General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

[Dyno]

Yes, I say Bardock special isn't canon. Minus neither.

Bardock Special was written by Takao Koyama, not Toriyama, so can't be canon.

Dragon Ball Minus is part of Jaco the Galactic Patrolman, a spin off, like Neko Majin, that, in my opinion, can't be considered Dragon Ball canon. We can't consider Onio a canonic character because he only appears in Neko Majin (a spin off). In the same way, we can't consider Tight a canonic Dragon Ball character because she only appears in Jaco(another spin off), so Bulma hasn't got a sister. So, if Jaco is not canonic Dragon Ball, Minus (a part of that Spin-off), can't be Dragon Ball canon.

Tarble's OVA was written by another person and its manga version was written by Ooishi Naho. You don't consider Tarble to be canon as well, not only I suppose, you musn't as well, following your logic.

Lol, dude... Lol. That's indeed a good point of you.

[Goe]

About "Son Goku and his friends return", That film isn't canon because OVA's story was written by Takao Koyama, and manga was made By Ooishi Naho...that's right...theoretically, because Toriyama could made that story canon if he wants. In BoG, Bulma mentioned Vegeta's brother, so is a canonic fact that Vegeta has a brother. I guess that brother is Tarble...so Toriyama may consider "Son Goku and his friends return" as canon.

In any case, and as I have already said, although Tarble is mentioned in BoG, there aren't mentions to Avo/Cado or Gure, so we must wait to assure "Son Goku and his friends return", is canon or not. If Toriyama makes a new film with continuty of that story, we will consider that film canon.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Well, the original draft of the JSAT was written by Toriyama. Then after further revisions Takao Koyama, it became the OVA we know, and then Naho Ooishi adapted it into a 2-part manga. For what it's worth, Toriyama was Ooishi's supervisor in this, he liked the manga adaptation more than the anime, he talked as if it was 2 extra chapters of the original manga, and it would have been him that would have drawn it if he wasn't too old. And then, Tarble is mentioned in his BoG.

Take all of these as you will.

[Noah]

I know how people like to discuss what is official canon

but I have this question, can't we just make our own canon?

I mean, If someone wants to just consider the anime, movies that seems to fit (9, 13, 14), specials and GT and discard all the rest, would they be wrong for doing this?

[Lord Beerus]

I know how people like to discuss what is official canon

but I have this question, can't we just make our own canon?

I mean, If someone wants to just consider the anime, movies that seems to fit (9, 13, 14), specials and GT and discard all the rest, would they be wrong for doing this?

Anybody can make their own Dragon Ball canon. As Dragon Ball really technically doesn't have a canon to begin with.

[Noah]

Anybody can make their how Dragon Ball canon. As Dragon Ball really technically doesn't have a canon to begin with.

You got my point, it's not like we got a guide that states what is official canon to the whole series

[Analytical Delusion]

My initial thinking is that canon/the primary continuity should include everything directly written/stated by AT (manga, films, interviews, etc.). I do think this is a dangerous mindset though, because what happens when he:

• produces character designs for filler/movies/GT/games?
• acknowledges filler/movies/GT/games in interviews?

I don't think retcons/corrections/rewrites are a huge deal. There are some errors in the manga obviously (Trunks mentioning 19/20, Vegeta's PL against the Ginyu Force prior to the Kanzenban change, etc.), so I think the corrected manga has to serve as the base. BoG/Jaco/DB-/FnF have to exist in this continuity in my opinion, due to AT's involvement. I'm a big fan of world building, and think it's an integral part of story telling, but I'm very much opposed to incorporating elements of the guidebooks that are *not* directly attributed to statements/interviews by AT. DBO is tough, since it seems Xenoverse overwrote it, while sharing a fair deal of the same lore. I really liked the timeline (especially Goku/Vegeta going out together in a supernova-esque duel), but since it's a dead product, I think one would need to do some in-depth analysis.

I do enjoy EoB and the three "side stories" (Piccolo/Vegeta/Future Trunks), as well as the fact that the JSAT special exists. As for the issues mentioned above, my current position is that character designs by AT are not part of the primary continuity. However, if AT provided background, and expanded on the ideas, I feel comfortable including them in my canon.

[FortuneSSJ]

I know how people like to discuss what is official canon
but I have this question, can't we just make our own canon?
I mean, If someone wants to just consider the anime, movies that seems to fit (9, 13, 14), specials and GT and discard all the rest, would they be wrong for doing this?

Yes, we can!
I ignore DB minus and love BOG and both were made by our man Toriyama.

[Dyno]

Well, I do mix Dragon Ball Minus with Bardock's TV Special, they both can work together if you want.

[Lord Beerus]

Well, I do mix Dragon Ball Minus with Bardock's TV Special, they both can work together if you want.

Dragon Ball Minus and TV special can co-exist perfectly. Dragon Ball Minus can take place prior to the events of the TV special and you'd have to cut out all the scenes of baby Goku.

[xmysticgohanx]

Does Gotenks turn SSJ in the manga version of Yo Son Goku?

[Dyno]

Does Gotenks turn SSJ in the manga version of Yo Son Goku?

Yes. Including the failed version was done.

[Dorexx]

Can't believe this is still discussed to this day. Every single bit of official story, information, idea happened and is "real", and none of it less "real" or more than another. DBGT happened in one universe, DBO happened in another universe, if the new movies are going to diverge into yet another universe then that one will happen as well. The Bardock TV Special happened and so did DB Minus in the same manner; neither of them have to cease to exist or be ignored because of the existence of the other. Every single movie happened; "But when did movie X take place? It doesn't make sense!" Answer: in another universe. "that odd story in video game X is just a what-if, and it's a video game, it didn't really happen; Wrong. It did happen, and (again) if it can't be placed within the "main" universe, it's another universe. I would even go as far as to say that this applies to anything unofficial/fan-made, but at the very least and as far as official material goes, and for God's sake, let's all accept this as the "default" point of view and stop arguing about it in nearly every single discussion about anything DB, if it's still not too late and we didn't already kill the franchise we all love through our stupidity.

[FoolsGil]

Might I present, the Expanded Universe?

Beyond the realm of Dragonball for various Reasons
These Universes are self contained, and don't alter or affect the series in any way
Universe A-Episode of Bardock
Universe B-Neko Majin Z
Universe C-Dragonball Heroes
Universe D-Dragonball Online
Universe E-Jaco the Galactic Patrolman
Universe F-Dr. Slump

The Nineteen Universes
That's right. Because of various interpretations and retellings, the world of Dragonball can be seen in likely 19 different ways. Of course my math could be off, but I'll explain how and why I see it

Part One-Pre Dragonball
1. Dragonball Minus
2. Bardock: Father of Goku
3. Mixture between Dragonball Minus and Bardock: Father of Goku

Each of these three universe segments would flow into the next three segments
Part Two-Dragonball
1. Dragonball Manga (Pilaf to 23rd Budokai)
2. Dragonball Anime (Pilaf to 23rd Budokai, plus Filler)
3. Dragonball Movieverse (Curse of the Blood Rubies, followed by Sleeping Princess in Devil's Castle,)

Blood Rubies and Sleeping Princess is special because unlike the other Dragonball Movies Mystical Adventure and Path to Power, they A)Don't contradict anything from the manga or anime besides being a retold story, and B) Aren't self contained. I believe that those two movies flow in and out of the series like a river, so after Sleeping Princess, the story moves on similar to the Manga or Anime.

From this point on, the universes start to break into different segments:

Dragonball Z Movieverse
Self contained movies or OVAs that have no impact on the series. No part of the previous series entries flow into this entry but each movie does base it's history and knowledge from the manga and anime. Each of the movies are in their own self contained dimension, but still part of a larger universe. Though they aren't Z Movies, Mystical Adventure and Path to Power are placed here.
-World's Strongest
-Tree of Might
-Lord Slug
-Cooler's Revenge-Return of Cooler
-Super Android 13
-Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan-Broly: Second Coming-Bio Broly
-Bojack Unbound
-Fusion Reborn
-Wrath of the Dragon
-Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans
-Mystical Adventure
-Path to Power

Part Three Dragonball Z
The Dragonball manga, anime, and movieverse flow down here to various effects. The Dragonball Manga, flow into the the Dragonball Z Manga. The Dragonball Anime, flow into two versions of the Dragonball Z Anime, and the Dragonball Movies, flow into the Z Manga and both Z Animes

1. Dragonball Z Manga-Saiyan Saga to Buu Saga, History of Trunks, Yo! Son Goku, Battle of Gods, Revival of F
2. Dragonball Z Anime(1)-Dead Zone, Saiyan Saga to Buu Saga, Filler, Garlic Jr. Saga, History of Trunks, Yo! Son Goku, Battle of Gods, Revival of F
3. Dragonball Z Anime (2)-Dead Zone, Saiyan Saga to Buu Saga, Filler, Garlic Jr. Saga, History of Trunks, Dragonball Movieverse, Dragonball GT-A Hero's Legacy

As for how I got how many universes there are within realm, Well as an example
Bardock: Father of Goku, could flow into three versions of the Dragonball Half(Manga/Anime/Movies) and then those three portions of the Dragonball half flow into the Dragonball Z Half, and out produces six portions [Dragonball Manga-Dragonball Z Manga/Dragonball Anime-Dragonball Z Anime(1)/Dragonball Anime-Dragonball Z Anime(2)/Dragonball Movies-Dragonball Manga-Dragonball Z Manga/Dragonball Movies-Dragonball Anime-Dragonball Z Anime (1)/Dragonball Movies-Dragonball Anime-Dragonball Z Anime (2)] And multiply that by three, based on three versions of the Pre Dragonball entry. Add in the self contained Dragonball Z Movieverse, 19 Universes. Then take those universes outside the realm of Dragonball, you get 25 universes.

Of course I could be horribly wrong, but this is all just my theory. within this 'what is canon, what isn't' debate

[Mystic Tien]

Can't believe this is still discussed to this day. Every single bit of official story, information, idea happened and is "real", and none of it less "real" or more than another. DBGT happened in one universe, DBO online happened in another universe, if the new movies are going to diverge into yet another universe then that one will happen as well. The Bardock TV Special happened and so did DB Minus in the same manner; neither of them have to cease to exist or be ignored because of the existence of the other. Every single movie happened; "But when did movie X take place? It doesn't make sense!" Answer: in another universe. "that odd story in video game X is just a what-if, and it's a video game, it didn't really happen; Wrong. It did happen, and (again) if it can't be placed within the "main" universe, it's another universe. I would even go as far as to say that this applies to anything unofficial/fan-made, but at the very least and as far as official material goes, and for God's sake, let's all accept this as the "default" point of view and stop arguing about it in nearly every single discussion about anything DB, if it's still not too late and we didn't already kill the franchise we all love through our stupidity.

Completely agree with everything what you've said. It is exactly my position, I wonder why some people can't understand it, when even in-universe we have characters stating about the existence of alternate timelines and different universes.

[TheAldella]

I'm not sure if I've posted my opinion on the matter, but I'll do it anyway. I find that they are all apart of two timelines. One, being the comic/anime, the 2008 special, and New Movies. The other being the eighteen movies, then GT, with blanks to fill in ourselves. This leaves me with Path to Power being a sneak peek into a third timeline that we'll never know more about.

[Herms]

I think for me the key thing is that there's not much point in defining a canon unless you're going to actually do something with it. Write fanfiction, or create a fan RPG, or make a big timeline for the series, or a power level chart, or some such thing. And obviously, depending on what you're doing, the things that it will make sense to include in the canon will vary. There's obviously nothing inherently wrong in writing fanfiction that incorporates something from filler, or creating a timeline for the movies, or whatnot. And video games continue to incorporate everything from everything, because why not? So for me the problem with most of these canon debates is that in large part it's people trying to define a canon solely for the sake of having a canon. Apparently just so they can go "yep, that's canon" or shake their heads and say "nope, totally not canon".

[dalome]

I think the others stories or gt, are In their own unuverses. But not the 12 universes. Something else. And They are not a different Timeline.

Because no Matter If you Time travel, Freeza has no brother. He can't exist. If he had one, It couldn't be the same as cooler With the 5th form.

In dB multiverse. All universe happened because an event happened differently. But no Matter what you change in the manga, some things from the movies can't happen.

[Dyno]

Just "some things"? I would say everything from 1 to 13 movies, that's why they aren't part of the manga continuity, that's why Toriyama himself said they are indeed in an another dimension.

[Duo]

The problem with this subject (and I've been quite guilty of this on various occasions) is the level of importance that is placed on it. Does my preference toward the manga actually take anything away from anybody else? Nope. Does Rocketman's (you dirty, dirty troll) notorious rejection of BoG make me enjoy the movie less? Not really! Want to believe GT is the real future for the story/characters? Have fun!

My "head continuity" isn't really based on anything other than my preferences, ultimately. And that rings true for just about everybody else. It's not hard to find like-minded people on the subject to enjoy discussion with, and it's also really easy not to get stupid toward people who have a different preference about the continuity of events.