Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection 'F'"

[MajinMan]

Wow the event sounds amazing! I live around the area and by the time I found out about it all the tickets were gone. Oh well, I was looking forward to the dub release anyway so I don't feel too bad. I would've loved to meet all the actors and the director but you can't have it all.

[Faustus]

First of all, Freeza's organization, or empire like we fans sometimes call it, is only refereed to as Planet trade Organization and its purpose seems to just be the conquering and selling of planets. So, according to the material given, it seems to be a military-style organization for profit, not a political one. So, political considerations are pretty much irrelevant since politics seem to not really play a significant role in the organization. It seems to be an absolute military-style dictatorship.

Secondly, actually, it pretty much means that power is that one thing. Given Freeza's violent behavior and the fact that he enslaves and kills entire races and keeps or sells their planets, his power and the fear of his power is quite literally the only thing keeping his organization together. Without it, those races would just fight back, like they did when Freeza died. Freeza shows no other significant skills nor does he show any other way of getting what he wants except by threatening and using violence in the given material, so, what I'm saying derives naturally from the material available. It's what you are saying that doesn't derive from it so, if anybody has the "burden of proof", its you.

Also, Freeza is never shown to have extraordinary charm or appeal (aka being charismatic), regarding the Ginyus or anyone else. The Ginyus are merely shown to be loyal, nothing else, and considering that were also genocidal killers, its not surprising that they are loyal to a stronger genocidal killer who lets them kill people and destroy planets.

Furthermore, personally, I don't find any need or sense in twisting logic to try to justify a plothole or a inconsistency. If it exist, it just exists.

And, it really doesn't matter much if Sishami can't think for himself. As it was shown in the manga tie-in for the movie, they are being forced out of planets because they can't repress the rebellions and that's why they are forced to retreat. Meaning that their problem is a problem of force/power. With Sishami being that strong, all they had to do would order him to repress the rebellions, and he would do it in a instant.

Aight, let's organize this (paragraph-by-paragraph):
1) From what I can recall, it is explicitly referred to as an "empire" in the manga adaptation and is therefore probably similarly unwieldy in size - even if it isn't technically an empire by a strict definition. And military-style dictatorship or not, it would nevertheless take a minimum of administrative skill to keep things running and keep an organization spread over such an expansive territory from dispersing. I mean, the man has legions of underlings working under him and owns at least 79 planets! And he's the one who appoints officers, gives all the orders, etc. I'd say political considerations definitely apply to this degree, at least.

2-3) As far as Toriyama's manga goes, we’ve only seen Freeza interact with a few of his subordinates on Namek; we really don’t have the foggiest clue as to how he administers his rule at large on a regular basis. Just because we've largely seen him use power to keep his underlings in firm control does not mean it's the only tool at his disposal by which he maintains an iron clamp over his vast space-organization, nor does it mean that anyone equally strong, or stronger, will be able to use it just as well in sustaining good order across the galaxy.

Sure, anyone with power can get you to fear and obey them in the moment, but once you're out of sight? Especially in an empire so vast as Freeza's (79+ planets)? In the unrestricted vastness of space? Probably not. With Freeza, in addition to just his power, it's the cult of personality he appears to have built around himself: his name inspires fear, and he knows how to keep everything nicely purposed and cohesive around his person. Freeza is a personality. Now, of course I'm just throwing things out there. But the story doesn't outright tell us why exactly Freeza was brought back, and you're the one advocating the positive thesis that the data we're given leads necessarily to the conclusion that Freeza was resurrected for his strength alone and hence necessarily yields a contradiction. So long as I can continue to produce an alternative explanation, your interpretation isn't the only viable one, and the burden remains on you to show why it is.

4) But, see, I don't think this plot hole of yours "just exists", point-blank; you have to purposely choose a reading out of many equally possible readings such as to give rise to an inconsistency. Your assumption that Sorbet needed Freeza back solely for his power and nothing else is not only nowhere-stated, but entirely superfluous, and really only serves to engender unwarranted complications. You quite literally have to adduce several assumptions of your own to Sorbet's speech in order to come necessarily and inevitably to the conclusion that Freeza's strength alone is what makes him a valuable leader. Had Sorbet said anything to the effect of "Freeza-sama is the only one strong enough to bring this mess under control!" I'd gladly concede the point in an instant. But the very fact that we (and many others) are having this conversation at all should tell you that inconsistency you claim is so self-evident may not be so obvious after all, or at least not to everyone (like Cell's nucleus, for instance). And if it's not so obvious, why insist on it so adamantly when a wide range of better, more palatable and equally plausible alternative readings are possible?

What you regard as twisting logic I see as simply removing any extraneous inferences from the equation. You don't even need to twist logic to take a more charitable reading of it; the story doesn't give us any clear indications either way, so why not just go with what makes more sense, rather than automatically assume the worst?

5) One thing to bear in mind is that these local "rebellions" we're told are in need of repressing are symptomatic of a larger issue - the collapse of the empire at large. Quelling an uprising here or there won't do much to bring lasting stability in the long run if the organization remains overall just as poorly administered. They need a permanent solution to a persistent problem. Sorbet, in fact, informs us very straightforwardly in the manga that it's far more a question of getting things under control (or something to this effect), not just eliminating whoever's causing a ruckus. Power isn't all there has to be to it; they need a competent figurehead.

Anywho, I'm tucking in. I think I've outlined my view well enough here. Feel free to disagree, but I don't know what more I can say on this point.
Gnight!

[SansrivaaL]

Got an email update from FUNi:

Join us on the red carpet to meet Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection 'F' cast and crew!
We’re less than a week away from the World Premiere & Red Carpet Event for Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection 'F' on Saturday, April 11th at the Egyptian Theatre in Los Angeles! With appearances from the cast & crew, cosplay gatherings, and even a chance to have your questions answered by the creators!



Fans in the Los Angeles area, you won’t want to miss this once-in-a lifetime event! Join us on the red carpet for a chance to meet the cast and crew, including:



Tadayoshi Yamamuro (Director of Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection ‘F’)
Masako Nozawa (Japanese voice actress ­for Goku)
Sean Schemmel (English voice actor for Goku)
Christopher R. Sabat (English voice actor for Vegeta)
and many more
We’ll also be hosting a Fan Appreciation Event & Gathering prior to the red carpet. Show up in your best Dragon Ball Z cosplay or swag for an hour of contests, trivia, and story-telling hosted by Justin Rojas and Johnny Yong Bosch. We’ll be giving away tons of prizes from our partners at Bandai Namco Games, Funko POP!, Bluefin Toys & Collectibles, and much more.



Bonus for you die-hard fans: The first 100 people who show up to the red carpet in Dragon Ball Z cosplay or merchandise will receive a pair of limited edition Goku & Freeza phone charms – only available in Japan! You’ll also be guaranteed a spot along the red carpet!



Things kick off at 10 am, as follows:



10 am -­ 11 am: Fan Appreciation Event & Gathering

11 am ­- 12 pm: Red Carpet

12 pm ­- 2 pm: Screening of Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection 'F' (ticket holders: please be prepared to present your ticket)



Not in the Los Angeles area or can’t make it to the event? We’ve got you covered! FUNimation’s very own Justin Rojas will be roaming the red carpet and he wants to answer your questions! Do you have a question for the cast and creators of the film? Post it to Twitter or Facebook using the hashtag #DBZRedCarpet and it could be answered by Masako Nozawa, herself!

So envious right now!

Holy crap.... red carpet? was srsly not expecting this! I am so proud that DBZ has made it this far hope the movie gets enough money to make a sequel.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Battle of Gods had a red carpet event too, did they not? All of like, 20 feet of it next to a wall for the sake of pictures?

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

Battle of Gods had a red carpet event too, did they not? All of like, 20 feet of it next to a wall for the sake of pictures?

Not that I remember or know of, no. This is the first time Dragon Ball Z has this kind of spotlight, I think.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

No it did (Funimation's announcement). I remember because I watched the interview Mike and Heath had with the Funimation cast (Sabat, Schemmel, etc) about covering it.

the red carpet was like 20 feet long: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=106&v=S1T5Jl92qkk

[lord turbo]

Yes, I agree that Whis training Goku and Vegeta is very interesting, and the fight against Freeza was part of that training. The bit about Freeza's forces could've been introduced in other ways...okay. I think it was fine being introduced like this. Why wouldn't they try to revive him if they knew about the Dragon Balls? We get it, everyone is disappointed that we didn't hear more about the 12 universes.

Why is Whis training them interesting since he merely rehashes what Goku's former teachers have already taught him that Goku apparently forgets from time to time it seems. I don't get the point of reviving Freeza as he showed he had no interest in running the organization since he immediately went after Goku and got killed for it and tried to do the exact same crap if Sorbet didn't mention Goku defeated Majin Buu.

If they were short on powerful mean they should have looked harder for Avo and Cado before resorting to Freeza. It amazes me how when giving the ultimate cosmic artifacts no one wishes for beneficial things for themselves. This movies seems like a lazy excuse to get all of Freeza's organization in one place so you can kill them all off and tie up all lose ends so you won't have to deal with it anymore which is a damn shame. Am i the only one that feels Toriyama squanders all this massive potential of DB lore he has waiting to be utilized in this series?

No. In Resurrection F, the PTO was in shambles following Freeza's death. With no real stable leadership, that Freeza was providing before his death, the PTO was losing multiple planets following them revolting and as a result were countless losing soldiers. Realizing that the PTO could cease to exist if things didn't change, Sorbet came to conclusion that they had to revive Freeza, just so that some real leadership could be brought back. And the plot of Resurrection F was born.

Looking back did Freeza even do any kind of leadership? He ordered people around sure enough, but did he actually do notable leadership? Going by his actual personality and choices he seems to be an incredibly incompetent leader on the likes of 80s cartoon Shredder. What they lacked were real firepower it seems, to bad Sorbet didn't have the brain to make worthwhile wishes to solves this dilemma instead of wasting it on reviving Freeza who's too foolish to properly run his own organization anyway.

We learned, that there were remnants of Freeza's army somewhere in the universe, moreover they were strong. This is the same thing we learned in FnF. Nothing new.

We already learned Freeza's army was still around and active since DBO were they were attacking Earth many years later. I don't know why anyone would assume just because Freeza is gone the organization just stops, someone else just fills in the void left by Freeza. I've always thought that and its been confirmed since the Tarble special and DBO before this RoF falt out spelled it out for you.

I almost wish Beerus hadn't mentioned the other universes at all. How frustrating to say "hey this also exists", and then not get to see any of them in the following film.

If you notice, Toriyama does that all that time. "Hey these Makaioshins exist", does nothing with it. "Hey, this Demon Realm exist" does nothing with it. He mentions all a potentially amazing and interesting stuff for the sake of mentioning it and does very little with it except maybe set it up for a cheap joke or something. I get the feeling the other universes will be nothing more than different stages in a video games to place fights in as Toriyama creates new environments, but does very little in exploring these actual locations he makes out the blue.

At the start of Battle of Gods, and I think for the first time in Toriyama's Dragonball in such overt fashion, when Goku first meets Beerus and goes Super Saiyan 3, he's genuinely showing off - he's flexing his muscles and gloating about how strong he is, and you know? That's not the Goku we have come to know. You just get the feeling that he's beaten Majin Buu, who by all accounts was the strongest guy in the Universe, and he's had a couple of years where, for all intents and purposes, he may well have considered himself to hold that title, and I think Toriyama wanted to show that it had went to his head.

To be honest Goku has always been like that, its the very reason why Roshi entered the 21st Budokai so Goku and Kuririn didn't let their high level of power go to their heads, it was in vain, but still worth a try. Goku has been like this fighting Red Ribbon army, Tao Pai Pai, Baba's tournament, Tenshinhan, Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr, Raditz, Nappa, Vegeta, Ginyu Force, Ginyu, Freeza, Cell, Majin Buu, and etc. Goku rarely feels anyone is worthy of his full power and can't be bother to go all out until he's backed into a corner, he acts this very way with Freeza with the whole "Well, I guess I could show this blue SSJ, not really needed though, but whatever." Whenever Goku is humbled and shown humility it doesn't last very long as he right back to his old tricks before you know it. This is a moral, theme, or whatever you want to call it that's always been constant with Goku as long as new material is being published following his adventures.

And why you say He's way stronger than 100% Freeza?! Land sucessful atacks doesn't make you the stronger.
Gohan damaged Raditz, Nappa,Vegeta, Freeza...
Tenshinhan, Krillin, Piccolo damaged Nappa
Vegeta and Goku damaged Perfect Cell

Gohan was stronger than Raditz when he severely injured him, he didn't damage Nappa or Vegeta, and he was briefly higher than Freeza's second and third form when he raged out. Tenshinhan, Kuririn, and Piccolo never successfully damaged or harmed Nappa in any meaningful or significant manner either. Goku & Vegeta all damaged Cell when their levels were above his current level of power at the time.

It's abundantly clear that Freeza rules by fear and force. He is not a diplomat or a well-respected figure. He is a tyrant. It's rather clear that they expected him to fix things by using his fear and power.

Tagoma even mentions Freeza was just a tyrant.

I'd like to see the full scene before I make a call. Is it possible for someone to get the best of Piccolo in the moment but still be overall significantly weaker than Freeza? I think so. Fans put a lot of emphasis on relative battle powers, but it's clear that Toriyama does not.

Even Toriyama puts a lot of emphasis on relative battle powers. its why to this very day you have never seen a fighter be troubles in the least bit by an opponent much weaker than them. The only way way a fighter would get the ebst of Piccolo is if they were close in power to himself. This seems to be the case as Julian mentioned they fought on par with each other for a while until Gohan saw it, turned SSJ and oneshotted the guy. That seems pointless to do if Piccolo could do the same by using his full power if he wasn't already.

Maybe the fighter would be overwhelmed by the sheer number of rebels in a way that Freeza wouldn't. Maybe Freeza's presence and ruthlessness (qualities important for an emperor) are something that another fighter wouldn't be able to match even if they were quite strong. Maybe Freeza has administrative capabilities that are important that we don't get a chance to see on screen. If you think these circumstances should be different, then feel free to imagine a situation where they are.

The fighter would only be overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of rebels if he wasn't that much different than them in power. As Freeza once stated, 3 ants can't do crap to a dinosaur. Increase the ants to hundreds, still a stomp. Being ruthless and such is only meaningful if said person is considerably stronger than the other guys, otherwise they have a good fight with each other if they are around similar levels. Freeza's administrative capabilities doesn't get planets conquered if he's too weak to beat said opposition. I see you are making a lot of insufficient arguments that don't hold the slightest bit of water.

On what basis? The burden is on you to show this.

This is a children's comic, you are making things overly complicated. Freeza's ruled through fear and unchallenged might, this is what the manga and anime clearly shows. In this series power trumps everything (with a few exceptions to the rule). We are shown Freeza uses people of appropriate level to go out and conquer planets for him. If this person is of insufficient level he uses someone else of capable might, and rinse and repeat until a desire affect. He gets what he wants out of the Saiyajins by exerting his superiority and dominance over them and any other race that dares oppose him. He doesn't exactly sweet talk them or use elegant talk about political standing and affairs, no, he beats your head in until you submit and if you don't he breaks you neck and walks off. This is how he ran things on Namek.

[Piririn]

I had hoped that the rewritten history theory would prove correct. That had so much potential for both humor and pathos. But Freeza inflicting despair through evil acts would've been great too. What we got was action minus meaning. The thing with this movie is that there's no impact on the characters themselves. No significant reaction to nearly everybody dying. The destruction of Earth has almost as little effect on the heroes as the destruction of Mr. Satan's new hotel in the Tarble special.

Thats the problem with the series. Which is why the parallel scenario with Kid Buu blowing up the planet was the better storyline. Goku & Vegeta were not only desperate, it was the first time it happened and they were torn at their mistakes leading to that extreme. Thus forcing Goku to snap out of it and get serious.

In FnF all of that maturity in Goku is thrown out the window and Goku only getting serious when he gets blue hair is so redundant and out of character by this point.Not since even in BoG the minute Goku knew Beerus would be too strong to provoke or that he was going to destroy the Earth, he was serious even in base form.

This movie has made it so that there's no chance for real danger/drama in any future movie either. If the Earth being destroyed and everybody dying is no big deal anymore, that what could possibly be at stake in the next movie?

Granted, that the Earth blowing up or the same people dying over and over again is just cliched to the point of desensitization - but thats why I liked the Black Star balls idea in GT. They had that consequence, Goku tried to justify it but realized he was in the wrong for once. That over relying on the balls destroys them and at least that would have to force the heroes to be more careful with things, instead of just giving the balls out like candy at a bingo party.

They need to introduce some way to make consequences less reversable. Not adding Whis' "time-travel" fix when the DB themselves aren't around.

FnF sounds like it's an awkwardly mixed movie, having serious things occur (destruction of North City, Goku getting a hole shot through him, Earth being destroyed) but having the characters act like they did in the Tarble special. The Tarble special being fun and lighthearted worked because there really was no real threat - the villains weren't particularly strong or sadistic, and all the heroes were on hand to ensure things were kept under control. Goku and Vegeta could act childish with each other because Avo and Cado weren't much more than an afternoon's entertainment.

But in FnF, the villain is Freeza. Freeza, who's the most sadistic villain in the series. The battle against him during the Freeza saga was one of desperation and despair. Vegeta was tortured and killed, Kuririn got speared on Freeza's horn and later blown up, Dende was killed, Piccolo took a beating and was nearly killed, etc... For Freeza's return to be treated so lightly by Goku (who became SSJ because of Freeza killing Kuririn) and Vegeta (who was enslaved by Freeza for most of his life)... it just doesn't make sense.

I know we've become a bit desensitized due to the Dragon Balls existing, but those have been around since the very beginning and the series was still able to pull off dramatic scenes. Piccolo sacrificing himself for Gohan, Vegeta's death on Planet Namek, etc... They still had impact on the viewers because they had impact on the characters. Pain and death are still terrible things to experience, regardless of the existence of Dragon Balls. In FnF, Goku and Vegeta's kids, Goku's baby granddaughter, etc... all die a fiery death. But, even though that occurred, Vegeta and Goku still don't want to fight together in the end? Vegeta, who danced and sang about bingo in BoG to prevent the destruction of Earth, doesn't care that his son and almost everyone else died due to his and Goku's immaturity? It's terribly out of character.

I wouldn't have minded too much if it was a basic revenge movie. While the hype made it seem like more, I would've been okay with Freeza coming back and being his evil self and getting defeated again. But Goku and Vegeta's lack of seriousness about his return, their lack of much anger or pain or regret in response to his evil deeds, and their lack of anything learned at the end... is disappointing. I'm not particularly bothered by Super Cyan, the four month power up, etc... Those are minor. I care, more than anything, that the characters themselves remain in-character. And from what I've read, it appears that FnF falls short in that area for Goku and Vegeta.

[fadeddreams5]

I had hoped that the rewritten history theory would prove correct. That had so much potential for both humor and pathos. But Freeza inflicting despair through evil acts would've been great too. What we got was action minus meaning. The thing with this movie is that there's no impact on the characters themselves. No significant reaction to nearly everybody dying. The destruction of Earth has almost as little effect on the heroes as the destruction of Mr. Satan's new hotel in the Tarble special.

Thats the problem with the series. Which is why the parallel scenario with Kid Buu blowing up the planet was the better storyline. Goku & Vegeta were not only desperate, it was the first time it happened and they were torn at their mistakes leading to that extreme. Thus forcing Goku to snap out of it and get serious.

In FnF all of that maturity in Goku is thrown out the window and Goku only getting serious when he gets blue hair is so redundant and out of character by this point.Not since even in BoG the minute Goku knew Beerus would be too strong to provoke or that he was going to destroy the Earth, he was serious even in base form.

This movie has made it so that there's no chance for real danger/drama in any future movie either. If the Earth being destroyed and everybody dying is no big deal anymore, that what could possibly be at stake in the next movie?

Granted, that the Earth blowing up or the same people dying over and over again is just cliched to the point of desensitization - but thats why I liked the Black Star balls idea in GT. They had that consequence, Goku tried to justify it but realized he was in the wrong for once. That over relying on the balls destroys them and at least that would have to force the heroes to be more careful with things, instead of just giving the balls out like candy at a bingo party.

They need to introduce some way to make consequences less reversable. Not adding Whis' "time-travel" fix when the DB themselves aren't around.

FnF sounds like it's an awkwardly mixed movie, having serious things occur (destruction of North City, Goku getting a hole shot through him, Earth being destroyed) but having the characters act like they did in the Tarble special. The Tarble special being fun and lighthearted worked because there really was no real threat - the villains weren't particularly strong or sadistic, and all the heroes were on hand to ensure things were kept under control. Goku and Vegeta could act childish with each other because Avo and Cado weren't much more than an afternoon's entertainment.

But in FnF, the villain is Freeza. Freeza, who's the most sadistic villain in the series. The battle against him during the Freeza saga was one of desperation and despair. Vegeta was tortured and killed, Kuririn got speared on Freeza's horn and later blown up, Dende was killed, Piccolo took a beating and was nearly killed, etc... For Freeza's return to be treated so lightly by Goku (who became SSJ because of Freeza killing Kuririn) and Vegeta (who was enslaved by Freeza for most of his life)... it just doesn't make sense.

I know we've become a bit desensitized due to the Dragon Balls existing, but those have been around since the very beginning and the series was still able to pull off dramatic scenes. Piccolo sacrificing himself for Gohan, Vegeta's death on Planet Namek, etc... They still had impact on the viewers because they had impact on the characters. Pain and death are still terrible things to experience, regardless of the existence of Dragon Balls. In FnF, Goku and Vegeta's kids, Goku's baby granddaughter, etc... all die a fiery death. But, even though that occurred, Vegeta and Goku still don't want to fight together in the end? Vegeta, who danced and sang about bingo in BoG to prevent the destruction of Earth, doesn't care that his son and almost everyone else died due to his and Goku's immaturity? It's terribly out of character.

I wouldn't have minded too much if it was a basic revenge movie. While the hype made it seem like more, I would've been okay with Freeza coming back and being his evil self and getting defeated again. But Goku and Vegeta's lack of seriousness about his return, their lack of much anger or pain or regret in response to his evil deeds, and their lack of anything learned at the end... is disappointing. I'm not particularly bothered by Super Cyan, the four month power up, etc... Those are minor. I care, more than anything, that the characters themselves remain in-character. And from what I've read, it appears that FnF falls short in that area for Goku and Vegeta.

I agree with everything in your post.

I wish Goku and Vegeta would have learned to fight together, as a team, at the end of the movie. There'd be a point to the movie if they actually learned from their experience here and would have taken down Frieza together. The whole film seems so pointless, honestly.

[Herms]

Alright, I'm officially starting to catch up on the Bulma blog translations. Three for today, in one big post: 24 Days Left, 23 Days Left, and (in a surprise twist) 22 Days Left.

The 24 and 22 Days Left posts are just going over trailers and tie-ins, but there is that great image of Vegeta with a microphone. Meanwhile, the 23 Days Left post has Yuko Minaguchi:

Hey, Bulma here!
Just 23 days left until the movie premieres!
Today we’ve got a comment from the voice of Videl, Yūko Minaguchi!

Since I had got the chance to be in the last film, Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods, I was wondering whether Videl and Pan would feature in this next film. So I was happy to get to take part in this one too.

I had heard how Toriyama-sensei was involved with the story for the last movie, so when I found out that he was writing the script himself this time, I was curious if it would be a continuation of the last film, and looked forward to seeing just when it would be set. After reading the script and finding it was a sequel to Battle of Gods, I thought how sensei’s word view just keeps going on and on.

In the last film Pan was still in the womb, while in this film she’s been born…she’s still a bit flat-faced, so I was worried if she’ll really grow up into the Pan I know and love, but at any rate I’m glad she was born without any complications.

In this film, Freeza comes back to life and gets even stronger, plus Goku and Vegeta are training too, so I’m looking forward to seeing how the fighting scenes turn out. I think this movie will be more fun if you’ve seen the last one, so go re-watch Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods on DVD or something, so that you can appreciate the connections between the two.

One more thing: I think Gohan wearing a tracksuit in the movie sums him up perfectly: so earnest, yet unpretentious (laughs).

[Piririn]

Goku and Vegeta being unwilling to fight together is a rather out-of-the-blue issue anyway. During the final battle with Kid Buu on Kaioshin's planet, they worked together to defeat him. Vegeta endured a brutal beating to give Goku the time he needed to gather energy for the Genki Dama. One of my favorite scenes in the series is when, battered but victorious, they both smiled and gave each other a thumbs up. Vegeta didn't pitch a fit because Goku got the kill, and Goku wasn't upset that the victory wasn't his alone. They were just happy that they, together, had won.

Later, in BoG, Vegeta was angry at the end of the movie when he found out that Goku had been watching everyone else battle against Beerus instead of helping. He didn't have any qualms about fighting alongside Goku.

It's like Goku and Vegeta have devolved into petty children in FnF, losing the maturity and character development they'd once had. Trunks and Goten are excluded from FnF's battle because they might do something rash, but their fathers' immature behavior trumps any of their past screw-ups.

On that note, I think their exclusion would've been better explained if Gohan had left them out on the basis that it's Freeza they'd be facing. The battle against Freeza on Planet Namek was a traumatic one for Gohan, so it'd make sense for him to want to keep those two kids safe from Freeza's sadistic behavior.

[rereboy]

Aight, let's organize this (paragraph-by-paragraph):
1) From what I can recall, it is explicitly referred to as an "empire" in the manga adaptation and is therefore probably similarly unwieldy in size - even if it isn't technically an empire by a strict definition. And military-style dictatorship or not, it would nevertheless take a minimum of administrative skill to keep things running and keep an organization spread over such an expansive territory from dispersing. I mean, the man has legions of underlings working under him and owns at least 79 planets! And he's the one who appoints officers, gives all the orders, etc. I'd say political considerations definitely apply to this degree, at least.

2-3) As far as Toriyama's manga goes, we’ve only seen Freeza interact with a few of his subordinates on Namek; we really don’t have the foggiest clue as to how he administers his rule at large on a regular basis. Just because we've largely seen him use power to keep his underlings in firm control does not mean it's the only tool at his disposal by which he maintains an iron clamp over his vast space-organization, nor does it mean that anyone equally strong, or stronger, will be able to use it just as well in sustaining good order across the galaxy.

Sure, anyone with power can get you to fear and obey them in the moment, but once you're out of sight? Especially in an empire so vast as Freeza's (79+ planets)? In the unrestricted vastness of space? Probably not. With Freeza, in addition to just his power, it's the cult of personality he appears to have built around himself: his name inspires fear, and he knows how to keep everything nicely purposed and cohesive around his person. Freeza is a personality. Now, of course I'm just throwing things out there. But the story doesn't outright tell us why exactly Freeza was brought back, and you're the one advocating the positive thesis that the data we're given leads necessarily to the conclusion that Freeza was resurrected for his strength alone and hence necessarily yields a contradiction. So long as I can continue to produce an alternative explanation, your interpretation isn't the only viable one, and the burden remains on you to show why it is.

4) But, see, I don't think this plot hole of yours "just exists", point-blank; you have to purposely choose a reading out of many equally possible readings such as to give rise to an inconsistency. Your assumption that Sorbet needed Freeza back solely for his power and nothing else is not only nowhere-stated, but entirely superfluous, and really only serves to engender unwarranted complications. You quite literally have to adduce several assumptions of your own to Sorbet's speech in order to come necessarily and inevitably to the conclusion that Freeza's strength alone is what makes him a valuable leader. Had Sorbet said anything to the effect of "Freeza-sama is the only one strong enough to bring this mess under control!" I'd gladly concede the point in an instant. But the very fact that we (and many others) are having this conversation at all should tell you that inconsistency you claim is so self-evident may not be so obvious after all, or at least not to everyone (like Cell's nucleus, for instance). And if it's not so obvious, why insist on it so adamantly when a wide range of better, more palatable and equally plausible alternative readings are possible?

What you regard as twisting logic I see as simply removing any extraneous inferences from the equation. You don't even need to twist logic to take a more charitable reading of it; the story doesn't give us any clear indications either way, so why not just go with what makes more sense, rather than automatically assume the worst?

5) One thing to bear in mind is that these local "rebellions" we're told are in need of repressing are symptomatic of a larger issue - the collapse of the empire at large. Quelling an uprising here or there won't do much to bring lasting stability in the long run if the organization remains overall just as poorly administered. They need a permanent solution to a persistent problem. Sorbet, in fact, informs us very straightforwardly in the manga that it's far more a question of getting things under control (or something to this effect), not just eliminating whoever's causing a ruckus. Power isn't all there has to be to it; they need a competent figurehead.

Anywho, I'm tucking in. I think I've outlined my view well enough here. Feel free to disagree, but I don't know what more I can say on this point.
Gnight!

1) it was never refereed to as an empire in anything official as far as I'm aware, and never is Freeza presented doing anything regarding administration anywhere, which are menial tasks that hardly could be performed by just one person in an vast organization, so obviously it would be his underlings that would deal with the bulk of those issues, if not all. In any case, like I mentioned, considering the nature of the organization, it obviously wasn't the administrative skills which held it together, it was Freeza's power and the fear and awe it caused.

2-3) what I'm doing is presenting the only possible logical conclusion that we can derive from what we have in the manga, the anime and Freeza's personality. You are insisting that somehow, even though that isn't presented anywhere and doesn't fit Freeza personality, what held the organization together wasn't his power and its his other skills that they want back when they wish Freeza back, even though the problems they are facing is the inability to suppress rebellions by force.

And Freeza didn't have to be everywhere, his power was so great that the fear of him was enough to keep everything in line. Everyone knew that challenging him was a death sentence and an invite to have your planet destroyed. They start to rebel after Freeza is gone because suddenly, they have a change of winning and getting rid of the organization since they aren't so much stronger than them.

That is the logical conclusion from the material.

4) you are twisting logic and finding interpretations that are nowhere supported by anything in the manga or the anime, that don't fit Freeza's personality and that don't make sense, to try to justify that inconsistency and try to make it so it isn't a plothole. Like I said, I don't do that. I don't bend myself backwards and go agaisnt the rest of the material to try to justify inconsistencies. If there's a logical explanation that fits the material and is supported by the material, that's fine, even though it was the movie's job to present it, not mine. But if there's not, then there's simply a plothole/inconsistency.

5) they need a very strong figurehead that strikes fear with his power and that the rebels can't hope to challenge. In short, they need someone to do what Freeza did, but anyone with a power like Freeza and that is ruthless would be able to do it, by himself or by taking orders.

[fexus]

This is a children's comic, you are making things overly complicated. Freeza's ruled through fear and unchallenged might, this is what the manga and anime clearly shows. In this series power trumps everything (with a few exceptions to the rule). We are shown Freeza uses people of appropriate level to go out and conquer planets for him. If this person is of insufficient level he uses someone else of capable might, and rinse and repeat until a desire affect. He gets what he wants out of the Saiyajins by exerting his superiority and dominance over them and any other race that dares oppose him. He doesn't exactly sweet talk them or use elegant talk about political standing and affairs, no, he beats your head in until you submit and if you don't he breaks you neck and walks off. This is how he ran things on Namek.

And anime are for children. All of them because they are cartoons. Right? Just because you think Freeza is only needed because of his strength doesn't mean you're right. Also, Freeza has tried to sweet talk before. Even in this new movie, Freeza offered Vegeta a high position in his empire.

[rereboy]

And anime are for children. All of them because they are cartoons. Right? Just because you think Freeza is only needed because of his strength doesn't mean you're right. Also, Freeza has tried to sweet talk before. Even in this new movie, Freeza offered Vegeta a high position in his empire.

So, what held the organization together was Freeza's ability to offer positions in the organization? Only him has that skill? Nobody else could do it?

[fexus]

And anime are for children. All of them because they are cartoons. Right? Just because you think Freeza is only needed because of his strength doesn't mean you're right. Also, Freeza has tried to sweet talk before. Even in this new movie, Freeza offered Vegeta a high position in his empire.

So, what held the organization together was Freeza's ability to offer positions in the organization? Only him has that skill? Nobody else could do it?

It isn't about the act of Freeza offering positions but way it signify that Freeza isn't all about POWER.

[rereboy]

It isn't about the act of Freeza offering positions but way it signify that Freeza isn't all about POWER.

Ok, then. They might have been expecting that Freeza's invaluable skills and appeal at diplomacy, administrative duties and at assigning positions on the organization would keep the peace in the organization, since no other has such skills, instead of his power (even though such is not supported anywhere in the manga or anime, even though it goes against Freeza's personality and even though it doesn't make sense).

[fexus]

It isn't about the act of Freeza offering positions but way it signify that Freeza isn't all about POWER.

Ok, then. They might have been expecting that Freeza's invaluable skills and appeal at diplomacy, administrative duties and at assigning positions on the organization would keep the peace in the organization, since no other has such skills, instead of his power (even though such is not supported anywhere in the manga or anime, even though it goes against Freeza's personality and even though it doesn't make sense).

What? Organizing people is against Freeza's personality now. I bet ordering them is too much for Freeza too.

[Marco Polo]

1) it was never refereed to as an empire in anything official as far as I'm aware

Sure, but King Cold.

[rereboy]

What? Organizing people is against Freeza's personality now. I bet ordering them is too much for Freeza too.

Freeza's personality regarding other people is literally "do as I say or perish".

When he offers a job to Vegeta he is basically threatening him, saying that he could spare Vegeta if he joins him. He did the same thing to Goku on Namek and offered him a job instead of killing him. He also did the same to the Nameks, by telling them to give him the Dragon Ball or else...

He doesn't negotiate and he doesn't do diplomacy, it's either his way or the horrible death way and that is consistently portrayed in the manga/anime.

Therefore, yes, him being very skilled at diplomacy and administrative skills and so on and so forth doesn't fit his personality.

Sure, but King Cold.

That's true, I was always puzzled by that title. They don't actually have a kingdom. Maybe it just because it sounds cool?

[GokuRules987]

I really hope sorbet kicks ass in this movie, otherwise if hes just going to be another irrelevant plot designed fodder by Toriyama who has no taste in making his characters interesting anymore.