What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy?

[Mystic Tien]

Actually, he was treated as a joke and was always used as a tool for humor, measuring stick or progressing the plot.

Right in his introduction, he is not stronger than Goku and has the quirk of "fear of girls".

He decides to steal the Dragon Balls because he wants to get rid of his fears so that he can get married.

His attempts always end up badly, except when it's useful for the plot.

In his most important interventions (Boss Rabbit and Oozaru Goku), Puar was just as important as him, meaning that he doesn't really accomplish much alone.

In the 21st tournament, he was used as measuring stick to build up Jackie Chang.

In the Baba tournament, he needed the intervention of Bulma's Boobs to win against the Invisible Man (even though he probably would have won if Baba didn't start to sing), and this is his ONLY major win against an opponent who isn't fodder in a solo fight in the entire series! Right after this, he was humiliated by the Mummy, to build up the Mummy and Goku.

In the 22nd tournament, he was used as a measuring stick to build up Tenshinhan, even though this time he looked more impressive.

In the 23rd tournament, Yamcha has his most impressive fighting moment, managing to impress and slightly hurt Kami with a completely original technique. Yet, despite this, Yamcha is still used for humor in the beginning of the fight and is kind of humiliated by it.

In the battle with the saiyans, Yamcha proves to be superior to the Saibamen, which means that he has impressive power, but he gets cocky and the Saibamen manages to kill him with a kamikaze attack, ending this fight with a tie. This means that Yamcha was once again used to build up the enemy and the stakes of the fight.

And with the cyborgs, Yamcha is once again used to show that the androids are serious business by almost dying at their hands.

Nah, he was a cool guy, who loved to fight.

Krillin wasn't stronger than Goku either in his introduction.

Yes, he was. This doesn't make a character joke.

Doesn't mean that the character is a joke.

Exactly. Didn't look like a joke at all.

This is more than 99,9% of Earthlings can even hope to do. By saying that Yamcha is a joke, is the same as saying that 99,9% of Earth's population is a joke.

Yeah, the Saibamen who was as strong as a guy from Saiyan Race, one of the most elite warrior races in the universe. And Yamcha beat him.

After that Yamcha was just a spectator at best, because Toriyama stopped giving a damn about humans.

In the end a lot of people forgot (I know that you mentioned it) that he was the one who cut Oozaru Goku's tail and saved Pilaf (who later released Piccolo Daimao), Bulma (who later gave birth to Trunks and built a Time Machine) and saved a whole ton of cities from rampaging ape. Not only that, but he saved Goku and Bulma from Monster Carrot as well. Puar helped him, but that doesn't matter, Puar is Yamcha's friend, Yamcha says Puar what he should do and Yamcha comes up with the actual plans (he was the one who came up with idea of cutting Goku's tail), etc. Goku was getting help pretty much every time in DBZ. He clearly wasn't just a joke in the beginning. Toriyama turned him into one. Just like he did with pretty much everyone else later.

[rereboy]

I think you pretty much just ignored the essence of what I was trying to say, but ok.

[Mystic Tien]

I think you pretty much just ignored the essence of what I was trying to say, but ok.

Nah, I got it. For some reasons you think that just because a character didn't defeat anyone strong, he is a joke now. It doesn't work like that.

[rereboy]

I think you pretty much just ignored the essence of what I was trying to say, but ok.

Nah, I got it. For some reasons you think that just because a character didn't defeat anyone strong, he is a joke now. It doesn't work like that.

Actually, my point was to show that Yamcha has always been used as a tool. Everything he does has the author's agenda behind it and any development he gets in the manga is pretty much secondary to his role as a tool for the story.

It ends up not mattering how strong he is compared to a normal human because his role in the story never ceases to be a tool.

Even when he is resurrected, his relationship with Bulma gets canned because the author wanted another saiyan, so even in that he was just a tool for the story.

I like Yamcha but, like others have stated, I don't expect him to be more than a tool because that's all he ever has, that was his role in the story.

[Attitudefan]

I think you pretty much just ignored the essence of what I was trying to say, but ok.

Nah, I got it. For some reasons you think that just because a character didn't defeat anyone strong, he is a joke now. It doesn't work like that.

Actually, my point was to show that Yamcha has always been used as a tool. Everything he does has the author's agenda behind it and any development he gets in the manga is pretty much secondary to his role as a tool for the story.

Actually, so had Goku. Goku could be considered a joke since he only really defeated Boo and Piccolo. He lost to every major villain and used as a measuring stick. Vegeta out fought Goku yet was nothing compared to Freeza who Trunks actually killed in an easier fashion than Goku ever did. Same with Cell.
Goku was crushed yet midget Krillin, Baby Gohan, and fat ass Yajirobi beat Vegeta. Even his Super Saiyan form was reduced to a joke by giving it to kids!

Goku does have more victories under his belt against the non major villains which helps bus case, but he's used may as much as Yamcha as a measuring stick to show the new big bad and debut a new character or form.

[Skar]

This is more than 99,9% of Earthlings can even hope to do. By saying that Yamcha is a joke, is the same as saying that 99,9% of Earth's population is a joke.

Yamcha is one of my favorite characters but I agree with Rereboy that his purpose was only to show off the power of the new villain. That doesn't necessarily mean he's a joke or a gag character just that the author never intended for him to have a central role in the story. Once the villains became too strong for Yamcha then Vegeta took the role of getting beat up to show off the strength of the new villain. After that Yamcha didn't really have a role anymore.

I think Yamcha was still an impressive character for making it as far as he did. It's the same way with Freeza's elites. In comparison to the strongest characters later on Zarbon or Dodoria are considered weak but in comparison to most inhabitants of the universe they were probably in the top 1%. I like to think Yamcha was at least as strong as them by the end.

[Mystic Tien]

I think you pretty much just ignored the essence of what I was trying to say, but ok.

Nah, I got it. For some reasons you think that just because a character didn't defeat anyone strong, he is a joke now. It doesn't work like that.

Actually, my point was to show that Yamcha has always been used as a tool. Everything he does has the author's agenda behind it and any development he gets in the manga is pretty much secondary to his role as a tool for the story.

It ends up not mattering how strong he is compared to a normal human because his role in the story never ceases to be a tool.

Even when he is resurrected, his relationship with Bulma gets canned because the author wanted another saiyan, so even in that he was just a tool for the story.

I like Yamcha but, like others have stated, I don't expect him to be more than a tool because that's all he ever has, that was his role in the story.

Yeah, but every single character was used as a tool by Toriyama to show something. It can be said about literally everyone. Like Vegeta exists just to make Goku look better. Or Gohan exists just to show, that despite all his training and potential, he will never surpass Goku, because he doesn't have fighter's spirit in him. Or like Tien exists to show that even humans with a lot of training can actually do something, if not much. Or like Krillin exists to make Goku enraged after him dying and reach new level of a power, beating the main villain. Or like Goten and Trunks exist to show that even prodigies, who are able to turn SSJ since very early age, won't be able to defeat any strong guys without proper training and cold resolve to do so.

[The Desert Bandit]

I think you pretty much just ignored the essence of what I was trying to say, but ok.

Nah, I got it. For some reasons you think that just because a character didn't defeat anyone strong, he is a joke now. It doesn't work like that.

Actually, my point was to show that Yamcha has always been used as a tool. Everything he does has the author's agenda behind it and any development he gets in the manga is pretty much secondary to his role as a tool for the story.

It ends up not mattering how strong he is compared to a normal human because his role in the story never ceases to be a tool.

Even when he is resurrected, his relationship with Bulma gets canned because the author wanted another saiyan, so even in that he was just a tool for the story.

I like Yamcha but, like others have stated, I don't expect him to be more than a tool because that's all he ever has, that was his role in the story.

The thing is, fans of Yamcha like myself may not expect Yamcha to shine (Although we may crack jokes or state things that AT should've done), but we do get upset when someone says stupid crap like "Yamcha is useless," or "Yamcha lost to a Saibaman." So, when most of us discuss positive things about him it's a breathe of fresh air from the rest of the internet which tends to scorn and ridicule him to no end.

Basically, most of the stuff we've been doing is stating things that CAN be done to boost his character or stating what we consider to be his accomplishments, purely because it's a rarity to see anything that resembles praise for him. In other words, I can see why some people would become annoyed with hearing Yamcha fans say a bunch of what-ifs and accomplishments in vain. I just think it's best to see it from our point of view-- We're giving light to his achievements and considering what could be/could've been done (Even though we know AT never going to give him a spotlight) to give Yamcha a pedestal as an escape from all the hate we see towards him.

Whether Yamcha is a joke or not, I see it as a good thing for the fans to break away from what AT intended for him to be and talk about him positively. Especially since he had so much potential throughout the series.

[Mystic Tien]

This is more than 99,9% of Earthlings can even hope to do. By saying that Yamcha is a joke, is the same as saying that 99,9% of Earth's population is a joke.

Yamcha is one of my favorite characters but I agree with Rereboy that his purpose was only to show off the power of the new villain. That doesn't necessarily mean he's a joke or a gag character just that the author never intended for him to have a central role in the story. Once the villains became too strong for Yamcha then Vegeta took the role of getting beat up to show off the strength of the new villain. After that Yamcha didn't really have a role anymore.

I think Yamcha was still an impressive character for making it as far as he did. It's the same way with Freeza's elites. In comparison to the strongest characters later on Zarbon or Dodoria are considered weak but in comparison to most inhabitants of the universe they were probably in the top 1%. I like to think Yamcha was at least as strong as them by the end.

The point which I disagreed originally was that Yamcha was always a joke character. And I don't actually think that author never intended for him to have a central role in the story. Even if Toriyama did come up with Goku being an alien in the earlier stage (that a lot of people said he didn't), I highly doubt that he thought up the concept of saiyans any time before Piccolo Jr saga. So Vegeta most likely didn't even exist in his mind in that time. So no thoughts about him replacing Yamcha could have ever appeared in Toriyama's mind that way. I am pretty sure that after he came up with such strong guys like Ginyu Force and Frieza, he just didn't know (or didn't want to) how to make humans relevant, so he instead kind of tossed them out, sometimes making them trying to help (like Tien did in Androids and Buu saga, or Krillin tried to help against Cell). The last time we saw a human being a part of a main group of fighters was Namek. After that we didn't see much of it. Pretty sure that Toriyama just didn't even want to think what to do with humans after Frieza having so many ridiculous transformations, which made him literally thousands times stronger for no exact reason. After that humans are just kinda there, like some spectators. And now, ironically enough, half-saiyans share the same fate, and are also just characters for being there (in case of Goten and Trunks, not even being there at all)

[EXBadguy]

People not realizing that the second half of DB(i.e. DBZ) isn't as lighthearted as the earlier half and not noticing the difference of tones.

[Zephyr]

People not realizing that the second half of DB(i.e. DBZ) isn't as lighthearted as the earlier half and not noticing the difference of tones.

Every time someone posts this, they make it sound as if they believe that everything in the "first half" and everything in the "second half" are like complete night and day. Like the Saiyan arc and the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai are like exact opposites in tone somehow.

Which is to say, that they're ignoring the gradual tonal shift that begins in the second story arc, and continues up through the Cell arc. Seamlessly. Without any real "night and day" cutoff point, whose supposed existence is heavily implied by these posts, but is yet never clearly and soundly identified.

It really comes off as a poor attempt to provide ad hoc justification for the "Z" portion being treated completely differently to the "pre-Z" portion, to the extent that it was here in the States. The fact that it relies on willful ignorance of the nature of the gradual tonal shift considerably weakens the strength of an already weak argument.

Yes, if you cut the single story into two halves and then interpret and compare them as two separate stories, one naturally will on average be more serious than the other. That doesn't really amount to much though, and the fact that Toei tossed a "Z" on the name and gave it new openings and ending songs doesn't change that.

[Lord Beerus]

People not realizing that the second half of DB(i.e. DBZ) isn't as lighthearted as the earlier half and not noticing the difference of tones.

Every time someone posts this, they make it sound as if they believe that everything in the "first half" and everything in the "second half" are like complete night and day. Like the Saiyan arc and the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai are like exact opposites in tone somehow.

Which is to say, that they're ignoring the gradual tonal shift that begins in the second story arc, and continues up through the Cell arc. Seamlessly. Without any real "night and day" cutoff point, whose supposed existence is heavily implied by these posts, but is yet never clearly and soundly identified.

It really comes off as a poor attempt to provide ad hoc justification for the "Z" portion being treated completely differently to the "pre-Z" portion, to the extent that it was here in the States. The fact that it relies on willful ignorance of the nature of the gradual tonal shift considerably weakens the strength of an already weak argument.

Yes, if you cut the single story into two halves and then interpret and compare them as two separate stories, one naturally will on average be more serious than the other. That doesn't really amount to much though, and the fact that Toei tossed a "Z" on the name and gave it new openings and ending songs doesn't change that.

Take a damn bow, Zephyr. You magnificently summed up the ridiculousness of fans treating everything that happened prior to Z as a completely different show.

[EXBadguy]

*shrug* I'm only saying the second half(Saiyan-Cell) just has less humor and lightheartedness than the first half. Sure, there's a tone shift in the first half, but it's still "meh" to me, at least...prior to King Piccolo.

I understand(*cough*to an*cough*extent*cough*) that bifurcating the portions can be akward.

[AM Reflection]

Whether the change was gradual or not, the fact that the early part of the story is very different from what came later remains the same. There may not have been a "night and day" cutoff point, but there was a turning point. There's a reason why DBZ became infinitely more popular than DB and it wasn't due to the addition of a letter to its title. The difference is obviously real.

[Adamant]

Whether the change was gradual or not, the fact that the early part of the story is very different from what came later remains the same. There may not have been a "night and day" cutoff point, but there was a turning point. There's a reason why DBZ became infinitely more popular than DB and it wasn't due to the addition of a letter to its title. The difference is obviously real.

And if there was a specific point where the series started taking on a more serious tone, that point was either the introduction of Tao Baibai or Tambourine killing Kuririn, neither of which were anywhere close to Toei's decision to slap a Z onto the title. That Z was never added to split the franchise into one non-serious and one serious half.

[AM Reflection]

Of course the PiccoIo Daimao arc also had serious things happening, but that was still a part of kid Goku's adventure and for a split to have occurred then would have made no sense. I imagine the Z was added where it was to signify how much had changed after the huge 5 year timeskip. It goes far beyond just "serious half" and "non-serious half." You now had Goku as a fully grown adult with child, the shift away from Goku as sole protagonist, the increased scale of the new adventures, the new style of the fighting and how it was presented ...all of these things make DBZ feel like a different series.

[jcogginsa]

i figure the Z happened so the merch would sell better

[Duo]

TOEI's division of the series with "Z" was definitely not placed close to the major tone shift in the story. Those seeds started with Taopaipai and made a full turn by the time Piccolo was happening. At the very least, the transition would have made more sense if they had placed it a bit earlier, when Goku became an adult. None of the changes in the five years after the 23rd Budokai compare to the changes that took place with the characters in the 3 years between Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Junior.

[jcogginsa]

TOEI's division of the series with "Z" was definitely not placed close to the major tone shift in the story. Those seeds started with Taopaipai and made a full turn by the time Piccolo was happening. At the very least, the transition would have made more sense if they had placed it a bit earlier, when Goku became an adult. None of the changes in the five years after the 23rd Budokai compare to the changes that took place with the characters in the 3 years between Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Junior.

Goku now had a kid, had a brother, was an alien, and died. Those were pretty major

[DBZAOTA482]

DBZ to DB is like what Naruto Shippuden is to Naruto.