What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

[Noah]

...if they wanted to re-introduce saiyans there are so many better ways...

Like which ideas?

Those two aren't necessarily true though. Freeza could have merely been in a small section of Hell, and the other villains could be chilling in pods waiting for reincarnation as well.

That's a good point of view.

Must agree. At least Freeza knows how lame is the name he gives to himself. Not to mention his design, of course.

I don't know why is Golden Freeza instead of "Futher Evolution Freeza" just like they did with past forms: "100% Full Power Freeza", "Final Form Freeza" and etc.

Would you accept them as canon if they weren't bad?

No, though that does make it easier.

This, lol

He also created Dr. Gero's great, great, great grandmother as well following the same reasoning though.

What? When this happened?

[Mystic Tien]

The character is one and the same, it was just interpreted differently.

Nah, for the character being one and the same he should have the same personality and history. Bardock from DBM and Bardock: Father of Goku have different personalities and history, hence why they are different characters.

A character doesn't need to be named or depicted in order to exist.

In-universe, yes. But this isn't an in-universe section. So yes, he need.

Since it was mentioned, it means the character that is Vegeta's brother does exist.

Exactly. Yet we still didn't see this character being portrayed by Toriyama.

Yes, it does. Denial is irrelevant against facts.

And here are facts:

Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru is one of Akira Toriyama’s highly-regarded “right-hand-men”, so to speak, responsible for a great deal of character designs during the TV series’ run, as well as commissioned to do an astonishing amount of official merchandise artwork (both in the past and present). In fact, there have been instances where Toriyama himself has not been sure whether a particular drawing was his or Nakatsuru’s!

Nakatsuru was initially given the task of designing Bardock and his crew for the upcoming TV special in the summer of 1990. His initial Bardock design remained relatively unchanged, but the designs and names for Bardock’s crew vastly differed from the final versions (click for larger version).

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/tidbits/the-h ... f-bardock/

Toei's original concept (based on Toriyama's vague description from the manga) was not used.

It was. It was "remained relatively unchanged", and it doesn't matter who changed what design and when, I am speaking about creating the character. Toriyama also created design of Broly, but would you go as far as to say that Toriyama created Broly as a character?

The final design was provided by Toriyama. Since Toriyama's defined the final look of the character (having previously established a few details in the manga), he was as much a creator as Toei. .

No, he wasn't. You are focusing on a design, while not speaking about the personality which defines the character. As the facts go, both character design and personality of Bardock was created by Toei, not Toriyama. You may see how Toriyama depicts Bardock in Dragon Ball Minus, this one is Toriyama's Bardock, based on Toei's Bardock from Bardock: Father of Goku.

Hence co-creation. How the character was used and interpreted after that is a completely different matter.

Yes, co-creation in terms of design, yet the initial design was made by Toei, and the personality of Bardock as well as everything else featured in Bardock: Father of Goku was made by Toei. And "how the character was used and interpreted after that is a completely different matter" Exactly! What Toriyama does with Bardock later in manga is a completely different matter, but as we go now, Bardock from the special Bardock: The Father of Goku is Toei's creation with a bit of help from Toriyama with Bardock's and his crew's designs.

The point is, the character's creation was provided by both Toei (through Nakatsuru, who named the character and provided a few details that remain in the final design) and Toriyama (who provided the initial details in the manga and the character's final design).

Yes, but Nakatsuru didn't provide a few details, he created the character which we know as Bardock, he created his original design, which Toriyama left "relatively unchanged", and Toei did everything else with Bardock, by drawing him for Bardock: Father of Goku, animating him and defining his personality.

And as you said before, what Toriyama did in manga is a completely different matter.

[Zephyr]

He also created Dr. Gero's great, great, great grandmother as well following the same reasoning though.

What? When this happened?

By virtue of Gero existing in the first place, he has to have such a family member. But we don't need this spelled out to us. So whether or not it is spelled out, the character "exists" in a sense already.

My point is that if we are taking Bardock to have "existed" because Toriyama implicitly hinted at his existence, then we must have taken him to have existed all along, as Goku must logically have had biological parents. Which would mean that Toriyama did create Bardock, and as we're hinted to his existence the moment we first saw Goku. Which means Toriyama implicitly hinted the existence of all other members of Goku's direct lineage in that moment as well.

[Gaffer Tape]

- C17 & C18's "real" names. (Names dont sound like human names... Lapis? Who names their son that?)

I'm not trying to sound snarky. I am legitimately asking this question: What kinds of names did you expect them to have? John and Mary? Almost none of the names in Dragon Ball sound like real "human names." Most of the names are food! Some are underwear. Why are stones off the table?

[ZaWarudoZ]

The things i'm going to mention, I may not consider them lame, but rather dissapointing or confusing, which is the fact that Freeza has the potencial to become stronger than Boo,(and that he somehow knows about the existence of), or even Beerus.
I mean i'm excited about the new movie, but Freeza getting this strong, kinda hard to believe.
And in how they introduced Beerus in Battle of Gods, I mean for me he's a pretty cool character, but like i felt in the movie they tried to make him intimidating, but then they had funny moments,(which to me didn't match well, but i still give points for them trying something new, rather bad guy, jus' 'cause). And like i don't see a character like Freeza actually bowing to him, or to have any sort of respect. To me he would rather die than to be Beerus's lackey.

[Dyno]

I'm not trying to sound snarky. I am legitimately asking this question: What kinds of names did you expect them to have? John and Mary? Almost none of the names in Dragon Ball sound like real "human names." Most of the names are food! Some are underwear. Why are stones off the table?

And what is funny is that he doesn't complain about "Pan", a being given that name from a human and a half-human. It is so odd. Who would call "Pan"? We have "Maki Gero", once a brillant human scientist. Who would call one's son "Maki Gero"?

[TripleRach]

Gohan is going to get his SSJG boost with green hair in the next upcoming movie, "Revival of B". He'll be playing the Green Ranger role from the original Super Sentai television series, and will replace both inferior coloured Saiyan Rangers. It'd make as much sense, and Gohan deserves it more.

http://s22.postimg.org/loz57p6xt/Gohan_Final.png
http://s18.postimg.org/ncmzs5mqh/Green_Ranger.png

This phrasing irks me, because "the original Super Sentai television series" is Himitsu Sentai Goranger (or Battle Fever J if you want to get nitpicky about the "Super" part). And Goranger had Mido Ranger, whose name actually means "Green Ranger." And there were numerous other greens before Dragon Ranger (the guy from Zyu with the dagger/flute).

Mido Ranger: http://i.imgur.com/0Iqk3sM.jpg

Anyway, I've been joking that Gokuu's hair has now gone through all of CMYK, but in reverse order. Black, yellow, magenta, cyan. New forms would ruin my joke, but I suppose it's inevitable if they keep doing new movies, and green is the most logical choice to come next.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm not trying to sound snarky. I am legitimately asking this question: What kinds of names did you expect them to have? John and Mary? Almost none of the names in Dragon Ball sound like real "human names." Most of the names are food! Some are underwear. Why are stones off the table?

And what is funny is that he doesn't complain about "Pan", a being given that name from a human and a half-human. It is so odd. Who would call "Pan"? We have "Maki Gero", once a brillant human scientist. Who would call one's son "Maki Gero"?

Uh, "Pan" is a legitimate name. In real life.

[Dyno]

I have seen variations. Which "Pan" could work as a nickname at max.

[Kamiccolo9]

I have seen variations. Which "Pan" could work as a nickname at max.

"Pan" has been a legitimate name at least as far back as ancient Greece. It is also an Indian name, but I'm not sure how common it is there.

[Noah]

I think she could be named Pandora

[Shinsa]

...if they wanted to re-introduce saiyans there are so many better ways...

Like which ideas?

To answer your question i cant really do as I'm not a writer or the creater of DB however possibilities that could have been explored are....
(I also realize i will prob get a lot of hate and disagreements about these few ideas as i literally just came up with them, but hey i think they would be a better start then BOG and Resurrection F)

1-Maybe vegeta you know being the prince of all saiyans and have the pride of a saiyan would want to maybe some how try and rebuild planet vegeta and become king. Since there are no pure blood saiyans, maybe he goes out to see if there are indeed survivors (new characters that are not brothers, fathers or any of the crap related to any of the characters) because it would be easy to write in that some could have been in hiding. If so, since vegeta was mostly raised by Freeza, goku a dumb fool, gohan/trunks half human a lot of his saiyan heritage would be lost thus creating some tension with the survivors. Or the survivors had to come up with new ways of living thus themselves also losing some of there culture and getting worse with the survivors new gen of saiyans. If that were the case then they'd have to write in something about king kai not being able to sense them or over looking that there were survivors (would rather have a small plot hole to create and start a much richer story)

2-Could be set 100 years in the future, goku is a legend and the super saiyan is again a legend. Planet Vegeta could have been rebuilt by king vegeta and his queen bulma (lol queen bulma) new cast of characters, meaning new cast of villians and the hunt for dragonballs can once again be something mystical with out characters being to OP or....the new series could not be called dragonball and maybe something else so that the focus wont have to be on the dragonballs because lets face it, they have really killed the show/manga making things less dire.

3-have a prequel series/special/manga or what ever that can fully explain the ethos of saiyans, to create continuity and balance with the friggin race with out create new stupid transformations.

4- maybe the story could be about how goku finally wants to know more about his heritage, so him and vegeta go out in search of what ever there could be from there kin. The saiyans were pretty much planet destroyers and could have been any where in the galaxy. So anything could still be out there! Clues to be found to maybe finding more saiyans or about there history.

5. If they wanted a quick stupid fix. Vegeta collects dragonballs and wishes for the saiyans and the planet to be revived...however i always thought unlike goku and the gang, vegeta actually respects the dead lol

These are just some ideas from some nobody on an internet forum that i pulled out of my @SS and wont even deny that they are better ideas then BOG, DB minus, EoB and son goku and friends return.

What DBZ lacks is character growth, every character is pretty much 2 dimensional. If the writers actually thought things out, simplified and did something different then they could truly have another awesome series or movie. again i will give Korra as an example of how to reinvent or do something bold with an already awesome show.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

What DBZ lacks is character growth, every character is pretty much 2 dimensional. If the writers actually thought things out, simplified and did something different then they could truly have another awesome series or movie. again i will give Korra as an example of how to reinvent or do something bold with an already awesome show.

What DBZ lacks is creativity, and character independance. Considering its storyboard formula is just so structured in a formulic fashion the same plots, twists and endings get so dull. Especially when hyped up only to give us another predictably underwhelming storyline of overrecycled plot devices, Villain motives and ignorance on the oversimplicity. Like Goku is the poster boy so nothing happens without him there especially now. Freeza being recycled from familiarity just to have his fight rehashed from Namek mixed with kid Buu's fight conditions.

"Oh look Freeza, you're strong but your ki is falling rapidly because....." Again.
"You fool, you can't beat me!!' (Blows up planet) Again... even after getting his ass kicked legitamently. Every time he fought a Super Saiyan.
"It just took me (X amount of unrealistic/random dating for 10x power.) Again.
"You're not taking him seriously Kakarot - Let me handle it....") Again.
"You didnt really beat Goku! Something else got in his way) Be it heart "virus" or a surprise attack.


Just the same thing over and over.

[Mystic Tien]

I think she could be named Pandora

Spoiler:

Wrong anime. But you have a point here

[Shinsa]

What DBZ lacks is character growth, every character is pretty much 2 dimensional. If the writers actually thought things out, simplified and did something different then they could truly have another awesome series or movie. again i will give Korra as an example of how to reinvent or do something bold with an already awesome show.

What DBZ lacks is creativity, and character independance. Considering its storyboard formula is just so structured in a formulic fashion the same plots, twists and endings get so dull. Especially when hyped up only to give us another predictably underwhelming storyline of overrecycled plot devices, Villain motives and ignorance on the oversimplicity. Like Goku is the poster boy so nothing happens without him there especially now. Freeza being recycled from familiarity just to have his fight rehashed from Namek mixed with kid Buu's fight conditions.

"Oh look Freeza, you're strong but your ki is falling rapidly because....." Again.
"You fool, you can't beat me!!' (Blows up planet) Again... even after getting his ass kicked legitamently. Every time he fought a Super Saiyan.
"It just took me (X amount of unrealistic/random dating for 10x power.) Again.
"You're not taking him seriously Kakarot - Let me handle it....") Again.
"You didnt really beat Goku! Something else got in his way) Be it heart "virus" or a surprise attack.


Just the same thing over and over.

I completely agree with you! There just doesnt seem to be any passion in DBZ anymore

[Lord Beerus]

What DBZ lacks is character growth, every character is pretty much 2 dimensional. If the writers actually thought things out, simplified and did something different then they could truly have another awesome series or movie. again i will give Korra as an example of how to reinvent or do something bold with an already awesome show.

What DBZ lacks is creativity, and character independance. Considering its storyboard formula is just so structured in a formulic fashion the same plots, twists and endings get so dull. Especially when hyped up only to give us another predictably underwhelming storyline of overrecycled plot devices, Villain motives and ignorance on the oversimplicity. Like Goku is the poster boy so nothing happens without him there especially now. Freeza being recycled from familiarity just to have his fight rehashed from Namek mixed with kid Buu's fight conditions.

"Oh look Freeza, you're strong but your ki is falling rapidly because....." Again.
"You fool, you can't beat me!!' (Blows up planet) Again... even after getting his ass kicked legitamently. Every time he fought a Super Saiyan.
"It just took me (X amount of unrealistic/random dating for 10x power.) Again.
"You're not taking him seriously Kakarot - Let me handle it....") Again.
"You didnt really beat Goku! Something else got in his way) Be it heart "virus" or a surprise attack.


Just the same thing over and over.

BOG kind defied that formula.

[Dyno]

BOG kind defied that formula.

Which Ressurrection of "F" should have done the same.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

BOG kind defied that formula.

No, Beerus broke it. Nothing happened at all in the movie outside what Beerus did to set it up. All the other characters were still stuck on script.
FnF completely ditched anything potentially new, let alone support continuity. It just brought us back to formula.

I completely agree with you! There just doesnt seem to be any passion in DBZ anymore

It might be Toriyama's train of thought still in DB mode where he sees the series as a gaggy-action story but more affiliates with the humour; because that at least he gets consistently right. Its the bigger elements he may have introduced too loosely that is so open-ended it screams for more depth, but he doesnt see it needing it. He just writes things as, "Well he was just born like that" and doesnt explore anything beyond it even if they don't make sense with the plot anymore.
Where as Toei was the side that wanted more depth into the mithos based on the plotlines for the movies being in the direction of what I want to see. Look at the first Broly movie, Wrath of the Dragon, The World strongest, Return/Revenge of Cooler, all of them had very detailed backgrounds and compare that to BoG and FnF movies with no plot at all directed by Toriyama. Just a Pokemon styled, happy-go-lucky, vaguely serious while self-parodied and almost episodic film.

Sure that may be what DB was supposed to be, but I think the series matured too far for it to still satisfy itself. I mean just look at the plot of FnF and how Freeza's character was being used. Just rehashing what he already did, because "thats how Freeza just is; he hates sayians" rather than expanding him in a way where he learns from his failure and tries for something bigger. Instead he & Goku make the same mistakes over again.

[fadeddreams5]

*Revives topic*

I dislike the influx of generic goofy, exaggerated anime faces:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

I only used BoG Vegeta as an example cause it's the easiest to find and he used to be a character that very RARELY expressed himself in such a way. It's become prominent in modern DBZ. For example, Golden Frieza has so many silly facial expressions that the figuarts toy ended up featuring goofy face plates. It completely goes against the character established in the series.

I don't recall this AT ALL in the anime, except during few moments that subverted the audience's expectations so much that they ended up being very amusing (e.g. Frieza blushing at the Ginyu Force; Frieza's face when his tail was bitten or got bitch slapped by SSJ Goku; Vegeta's expression when he learned Goku was offering Bulma nudes to the Old Kai; etc). Now, it's very frequent.

[Lord Beerus]

*Revives topic*

I dislike the influx of generic goofy, exaggerated anime faces:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

I only used BoG Vegeta as an example cause it's the easiest to find and he used to be a character that very RARELY expressed himself in such a way. It's become prominent in modern DBZ. For example, Golden Freeza has so many silly facial expressions that the figuarts toy ended up featuring goofy face plates. It completely goes against the character established in the series.

I don't recall this AT ALL in the anime, except during few moments that subverted the audience's expectations so much that they ended up being very amusing (e.g. Freeza blushing at the Ginyu Force; Freeza's face when his tail was bitten or got bitch slapped by SSJ Goku; Vegeta's expression when he learned Goku was offering Bulma nudes to the Old Kai; etc). Now, it's very frequent.

Those kind of facial reactions have been a part of Dragon Ball since, well, day 1. Especially, in the manga. The anime tends to tone down that nature for whatever reason.