Nothing at stake in Dragonball anymore???

[Skar]

Tension in mainstream comes mainly from the way the action is made and plot progression.

Its completely erroneous to believe that tension in mainstream depends on the actual fear of the lasting deaths of the most relevant characters. The audience already knows that is not a significant danger. At most it can have deaths of secondary characters but that helps more with the "feels" moments than with tension, because if the movie doesn't build its tension on significantly more than the fact that a secondary character died, it won't be that death that will help much, and Dragon Ball has never been much of a tearjerker.

Therefore, like I said, I think its a false problem.

I can agree that there's some minor tension but not anywhere close to what it used to be since it's all temporary. Once Porunga's unlimited resurrections was introduced the the idea of long-lasting consequence was gone. At least before death still had a meaning because Shenron could only resurrect people once. Can you honestly say was as much tension or suspense during the Buu saga and Battle of Gods than during the Saiyan and Freeza saga? Dragonball wasn't a tearjerker but it did have more emotional moments earlier on than later. Piccolo's death during the Saiyan saga was emotional because at that time we didn't know if he'll be brought back. #16's "death" was emotional since he wasn't able to be rebuilt. Those were more emotional for me that all the deaths during the Buu saga since I knew they still had the Namek Dragonballs. Krillin's first two deaths were emotional because there was a chance he wouldn't be wished back but the third death was so obvious that he would be resurrected that it happened off screen along with every other secondary character. Gohan, Trunks, and Goten's first death happened when they were unconscious and the reaction was just an angry Vegeta for a panel or two. The story doesn't even try to make their deaths seem meaningful anymore. What are you hoping to see in the movie that adds tension and something we haven't see before?

They still have to beat the villain in order to use the Dragon Balls to fix all the collateral damage afterwards, so there will always be a degree of tension in that regard. Of course, that's just in universe - we all know they'll win in the end eventually, but that's been the case since the series began.

Well we know the heroes are always going to win but sometimes we wonder what they might lose in the process. They always gain something from the battle like experience, ability, friends, whatever but the problem is there's no chance that they'll ever permanently lose anything.

(There are other parts of the movie that I thought were forced like Freeza being confident he could surpass Goku who surpassed Buu when he can't even sense energy and has no idea how strong Buu is.

The movie hasn't come out yet.

Well the two manga chapters are part of the movie right? Freeza somehow knows about Buu and somehow knows exactly how long it would take him to surpass Goku from that. The only information he has about Buu is that he was told to avoid him.

[JamesOwnz]

Bigger issue is having these movies take place before and not after the end of the manga.

[Rocketman]

They can't even get a scar now, since we know they don't have one when Uub comes around.

[TJVY]

Yeah I agree with this thread, for me there was definitely a sense of worry for my favourite characters as the story progressed. The sense of dread ceased to exist once the Cell Games were over because of the dragon balls, I even thought that senzu beans were a tad overused at times.

Videl vs. Spopovich was a great brutal moment that I considered to be pretty powerful, wish more had came of that rather than the usual senzu-treatment.

[rereboy]

Can you honestly say was as much tension or suspense during the Buu saga and Battle of Gods than during the Saiyan and Freeza saga?

Battle of Gods and the Buu saga had less tension because they were goofier and were more light-hearted in tone than the Saiyan and Freeza saga, not because the reader actually thought members of the main cast would die and stay dead when everything was said and done in any of those arcs.

A good example of tension that has already been mentioned is Videl VS Spopovich. Obviously, no one actually feared any outcome besides everything being fine at the end of it, but, due to how it was handled, how it was constructed, and the tone for it, there's good tension in it.

Like I mentioned, the way things are handled and the tone for it are what makes tension in mainstream. While other mainstream shows simply will not kill off characters that are too relevant, in DB they die but are brought back. At the end of the day both end up being equivalent because the audience knows to expect for everything to work out. Hence, the dragon balls killing tension in Dragon Ball being erroneous, imo.

(Another good example, this time from outside of Dragon Ball, is the Toriko manga. There's practically no deaths (from the good guys) and the reader knows not to expect it but it has constantly great tension simply due to how the author handles things.)

[UpFromTheSkies]

Come on, did you really ever think anything was at stake? It's a kids manga, not Game of Thrones, the bad guy is never going to win and take over the universe.

[Skar]

Battle of Gods and the Buu saga had less tension because they were goofier and were more light-hearted in tone than the Saiyan and Freeza saga, not because the reader actually thought members of the main cast would die and stay dead when everything was said and done in any of those arcs.

There are many goofy and comedic animes with more tension than the Buu saga or Battle of Gods. Gurren Lagann and One Piece were more ridiculous at times than Dragonball ever was but there was still more tension. When Kamina died in Gurren Lagann and Ace and Whitebeard in One Piece there was a sense of loss for the main characters. There wasn't really any of that during the Buu saga. Toriyama tried to make it a little serious towards the beginning with Videl vs Spopavich, Vegeta's sacrifice, and the thought that Gohan was killed by Buu but it wasn't as dramatic as earlier sagas because we knew they would be wished back. After that it kinda gave up on being serious with most of the major character deaths being off screen. Before the Cell Games Goku was upset when he heard about Cell killing the army which was he decided to get another Guardian but during the Buu saga he didn't think it was a big concern that everyone on the planet was being killed because he knew he teleport to Namek if he needed to again. After they Freeza saga the Nameks found a different home world instead of restoring the original Namek so that could be why Goku was little shook up when the Earth was destroyed because at that time we didn't know if the Dragons could restore entire planets.

I'm still wondering what could happen in FnF that could compare to anything we've seen before? Everyone who's joining the battle has been killed at least twice besides Gohan who has only been killed once. Would the fanbase really be shocked or surprised if Krillin or Tien get killed for a third time? I honestly was more surprised in Battle of Gods that Yamcha didn't get killed or was on the verge of death because I've gotten so used to that happening to him every saga.

Like I mentioned, the way things are handled and the tone for it are what makes tension in mainstream. While other mainstream shows simply will not kill off characters that are too relevant, in DB they die but are brought back. At the end of the day both end up being equivalent because the audience knows to expect for everything to work out. Hence, the dragon balls killing tension in Dragon Ball being erroneous, imo.

There could be different magnitudes of tension so it wouldn't really be all equivalent. There's tension in Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh and there's even tension in a chess tournament. However the tension during a friendly competition can't really compare to tension of losing a loved one or close friend permanently. The difference comes from what they could possibly lose even after winning the fight. There's tension when Ash is engaging in a Pokemon battle but the only lasting effect was that his pride was hurt a little for losing the match.

Come on, did you really ever think anything was at stake? It's a kids manga, not Game of Thrones, the bad guy is never going to win and take over the universe.

Did you read the opening comment? It didn't mention anything about the villain winning in the end.

[rereboy]

There are many goofy and comedic animes with more tension than the Buu saga or Battle of Gods. Gurren Lagann and One Piece were more ridiculous at times than Dragonball ever was but there was still more tension.

Because they handled variations of style masterfully and even though they are pretty comedic, they can switch to tense action easily and do it pretty well. That's all. The Buu arc pretty much never wanted to be tense and BOB even less.

Btw, by mentioning One Piece as an example of good tension you aren't doing any favors to your argument since One Piece shows exactly what I'm talking about. One Piece goes out of its way to never kill anyone and, when it does (only in flashbacks and one single time regarding a secondary character) its much more about the feels than the tension.

There could be different magnitudes of tension so it wouldn't really be all equivalent. There's tension in Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh and there's even tension in a chess tournament. However the tension during a friendly competition can't really compare to tension of losing a loved one or close friend permanently. The difference comes from what they could possibly lose even after winning the fight. There's tension when Ash is engaging in a Pokemon battle but the only lasting effect was that his pride was hurt a little for losing the match.

There's no real difference between the tension of a mainstream shonen in which you know that the most relevant characters won't die because its a mainstream manga, and the tension of a mainstream manga that you know that the most relevant characters might die but won't stay dead. That's my point.

You are arguing like its so different knowing that if they die they will come back from knowing that they won't die. I see no significant difference. It all boils down to knowing that in this genre the good guys will win, everything will work out, and so on. I don't see how anyone can have a problem with the Dragon Balls and not have a problem with the entire genre... Doesn't the entire genre kill tension, then?

[Skar]

Because they handled variations of style masterfully and even though they are pretty comedic, they can switch to tense action easily and do it pretty well. That's all. The Buu arc pretty much never wanted to be tense and BOB even less.

I don't think the Buu saga could've added tension if it wanted to. Almost every character we've ever known as killed and it wasn't a big deal. We know that Gohan, Goten, and Trunks were fine in Other World and King Yemma could've easily allowed them to keep their bodies and help out Goku and Vegeta. The only real tension during the final battle was Vegeta having the risk of being wiped out of existence since he was already dead but I'm pretty sure that was only revealed at that time.

Btw, by mentioning One Piece as an example of good tension you aren't doing any favors to your argument since One Piece shows exactly what I'm talking about. One Piece goes out of its way to never kill anyone and, when it does (only in flashbacks and one single time regarding a secondary character) its much more about the feels than the tension.

I'm not sure how One Piece helps your argument. I never took One Piece that seriously until I saw that the characters could die. Before that I thought it was only intended to be a comedy only. In Gurren Lagann we know characters can die but it was still a major shock when the main character died. Nothing that shocking could happen in Dragonball unless both sets of Dragonballs disappear. I keep asking what could happen in FnF that could surprise us and isn't something we've already seen before but I'm not getting any examples.

There's no real difference between the tension of a mainstream shonen in which you know that the most relevant characters won't die because its a mainstream manga, and the tension of a mainstream manga that you know that the most relevant characters might die but won't stay dead. That's my point.

You are arguing like its so different knowing that if they die they will come back from knowing that they won't die. I see no significant difference. It all boils down to knowing that in this genre the good guys will win, everything will work out, and so on. I don't see how anyone can have a problem with the Dragon Balls and not have a problem with the entire genre... Doesn't the entire genre kill tension, then?

No because the entire genre isn't like that. Good guys always win but not everything works out in the end so that's the difference between Dragonball now and other shonen where death is allowed. In Dragonball it's guaranteed that everything will work out and there will be no permanent consequences unless both Earth and New Namek are in danger. In other shonen where death is allowed it's guaranteed that the good guys will win but not that they'll all survive. To me Dragonball has about as much tension as those friendly competition shonen like Pokemon because their tension is only in the moment. Once the battle is said and done there's no serious loss to the heroes that they can't easily recover from.

[Mystic Tien]

I keep asking what could happen in FnF that could surprise us and isn't something we've already seen before but I'm not getting any examples.

I still remember that thing about the characters being killed by demons not being able to successfully go in the afterlife. It is sad that Toriyama completely forgot about it. He could especially well use it in Buu saga with Dabura.

[sayian_nation_]

I keep asking what could happen in FnF that could surprise us and isn't something we've already seen before but I'm not getting any examples.

I still remember that thing about the characters being killed by demons not being able to successfully go in the afterlife. It is sad that Toriyama completely forgot about it. He could especially well use it in Buu saga with Dabura.

What about the rule that if you die once and are revived back with the dragonballs, the second time you die you can't be revived. Did they throw that rule out the window? I'm currently reviewing the series can't remember it they did or not.

[sour_eraser]

I keep asking what could happen in FnF that could surprise us and isn't something we've already seen before but I'm not getting any examples.

I still remember that thing about the characters being killed by demons not being able to successfully go in the afterlife. It is sad that Toriyama completely forgot about it. He could especially well use it in Buu saga with Dabura.

What about the rule that if you die once and are revived back with the dragonballs, the second time you die you can't be revived. Did they throw that rule out the window? I'm currently reviewing the series can't remember it they did or not.

Before BoG I'm pretty sure the Dragon Balls had that restriction but post BoG no one knows for sure. I mean, Shenron can apparently only grant 1 wish, so that means Dende changed the condition of the wishes.

[rereboy]

I never took One Piece that seriously until I saw that the characters could die.

I think this statement of yours pretty much summarizes the difference of opinion in this discussion.

I couldn't disagree more with that statement, to say the least.

As to why, I think I've already explained the best as I could. Tension in mainstream, to me, derives from how the action and the plot is handled. Without a good handling of that, there could be tons of deaths and there still would be no tension. Relating tension with death is erroneous to say the least, especially in mainstream, and I don't understand people who can't enjoy tension in a mainstream movie, manga and whatnot unless they actually believe good guys might die at the end of it.

Now, don't get me wrong, I agree that death and the possibility of death can complement the handling of tension and, if done properly, can elevate the product into other heights, but I don't agree than in something in the genre of Dragon Ball, not having people dying is actually a problem, because that's what is expected in the genre.

[Skar]

What about the rule that if you die once and are revived back with the dragonballs, the second time you die you can't be revived. Did they throw that rule out the window? I'm currently reviewing the series can't remember it they did or not.

Shenron is still restricted to one resurrection but Porunga doesn't have a limit to how many times he can revive someone.

I never took One Piece that seriously until I saw that the characters could die.

I think this statement of yours pretty much summarizes the difference of opinion in this discussion.

I couldn't disagree more with that statement, to say the least.

As to why, I think I've already explained the best as I could. Tension in mainstream, to me, derives from how the action and the plot is handled. Without a good handling of that, there could be tons of deaths and there still would be no tension. Relating tension with death is erroneous to say the least, especially in mainstream, and I don't understand people who can't enjoy tension in a mainstream movie, manga and whatnot unless they actually believe good guys might die at the end of it.

Now, don't get me wrong, I agree that death and the possibility of death can complement the handling of tension and, if done properly, can elevate the product into other heights, but I don't agree than in something in the genre of Dragon Ball, not having people dying is actually a problem, because that's what is expected in the genre.

Not to be rude but I think you just focused in on that sentence to ignore the point in the rest of the comment. I thought One Piece was intended to be only a comedy and that characters were only meant to get beat up a little so it was a big shock when major characters were killed. I never said that only death can bring tension to a story and I gave examples of other stories that could have tension without death. In Dragonball characters could die and that was used to bring some tension into the story. Throughout the series Shenron could only revive people once so death actually had a meaning. There was a sense of loss for the characters because they didn't know and at the time we didn't know if those characters would be wished back. Dragonball started as a gag manga and then had a more serious tone from the King Piccolo saga to the Cell Games. It was around the time of the Cell Games that Goku found New Namek which pretty much guaranteed they had Porunga in case someone dies again. That could be why the Buu saga went back to the gag roots because it would've been very difficult for it be as serious as the previous sagas. We knew and the characters knew that they have Porunga to rely on so no one had a reason to take their deaths seriously.

I keep asking the same question about what could happen in the FnF that we haven't seen before or could surprise us but you haven't given me any examples yet. That's the reason I made this thread in the first place.

[rereboy]

Not to be rude but I think you just focused in on that sentence to ignore the point in the rest of the comment. I thought One Piece was intended to be only a comedy and that characters were only meant to get beat up a little so it was a big shock when major characters were killed. I never said that only death can bring tension to a story and I gave examples of other stories that could have tension without death. In Dragonball characters could die and that was used to bring some tension into the story. Throughout the series Shenron could only revive people once so death actually had a meaning. There was a sense of loss for the characters because they didn't know and at the time we didn't know if those characters would be wished back. Dragonball started as a gag manga and then had a more serious tone from the King Piccolo saga to the Cell Games. It was around the time of the Cell Games that Goku found New Namek which pretty much guaranteed they had Porunga in case someone dies again. That could be why the Buu saga went back to the gag roots because it would've been very difficult for it be as serious as the previous sagas. We knew and the characters knew that they have Porunga to rely on so no one had a reason to take their deaths seriously.

I keep asking the same question about what could happen in the FnF that we haven't seen before or could surprise us but you haven't given me any examples yet. That's the reason I made this thread in the first place.

Not at all, I just chose that sentence to focus my response because I felt that was the most important thing.

And I continue to disagree with you greatly. In the first chapter of one piece, you have a guy getting his arm ripped out to save a kid from being eaten so I hardly see how One Piece was intended to be only a comedy, how its characters were only meant to get beat up a little, and how you only changed your mind about that when you saw someone die.

Finally, I disagree about your sentiment about early Dragon Ball and how there was something to lose then and not now. If Dragon Ball had no Dragon Balls to save people, characters simply wouldn't die like they did. Characters died because there was Dragon Balls and ways to bring back the Dragon Balls when they had been destroyed, and even the reader/watcher didn't actually believe that they wouldn't find a way to fix it. For example, even in my first watch of Dragon Ball as a kid, I simply didn't actually believe that they wouldn't find a way to fix things when Piccolo Daimao killed Krillin, Roshi, Chaotzu and Shenlong, even though I couldn't see then how it would be done. And it was the same thing for the Saiyan arc. That's why I don't see much difference between Dragon Ball and another mainstream show with no Dragon Balls.

In Dragon Ball there's an illusion of loss because we know that everything can turn out alright and reverted with the Dragon Balls, and in other mainstream shows there's an illusion of danger of loss because we know that real loss simply won't happen.

I haven't given examples for FnF because I'm not a writer. I'm just a fan who appreciates shows and manga/comics and comments on them and their choices. If I could do their job better than them, frankly, I probably would be doing their jobs or something similar. All I can say for FnF is what I say in general: if they handle the action and plot progression right, there will be good tension. The watcher doesn't have to actually believe that they might die for good tension to exist. For an example, like I said before, read Toriko.

[Skar]

And I continue to disagree with you greatly. In the first chapter of one piece, you have a guy getting his arm ripped out to save a kid from being eaten so I hardly see how One Piece was intended to be only a comedy and that characters were only meant to get beat up a little, and how you only changed your mind about that when you saw someone die.

I admit I worded that wrong because I had trouble expressing the point. What I meant is that in One Piece death was never part of the story. The format the author used is that no matter how much they get hurt they won't die so it was a surprise when the author decided to have characters actually get killed. The tone of the story changes and the characters have to be more careful because there's now a possibility they won't survive until the next saga. After that death became more common because the author already went that far.

In Dragonball, it was the opposite. I don't think Toriyama would have made a one-revival limit for Shenron if that wasn't meant to add some suspense in the story. We had no idea there was another set of Dragonballs out there and that their Dragon didn't have a revival limit. Goku's transformation was triggered by the thought that Krillin wouldn't be wished back. That could be why Gohan's SSJ2 transformation had to be triggered by #16's death because he was the only one there that couldn't actually be revived. The tone changed in the Buu saga and Battle of Gods and so did the character's reaction to death. The story didn't take itself as seriously as it did before. In Battle of Gods, Beerus wasn't an evil villain bent on destroying or taking over the universe. The movie was enjoyable because the tension didn't come from any sense of danger since we knew there wasn't any but from the new rivalry between Goku and Beerus. It reminded me of early Dragonball there wasn't really any threat to Goku and his goal was to train and win the world tournament. I guess the story came full circle and Goku is back to just being a student wanting to surpass the best out there.

In FnF, it feels like it's trying to force a more serious tone. That's probably why they came up with an excuse for why Gotenks and Mr. Buu weren't there. Gotenks was a silly character but he was never as reckless as the adults and it's not like he ever endangered any of his friends. The original Freeza saga was probably had the most at stake because both sets of Dragonballs could've ceased to exist so I think it would be difficult for us to suspend our disbelief and pretend this movie can get anywhere close to that. We know and the characters know they have Porunga to rely on and Goku and Vegeta have fusion as an option. Back during the Freeza saga when Goku wanted to take a second to think he had to do it underwater but now he has Instant Transmission so he could possibly teleport to Dende or any other place in a second. I don't know if Beerus and Whis would help since they seem to be neutral but if they did show up and Freeza attacked one of them then I imagine he wouldn't last long. For me it's harder to take this movie as seriously as the original Freeza saga considering how many back-up plans the Z fighters have this time around. It's possible that the trailers were misleading on purpose and there's more to this movie than just Freeza coming back really strong. If not I hope that the next movie goes back to being honest with what Dragonball is now and doesn't try take itself seriously or have us pretend that there's any serious threat to the heroes. It worked in Battle of Gods so I think it could work again.

In Dragon Ball there's an illusion of loss because we know that everything can turn out alright with the Dragon Balls, and in other mainstream shows there's an illusion of danger of loss because we know that real loss simply won't happen.

Not sure what you meant here. If an author incorporates death into his story then real loss does happen. It's only in stories where they opt out of having a character die that it becomes impossible no matter how dangerous the situation becomes. If Shenron could grant unlimited revivals since the beginning of Dragonball then I would agree but there was a clear difference between how death was treated before and after they found out Porunga doesn't have that limit.

I haven't given examples for FnF because I'm not a writer. I'm just a fan who appreciates shows and manga/comics and comments on them and their choices. If I could do their job better than them, frankly, I probably would be doing their jobs or something similar. All I can say for FnF is what I say in general: if they handle the action and plot progression right, there will be good tension. The watcher doesn't have to actually believe that they might die for good tension to exist. For an example, like I said before, read Toriko.

Well you can be a fan and still come up with ideas. The premise of the movie sounds like a bad fan fiction idea but even then I'm still trying to keep my hopes up. Fan work are usually criticized for being lazy and recycling old ideas and I think official work should be held at a slightly higher standard than anything fanmade. I guess we'll find out in a week or two when the complete summary comes out.

[rereboy]

Not sure what you meant here.

I meant that in a mainstream show you won't get "real" loss because the actual relevant characters won't die. Like I stated before, at most, you might have the death of secondary characters when death exists at all for the good guys, and that kind of death exists even in Dragon Ball even though its pretty rare, like, for example, when Guru died.

Therefore, like I stated, in mainstream shows you get the illusion of the danger of real loss because the real loss won't actually happen.

Meanwhile, in Dragon Ball, they actually die but are brought back. So, in that case you don't have the illusion of the danger of real loss, you have the illusion of real loss. There's real loss, but its reverted afterwards.

[Rocketman]

I think part of it is there are soooooo many options now. The Buu Arc introduced so many new characters and powers and powerups and potential powerups that anything new has to either go out of its way to say why they aren't being used, just don't use it and pretend nobody notices, or give it a tiny glimmer and then throw it away.

I mean, bog works exactly the same if it's set after the Cell Arc. Freesurrection could damn near use the characters from Mecha Freesa's arrival and turn out the same.

[Skar]

Not sure what you meant here.

I meant that in a mainstream show you won't get "real" loss because the actual relevant characters won't die. Like I stated before, at most, you might have the death of secondary characters when death exists at all for the good guys, and that kind of death exists even in Dragon Ball even though its pretty rare, like, for example, when Guru died.

Therefore, like I stated, in mainstream shows you get the illusion of the danger of real loss because the real loss won't actually happen.

That depends on the story. I gave the example of Gurren Lagann because the main character does die there. When an author does allow death in their story then either the main character survive against all odds and only minor characters die or the main characters die in a big epic sacrifice. In DBZ, the big epic sacrifice happened so many times that it lost its meaning. The fans could only suspend their disbelief as long as the idea is consistent. For example, we accept that the Saiyans have an irrational desire for a good fight and they put themselves in danger for it. The Cell was entirely preventable if it wasn't for Goku and Vegeta wanting to let Gero release the cyborgs. It was also their fault that Buu was released. In other stories decisions like these would be considered stupid but we accept them because it was presented as their nature and it was consistent throughout the story.

With death it was clear during the Buu saga that it was no longer a big deal. Goku was capable of killing Fat Buu but instead all he did was distract him long enough for Trunks to retrieve the Dragon Radar. He wanted them to become the heroes and he wasn't too concerned with millions of people being slaughtered because they could wish them back later. Like I said most major character deaths happened off screen so the author didn't even try to make them look as tragic as the deaths earlier in the story. In the final battle against Kid Buu, Goku acknowledges that the Spirit Bomb wasn't their only option and that they could've brought Gotenks and Gohan to help them fight. If all of a sudden in a future movie the character started pretending that death was serious again and suddenly started forgetting all their options then that would be inconsistent with what we were shown during the Buu saga and later Battle of Gods.

[coola]

I've recently read final volume of manga, and i just love, how Goku said "Don't worry about damage Buu does to the universe, we have Dragon Balls" right after Old Kaioshin said, that using Dragon Balls is very dangerous, Eh Goku
That's what i like about DBGT and Malik's DBNA, they expand on Toriyama's idea that you can't keep using Dragon Balls without consequences and someday, even Z-Warriors and their families have to die.