Saiyan beyond God vs Super Saiyan 4

[Hitiro]

GT Perfect Files say that? I thought it was the GT Anime Comic... which was in chinese and never sourced. Can I see an original japanese comic/manga/guide book that says this? I've only seen a chinese variation of that comic, translated by someone to english. So I have to question its legitimacy.

If anyone can get this in its original form, and translated by someone verified to be fluent in both English and Japanese, as well as competent in translating it, then you may have a case with this. Otherwise Z's SSJ Vegito cannot be as strong as SSJ4 Goku from GT.

Both the GT Perfect Files and the GT Anime Comic also said it. I can't confirm the GT Perfect Files because I'm just relying on information told to me but there are scans of the GT Anime Comic in Chinese. And Herms said that on a Chinese DB forum the guy claims it also says it for the GT Anime Comic in Japanese. So believe what you will. If you really want to find out about this then you could always track down a Japanese version of the GT Anime Comic yourself and post it in the translation section to have it confirmed or check the GT Perfect Files, I think I saw someone say it was in volume 2? But again, this is information I'm relying on other people.

Goku did get increases in power during this time. But to say they were insane powerups is honestly silly. Because it would only take Goku a powerup of 4x to beat a character who is destroying him. Because a character 2x stronger than you is the bare minimum for you to be wrecked by them. Even if we assume these were massive power-ups, we don't know where the upgrade to SSJ places him against his SSJ4 counterpart..

lolwut. Goku stated he had surpassed far beyond a SSJ4 against Syn Shenron. In fact, I would wager this was the SSJ5, but Toei didn't feel like altering his appearance with yet another transformation.

And even a 1.1x increase at that level SSJ4 Goku was at in GT is ludicrous. Immense. Say you 're earning 10,000 dollars. And you get a 1.1x increase. It's shit. You've gained 1000 dollars extra. But say you're earning 1 quintillion dollars, and you get a 1.1x increase... that is a healthy chunk of change you're earning extra now, a nearly unfathomable amount more than the 1.1x increase from 10,000.

Replace the money with power levels and you start to see my point - Goku with even the tiniest multiplier at SSJ4 gained absolutely insane amounts of power.

I don't really see your point. You say that getting an increase of 1,000 dollars from 10,000 dollars is insane/immense. But it isn't. For the simple reason that you could easily spend 10,000 dollars in one go and then 1,000 would not allow you to buy whatever you bought again. So really it isn't immense. You could buy a 10,000 dollar car and then you would be left with 1,000 dollars which is chump change compared to what you just used. Now if you were to say that it increased by 2x the amount then that would allow you to buy 2, 10,000 dollar cars. Or 1 20,000 dollar car. Which would be very worth it. So yeah, 1.1x isn't that impressive.

The 10 years post-Kid Boo saga isn't over yet. We don't know what goes down after ROF/pre-chapter 518. Maybe a mastered Blue-faired ascended SSJ God is just a normal SSJ1 in aesthetics. An unmastered SSj God is red hair, and an SSJ God SSJ blue hair with the flame. Who knows what Akira cooks up next in the next chapter, he might just keep it super simple and go back to normal while maintaining the godlyhood of power levels or something.

I can't argue that it isn't possible for the form to look like the original. But then if you're going to treat this as the case, it still doesn't make sense why Goku would use SSJ2 or SSJ3 in GT. Because Akira Toriyama stated in the interview that Goku would only use base and SSJ from now on. BoG shows us that the regular SSJ does not increase his battle power after the SSJGod power up. And in this movie Goku specifically finds a way to get SSJ to access God power so he can actually increase his power.

Unless within the 10 years post-Pure Boo, Goku finds a way to harness God power in his later transformations, which would actually point to him having a blue aura with at least SSJ3 because it isn't a form that someone can master. Then Goku transforming into any other form other than SSJ1 does not make sense.

I don't think that Goku could increase his strength that much against an opponent that is clearly much weaker than him given the events of BoG. The Saiyan's get massively stronger against opponents that are stronger than themselves. That has always been the case. It would stand to reason that training with Whis would have been a larger increase in strength compared to training with Oob purely because Whis is so strong.

Here's the the thing though, Vegeta states Uub LEARNS to fight as he fights his opponent. This can be interpreted as Uub's level skyrockets too to the level of his opponent - this is evident because Uub managed to kick an improved God Goku so fuckin hard, he wobbled his arm.

Learning to fight his opponents does not suggest his battle power is sky-rocketing. It suggests he is learning how to do combat. Things like dodging, punching, kicking. Obviously Goku would take damage if he is suppressed. Do you honestly think Godku would fight at 100% against a kid who Goku doesn't know if he has tapped into his power? What if Goku hit Oob at 100% of his power while Oob was suppressed to a battle power of 5? Goku is going to blow his head off like that. Goku could hurt Freeza while Freeza was suppressed. So could other characters. Goku could hurt Cell despite the massive difference. Vegeta also damaged Beerus in BoG. Do you honestly think Vegeta's battle power increased to match Beerus top battle power? I highly doubt it. So Oob hurting Goku's arm, or making it tingle is nothing to go on.

I mean if you even want to consider this you have to remember that Godku is stronger than SSJ Vegetto, who would easily take Pure Boo/Oob apart. And SSJ Vegetto isn't going to take damage from him either. So why is it that Godku who is stronger than SSJ Vegetto would take damage from a character much weaker than SSJ Vegetto whereas SSJ Vegetto would easily tank any attack from Pure Boo?

This would mean that they more they trained together, the more Uub learned and gained insane strength, which means God Goku got pushed also fighting with an opponent like that for MANY years. Thus, became stronger - and so did Uub.

While this would be true eventually we have to look at this from an opposite viewpoint. Before these movies we were of the standpoint that Base Goku was weaker than Pure Boo/Oob. So Goku training with him would mean that Goku would over the years end up being as strong as his "SSJ3 Boo arc"-self. But now that these movies have come out, it would take Oob all these years to catch up to Goku.

This is a fallacy only because the things that take place in BoG and FnF alter the facts of the end of the manga without actually affecting the end of the manga. You can't say that Oob being in GT automatically makes GT a continuation of all Z events because BoG and FnF would be considered Z events. Yet GT doesn't address the blue SSJ upgrade, the fact that Pilaf and the gang are turned into kids, or why Vegeta is behind Goku. The only events GT are a continuation of are the Z events that don't break it's own story.

I don't think that works that way. Just because it "breaks" GT's story, it doesn't mean it cancels the continuation. Plot holes/inconsistencies/discrepancies in Dragon Ball never affect the materials' canon nor continuity. GT is stated officially to be the next chapter of the Z manga.

GT is officially stated to be an adaptation of the original anime. Adaptations do not always imply canon. It could easily imply another universe.

Example: "Yo! Son Goku & Friends Return" (which was not animated, nor originally written by, nor illustrated by Akira Toriyama...) was stated to be canon by BOG (Battle Of Gods, material which is undeniably canon and within the Z continuity) even though it features a pretty glaring plot hole that has never been officially explained by any head(s) of the series.

Actually if you check the Akira Toriyama involvement section of the site you will see that "Yo! Son Goku & Friends Return!!" the story was made by Akira Toriyama which was then revised by Takao Koyama. The opening credits have a special credit to Akira Toriyama for the first draft of the movie. So while Toriyama didn't have any part in the finished script he did create the story.

That plot hole is the fact that people somehow know/remember (the H-word) saved them all from Boo. Which cannot be possible since they were wished to never know Boo was because that'd jeopardized Mr. Boo.

In Yo! Son Goku & Friends Return!!? I don't recall any body who wasn't part of the Z-senshi stating those things. Can you tell me at what part in the movie it says this?

This is a clear example where certain manga events break a material's story and that said material is still canon and part of the continuity.

Akira Toriyama is titled for writing the original script. So that is why the story is considered to be apart of the actual universe.

My point was that if GT isn't canon for not referencing anything from BOG/ROF, then so are both chapters 518 and 519 because they also do not refer BOG/ROF at all.

Those chapters have no reason for referencing the movies. The chapters make clear sense and don't break what is said in the movies. Akira Toriyama probably left it vague like this with the time gap for the entire purpose of filling the gap with movies.

Because GT is very inconsistent with its plot.

No Dragon Ball material is free of plot holes/discrepancies.

I don't disagree with this statement. But the plot holes are very small and can be explained away. GT in its first episode has plot holes so big that it destroys the possibility of it even being a story.

I don't know how there would be a set of Dragon Balls that could destroy the planet in plain site and not be discovered by Dende, Mr. Popo, Goku or Oob in the several decades after Piccolo re-fused with Kami. It even destroys the concept of the Dragon Balls as only Dragon Clan Namekians can make them. Piccolo is not of the Dragon Clan any more. After his reincarnation from Piccolo Daimao he becomes a Warrior Namekian. Even Nail confirms this during the Namek arc. That he and Piccolo are the only Warrior Namekian's left. Also the fact that the lookout was destroyed in the fight with Evil(Super) Boo. After the planet was restored these dragon balls would be in the place that they were destroyed. Earth. Because they would have fallen from the lookout.

All of this is 100% irrelevant.

It isn't irrelevant. Because these gaping plot-holes destroy any semblance of a story. Because if the story were to follow the actual facts of the canon universe then this story can't exist. Therefore we have to dump GT into an alternate universe to correct the glaring mistakes of the story. Even that is grasping at straws to be honest. Because there are just some things that don't add up.

So if you're going to criticize the BoG and FnF movies because they aren't mentioned in the final chapters. When they aren't actually needed to be mentioned. Then I can say the same for GT plot-points.

Yeah they do need to be mentioned because the MAIN argument about GT's continuity, especially the one you're using right now, is that GT doesn't reference any of the BOG nor ROF events and therefore it isn't in Z's continuity. You just said the blue Ascended SSJ God form not being in GT automatically ruins GT's connection/continuity to Z's manga. And I raised the rebuttal saying the final 2 Z manga chapters don't make any reference to BOG nor ROF events neither, despite having perfect opportunity to do so (when Bulma & Goku speak while Goku trains Goten), yet those final 2 chapters are undisputedly both canon and part of the manga continuity.

No, my main argument here is that the dragon ball manga/anime doesn't reference GT. Not BoG or FnF. My points were the above those black-star dragon balls were recreated almost 30 years before the GT plot-line. Yet it isn't referenced and none of the problems with them are explained away. Like how a Warrior Namek can make Dragon Balls exist, why they weren't found in the 30 years of the actual storyline leading up to GT. Why the dragon radar didn't pick them up. Why Pilaf and his gang knew there were dragon balls up there. None of these plot holes are addressed or referenced from the manga.

So no, BoG and FnF have no problems fitting into the continuity. It's GT that has problems. My secondary argument was that what you said. That GT does not reference the BoG and FnF material. But the biggest issue here is that the 30 year plot device, which is broken, isn't referenced in the original story.

And thus, my main point being: there is a universal standard in which we must hold ALL Dragon Ball material, and not just cherry pick to fit our narrative/agenda. The standard in which you hold GT is that in order for it to be a continuity of the Z manga (which it CLEARLY is, as OFFICIALLY stated by the head(s) of the series), it must reference both BOG & ROF. Okay, fine, so we if that standard holds up if we apply that to all other material that claims to be a continuation. Chapters 518 and 519 are a continuation of the events of BOG & ROF... no mention... yet we cannot invalidate both those chapters of being continuations of BOG & ROF.

Thus, that standard is invalid.

Again, above. My standard to which I hold GT is that in order for it to be a continuity of the Z manga, the Z manga must have referenced it. Yet it doesn't. It is the problems with it's plot device that are lending to my standards. BoG and FnF are only a secondary standard I would adhere GT to. There would be no problem with GT if it didn't require referencing back to an event that happened 30-ish years ago in the story. The fact that it just starts adding things to the original manga that don't even make sense is why it is a falacy.

Thus my standard is entirely valid.

Considering the upgraded SSJ is x50 it would place Goku much higher than initial SSJ4 Goku. Because BoG Goku is already above SSJ Vegetto by the end. Whereas the GT Perfect Files say that GT Goku only caught up with SSJ Vegetto when he became SSJ4.

Once again, I request a VALID/LEGIT source that states this, because that chinese comic ain't gonna cut it. So no, Z's SSJ Vegito is nowhere near SSJ4 Goku from GT.

You will have to find it out yourself. I'm just going off of what people have said on these forums.

Plot holes, inconsistencies, whatever. GT isn't free of them. No DB material is. However, since GT is stated to be a continuation of the Z manga, and this is evident because Uub is there, then that means it is. It just simply is.

GT is stated to be an adaptation of the original work. That does not mean a continuation. Dragon Ball Evolution was stated as an adaptation of Dragon Ball. Do you really think it lends any relevance to the manga or anime?

And lol at Rhild being as strong as Majin Boo. Ledgic was much stronger than Boo, let alone Rhild.

Goku is the one who says Rild is as "strong as"/"stronger than" Majin Boo. If Goku was SSJ Vegetto tier or higher in base then he would not have to worry about a character around Majin Boo's level.

Rhild beat the ever living tar out of Ultimate Gohan, and he wasn't even at full power when he rekt Ultimate Gohan. You may feel like bringing up Gohan got weaker/lost his power up, but nothing states this officially. And it is stated that Gohan never got weaker from the lack of training, he just didn't get as strong a rage boost as he used to when he faced Cell.

Gohan is nothing compared to SSJ Vegetto though. And Goku is a good chunk above even that. Gohan still managed against someone Goku had to go SSJ against in the end. So either Gohan increased his strength to over SSJ Vegetto level or Goku was a lot weaker than his BoG/FnF self.

So GT Gohan = Ultimate gohan from Boo saga.

Even if that were true, like I said above. The difference would be just too staggering for Gohan to last even a second against Rild if he was anywhere close to BoG/FnF Goku.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

The GT Perfect Files don't say anything on Vegetto.

Here's the scan from the anime comics:

Spoiler:

Not that I'd put much stock into it anyway, since if that information was from the creators of the series, they would've bothered to put it into their own guidebook (Perfect Files).

So no, BoG and FnF have no problems fitting into the continuity.

I mean, besides Goku being a freaking God and having Godly Ki, yet worried he might not be able to win against Uub at the 28th.

[Lord Beerus]

So no, BoG and FnF have no problems fitting into the continuity.

I mean, besides Goku being a freaking God and having Godly Ki, yet worried he might not be able to win against Uub at the 28th.

Well, Goku had already achieved SSJ3 by the end of the manga and that would have been enough to obliterate Kid Buu, so he really had no reason to be worried about Oob either way.

[KentalSSJ6]

The GT Perfect Files don't say anything on Vegetto.

Here's the scan from the anime comics:

Spoiler:

Not that I'd put much stock into it anyway, since if that information was from the creators of the series, they would've bothered to put it into their own guidebook (Perfect Files).

So no, BoG and FnF have no problems fitting into the continuity.

I mean, besides Goku being a freaking God and having Godly Ki, yet worried he might not be able to win against Uub at the 28th.

Fukkatsu gives him plenty of reason to be excited about Uub. Freeza became stronger than him in 4 months even AFTER he absorbed SSJG. If someone as weak as Freeza could reach such a level in a mere 4 months, how strong could the reincarnation of Buu become in a equal amount of time under Goku's training?

[Tectorman]

Gohan in his base state is drawn with the same features of his Ultimate state, so there's nothing really saying he lost his Ultimate powers.

I also don't see why the creators would say he trained if he were supposed to think he got weaker.

So if we're supposed to conclude that Gohan sum-total got stronger by GT, then the rundown becomes this:

Majin Buu = Rildo > GT Gohan > Buu Saga Gohan > any non-absorption form of Majin Buu

What the what?

Well, it makes sense if Goku was referring to Buutenks or Buuhan. So which one was it?

It's not a significant stretch to say that Goku's reference to Majin Buu could've meant "the strongest that Majin Buu ever got". It's a fair bit more of a stretch to say he meant "the second strongest that Majin Buu ever got".

So if GT Goku was supposed to be equal to Buuhan, then that makes him marginally weaker than Vegetto. Which makes his SSJ3 only marginally weaker than Vegetto's hypothetical SSJ3.

Baby Vegeta, on the other hand, was significantly stronger than SSJ3 Goku, which would make him stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto.

So if his line about "now gaining the greatest of Saiyan power" wasn't just villainous bragging, then he had to go from not being stronger than someone else to being stronger than someone else. Except he was already stronger than every single Saiyan that exists and ever did exist, ever.

So no matter what, something has to be ignored. Otherwise, it makes character strength analysis in GT the functional equivalent of dividing by zero.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

So no matter what, something has to be ignored. Otherwise, it makes character strength analysis in GT the functional equivalent of dividing by zero.

It's not that bad, actually. We don't have to ignore anything, here: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 40#p906514

[Hitiro]

It's not that bad, actually. We don't have to ignore anything, here: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 40#p906514

I had a look at your numbers and it doesn't really make sense if we include BoG or FnF. Because Goku would be above SSJ Vegetto with his God Ki absorption right off the bat. For Goku to be that strong then Rild must be a lot stronger than Gohan. To the point that one move would oneshot Gohan. Neither Gohan or Rild were one-shot material for their respective opponents even if they were both on the losing end. So Goku, Rild and Gohan must be pretty close to each other. Meaning that in the gap between BoG and GT Gohan had to have increased his power to at least be in the ball park of SSJ Vegetto. Majoob would also be way stronger than Base Godku as Majoob one-shot Rild. He also put up a decent fight against Bebi compared to SSJ3 Goku. So apparently the fusion of Oob and Mr. Boo was enough to increase Oob's power by a massive amount. If Goku managed to find a way to keep his SSJ3 Multiplier then Majoob is practically over 400 SSJ Vegetto's worth of strength if we're going to include BoG and FnF battle powers in this.

If you leave out the BoG and FnF material then Goku getting up to SSJ3 tier in his base form is a much more comfortable increase in Majoob's power.

[buutenks]

I wouldnt use god goku and so on to gt,cos its a different time line/universe w/e you want to think of it.So they have no connection.

GT base goku is around ssj3 goku's power level at the end of the buu saga(based on goku's statement that general rildo is on majin buu's level and fighting him roughly evenly in base form).So already there is a insane difference between base z goku and base gt goku.

His ssj3 form in gt would be on vegetto's level if not higher.And ssj4 much higher.

So taking in account that goku said that even fusion might not work(but then how can he tell since he cant sense beerus ki?) on beerus,id say its definitely up there to ssj4 level.

But id still put ssj4 above simply because of preference.

Edit:Either way the fusion/potara rings have some ridiculous multipliers.

[GTx10]

I didn't read any of these posts, but I still think BoG isn't much compared to GT top tiers. I wouldn't put Beers or Whis above Super #17, personally.

Why is that exactly? Let's look at it like this:

Super Saiyan (something) Vegeta and "My Bulma!" Vegeta could do nothing to Lord Beers. (I put "something" because I have no idea if Vegeta was SS1 or 2 when he first fought The Destroyer)

SS3 Son Goku and to some extent SSG Goku

Ultimate Gohan

SS1 Gotenks

(Fat) Majin Buu

and everyone else were beaten by Lord Beers.


Now Super Baby Vegeta (the form before Great Ape) beat

SS3 Son Goku (various factors in play)

(Fat) Majin Buu

Oob and was able to overcome Super Oob.

Super 17 beat:

SS (something) Vegeta

SS (something) Gohan

SS1 Goten and Trunks

Super Oob (He was in the battle right? I should rewatch GT lol)

SS4 Goku (because he absorbed Goku's SS4 power)

Omega Shenron beat:

SS4 Goku and Vegeta

SS (something) Gohan

SS1 Goten and Trunks

Super Oob

By these accounts Lord Beers and the GT bad three have similar track records. SSG and SS4 are stronger than SS3, SS4 could beat Super Baby without issue. SSG could not beat Lord Beers. SS4 could beat Super 17 if Son Kun wasn't giving away his energy. Finally two SS4 could probably beat Syn Shenron. It sounds like SS4 is doing better than SSG.

Finally I'd like to point out a little fun note. My friend said to me "Lord Beers is stronger than Omega Shenron because Shenron feared Lord Beers!" (A fun little tidbit)

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

It's not that bad, actually. We don't have to ignore anything, here: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 40#p906514

I had a look at your numbers and it doesn't really make sense if we include BoG or FnF. Because Goku would be above SSJ Vegetto with his God Ki absorption right off the bat. For Goku to be that strong then Rild must be a lot stronger than Gohan. To the point that one move would oneshot Gohan. Neither Gohan or Rild were one-shot material for their respective opponents even if they were both on the losing end. So Goku, Rild and Gohan must be pretty close to each other. Meaning that in the gap between BoG and GT Gohan had to have increased his power to at least be in the ball park of SSJ Vegetto. Majoob would also be way stronger than Base Godku as Majoob one-shot Rild. He also put up a decent fight against Bebi compared to SSJ3 Goku. So apparently the fusion of Oob and Mr. Boo was enough to increase Oob's power by a massive amount. If Goku managed to find a way to keep his SSJ3 Multiplier then Majoob is practically over 400 SSJ Vegetto's worth of strength if we're going to include BoG and FnF battle powers in this.

If you leave out the BoG and FnF material then Goku getting up to SSJ3 tier in his base form is a much more comfortable increase in Majoob's power.

I don't include BoG/FnF together with GT.

Why is that exactly?

GT is über haxed.

[Confidence Matters]

Both the GT Perfect Files and the GT Anime Comic also said it. I can't confirm the GT Perfect Files because I'm just relying on information told to me but there are scans of the GT Anime Comic in Chinese. And Herms said that on a Chinese DB forum the guy claims it also says it for the GT Anime Comic in Japanese. So believe what you will. If you really want to find out about this then you could always track down a Japanese version of the GT Anime Comic yourself and post it in the translation section to have it confirmed or check the GT Perfect Files, I think I saw someone say it was in volume 2? But again, this is information I'm relying on other people.

GT Perfect Files says no such thing. Stop trying to create BS just to fit your narrative.

The comic in question I have seen a million times and it has been used to underpower the fuck out of GT characters. That comic is NOT from any official source. It is a chinese comic from god knows where, probably translated from JAPANESE and then translated to english. Do you even have the slightest idea of how much of a clusterfuck that is!?

There is no way you can serious use that comic as any type of official source - therefore, it is irrelevant and Z's SSJ Vegito was never stated to be anywhere near GT's Goku SSJ4 (it doesn't even specify which SSJ4 for crying out loud, since Goku has 2 different SSJ4's ascended and normal. Not to mention whatever Vegeta's is, which managed to be somehow equal to Goku's SSJ4 for fusion)

Don't tell me to find it on my own either, YOU'RE the one making claims that Z's SSJ Vegito is roughly equal to GT Goku's SSJ4, the burden of proof is ON YOU. YOU fetch that and post it. I already know you won't find anything, I've searched every corner of the net. For that, and for the Dragon Ball Online interviews.

I don't really see your point.

Wow. I'm pretty sure everyone else caught that. a 1.1x increase from 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 is much bigger than a 1.1x increase from 10,000. Therefore, at such power levels, that 1.1x increase makes a HUGE difference.

Goku SSJ4's level = 1 quintillion (example) x 1.1 = a massive power level boost

I can't argue that it isn't possible for the form to look like the original. But then if you're going to treat this as the case, it still doesn't make sense why Goku would use SSJ2 or SSJ3 in GT. Because Akira Toriyama stated in the interview that Goku would only use base and SSJ from now on. BoG shows us that the regular SSJ does not increase his battle power after the SSJGod power up. And in this movie Goku specifically finds a way to get SSJ to access God power so he can actually increase his power.

Unless within the 10 years post-Pure Boo, Goku finds a way to harness God power in his later transformations, which would actually point to him having a blue aura with at least SSJ3 because it isn't a form that someone can master. Then Goku transforming into any other form other than SSJ1 does not make sense.

This would fall into plot holes/discrepancies. Even so, it doesn't invalidate GT's canonicity nor continuity. Akira does - and he specifically mention GT as a side-story, making it non-canon. Nothing was ever noted by AT/heads of the series that ever went against its stated continuation by the heads of the series. Thus, GT is a non-canon continuation of the Z manga events.

Learning to fight his opponents does not suggest his battle power is sky-rocketing. It suggests he is learning how to do combat. Things like dodging, punching, kicking. Obviously Goku would take damage if he is suppressed. Do you honestly think Godku would fight at 100% against a kid who Goku doesn't know if he has tapped into his power? What if Goku hit Oob at 100% of his power while Oob was suppressed to a battle power of 5? Goku is going to blow his head off like that. Goku could hurt Freeza while Freeza was suppressed. So could other characters. Goku could hurt Cell despite the massive difference. Vegeta also damaged Beerus in BoG. Do you honestly think Vegeta's battle power increased to match Beerus top battle power? I highly doubt it. So Oob hurting Goku's arm, or making it tingle is nothing to go on.

I mean if you even want to consider this you have to remember that Godku is stronger than SSJ Vegetto, who would easily take Pure Boo/Oob apart. And SSJ Vegetto isn't going to take damage from him either. So why is it that Godku who is stronger than SSJ Vegetto would take damage from a character much weaker than SSJ Vegetto whereas SSJ Vegetto would easily tank any attack from Pure Boo?

First off, Goku wasn't sure he'd be able to win against the finalist in that tournament. This automatically insinuates Goku didn't hold back his God powers. Goku didn't hold back anything because if he did, Uub would have had an easy victory and Goku knew that. Besides, it is not stated in the manga that Godku held back whatsoever. Sure he didn't go blue haired saiyan or SSJ3, but once again, this type of speculation is useless because the Gods chapter/10 year time gap after Boo is not finished yet. Maybe they pull a Mystic Gohan later on and Goku's max power is now at its max at all times, with his ki undetected by mortals. etc. Thus he never needed to transform.

As for Uub being only as strong as Kid Boo - maybe when he was born that is. Nothing in the manga states Uub's level is strictly capped at Kid Boo's max level. And the fact that he wobbles Godku's arm, and causes hefty damage to Godku with his Ki Cannon clearly puts him far beyond any Boo ever. The fact that he excites Godku is clear indicator of Uub's fearsomeness. He wouldn't get that excited - especially after facing Beerus, God Vegeta, and Whis, and now Golden Frieza - for a kid who was roughly the same level of Kid Boo who is now eons lower than what he has dealt with a couple of years after.

So this would prove that Vegeta's statement about Uub learning to fight also implying his level skyrockets as well as the fight goes on.

While this would be true eventually we have to look at this from an opposite viewpoint. Before these movies we were of the standpoint that Base Goku was weaker than Pure Boo/Oob. So Goku training with him would mean that Goku would over the years end up being as strong as his "SSJ3 Boo arc"-self. But now that these movies have come out, it would take Oob all these years to catch up to Goku.

Orrrrrrrrrrrr Uub is just THAT great of a prodigy and managed to almost close the gap between him and Godku in that tournament, which made Godku want to take him on as not only an apprentice, but a WORTHY opponent. Godku's main goal was to get Uub to his level if not beyond.

GT is officially stated to be an adaptation of the original anime. Adaptations do not always imply canon. It could easily imply another universe.

Please source me where is it that says GT is a continuation of the Z anime? No head of the series states this. It was simply stated GT is the next chapter of the dragon ball journey.

Actually if you check the Akira Toriyama involvement section of the site you will see that "Yo! Son Goku & Friends Return!!" the story was made by Akira Toriyama which was then revised by Takao Koyama. The opening credits have a special credit to Akira Toriyama for the first draft of the movie. So while Toriyama didn't have any part in the finished script he did create the story.

If you watch the movie, the only credit AT gets is being the original author of the series, not of the special. As for its manga, Naho Ooishi illustrated it. A literal fangirl.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon ... nds_Return!!

"Written by:

Takao Koyama (screenplay)

Akira Toriyama (original series author)"

In Yo! Son Goku & Friends Return!!? I don't recall any body who wasn't part of the Z-senshi stating those things. Can you tell me at what part in the movie it says this?

The special makes quite a big contradiction to the wish made of no one but the Z Fighters themselves remembering the threat of Majin Buu, both when it is shown that Mr. Satan names his hotel after "him defeating Buu" and when he is asked about the monster by the press.

Akira Toriyama is titled for writing the original script. So that is why the story is considered to be apart of the actual universe.

He is titled as being the original author of the series.

Those chapters have no reason for referencing the movies. The chapters make clear sense and don't break what is said in the movies. Akira Toriyama probably left it vague like this with the time gap for the entire purpose of filling the gap with movies.

Chapters 518 and 519 establishes that the last time everyone saw each other was 5 years ago at Bulma's birthday party. And no one brings up Beerus, Whis, nor SSJ God Ritual, etc. Nor is Frieza's resurrection mention.

Another huge discrepancy that has not been officially explained by the head(s) of the series is that Uub excites Godku and makes him doubt himself of the championship.

These plot holes and failures to reference any of the BOG & ROF events would, by YOUR standards, invalidate chapters 518 and 519 from being a continuation of the Z manga.

So, since it is impossible to invalidate those chapters, at least based on that standard, then you cannot use that exact same standard to invalidate GT's continuity neither. One standard has to apply to all DB chapters or else it isn't a valid standard.

I don't disagree with this statement. But the plot holes are very small and can be explained away. GT in its first episode has plot holes so big that it destroys the possibility of it even being a story.

Nah. Plot holes and discrepancies are plot holes and discrepancies. You cannot pick and choose, and then rationalize them away. These things have never been explained by any of the heads of the series and thus are plot holes. DB has them, Z has them and GT has them. Even the JUMP2008 special, BOG & ROF now too.

It isn't irrelevant. Because these gaping plot-holes destroy any semblance of a story. Because if the story were to follow the actual facts of the canon universe then this story can't exist. Therefore we have to dump GT into an alternate universe to correct the glaring mistakes of the story. Even that is grasping at straws to be honest. Because there are just some things that don't add up.

It is because we can take any story and nitpick it JUST like this.

It is what it is - a plot hole / inconsistency.

Piccolo made some new dragon balls for GT's plot. That's it.

No, my main argument here is that the dragon ball manga/anime doesn't reference GT. Not BoG or FnF. My points were the above those black-star dragon balls were recreated almost 30 years before the GT plot-line. Yet it isn't referenced and none of the problems with them are explained away. Like how a Warrior Namek can make Dragon Balls exist, why they weren't found in the 30 years of the actual storyline leading up to GT. Why the dragon radar didn't pick them up. Why Pilaf and his gang knew there were dragon balls up there. None of these plot holes are addressed or referenced from the manga.

So no, BoG and FnF have no problems fitting into the continuity. It's GT that has problems. My secondary argument was that what you said. That GT does not reference the BoG and FnF material. But the biggest issue here is that the 30 year plot device, which is broken, isn't referenced in the original story.

That's a retarded point because Goku being a saiyan and having parents and a brother named Raditz had NEVER been referenced in DB prior to Z neither. It just happened and you go with it. Welcome to Dragon Ball.

Again, above. My standard to which I hold GT is that in order for it to be a continuity of the Z manga, the Z manga must have referenced it. Yet it doesn't. It is the problems with it's plot device that are lending to my standards. BoG and FnF are only a secondary standard I would adhere GT to. There would be no problem with GT if it didn't require referencing back to an event that happened 30-ish years ago in the story. The fact that it just starts adding things to the original manga that don't even make sense is why it is a falacy.

Thus my standard is entirely valid.

Again, chapter 517 doesn't reference JUMP2008 special, nor BOG, nor ROF. Neither do the chapters 518 and 519.

Yet they're still part of the manga's continuity. Still canon too.

You can't use that standard to invalidate GT, period.

Besides, Goku, Uub and the rest of the cast/universe is the device they use to reference/connect Z & GT. Uub training with Goku is a continuation of Z.

You will have to find it out yourself. I'm just going off of what people have said on these forums.

Yeahhh, no. Burden of proof is on you, as I said before. Cite or your statement is invalid.

GT is stated to be an adaptation of the original work. That does not mean a continuation. Dragon Ball Evolution was stated as an adaptation of Dragon Ball. Do you really think it lends any relevance to the manga or anime?

Still waiting for this quote or source...

My source:

"This January, Nicktoons is bringing you the next chapter of the dragon ball journey"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIU4vnmKAnc

That is CLEARLY a continuation of the Dragon Ball journey.

Goku is the one who says Rild is as "strong as"/"stronger than" Majin Boo. If Goku was SSJ Vegetto tier or higher in base then he would not have to worry about a character around Majin Boo's level.

Except Goku was NEVER worried for Rhild. He was fired up as fuck to fight Rhild, while Trunks was sweating. Goku showed himself to be far superior to Rhild anyhow.

And BTW, Goku states "His ki is larger than Boo's..."

Gohan is nothing compared to SSJ Vegetto though. And Goku is a good chunk above even that. Gohan still managed against someone Goku had to go SSJ against in the end. So either Gohan increased his strength to over SSJ Vegetto level or Goku was a lot weaker than his BoG/FnF self.

Nah, Gohan at the very least is still as strong as he was in the Bootenks fight.

Nowhere it is stated that Gohan increased his strength, nor got weaker.

Rhild beat the tar out of GT Gohan anyhow. GT Gohan didn't even land a hit and was a few seconds away from being finished if it were ot by Majuub blindsiding Rhild and killing him.

Even if that were true, like I said above. The difference would be just too staggering for Gohan to last even a second against Rild if he was anywhere close to BoG/FnF Goku.

Rhild held back because he wasn't in his real form. Which, BTW is never stated to need the M2 planet - it is a physical transformation with the plus side of using the planets metal as an ally. He was still a humanoid being with an increased power level without it.

[Duo]

GT is über haxed.

Pretty much. Even the smartest, best intentioned, biggest fan of GT (if such a thing really exists) couldn't really make heads and tails of everything in GT without filling in a lot of gaps and ignoring a few details outright. And that's not even touching on thematic and narrative criticism of the whole thing.

[Hugo Boss]

Fukkatsu gives him plenty of reason to be excited about Uub. Freeza became stronger than him in 4 months even AFTER he absorbed SSJG. If someone as weak as Freeza could reach such a level in a mere 4 months, how strong could the reincarnation of Buu become in a equal amount of time under Goku's training?

Hmm maybe you have a point, but still that wouldn't explain why before that coming into reality Goku would need 100% of his stamina to fight Oob or saying that Oob had a chance of winning the tournament. Though, these two situations can be retconned.

For now, I'm still from the opinion that these forms are just different ways to access the same potential that is hidden inside Goku. Even the holding-hands-thing is similar.

[Cipher]

Pretty much. Even the smartest, best intentioned, biggest fan of GT (if such a thing really exists) couldn't really make heads and tails of everything in GT without filling in a lot of gaps and ignoring a few details outright. And that's not even touching on thematic and narrative criticism of the whole thing.

I like GT quite a bit. The only things super weird about it are the Boo-Rhild line and Gohan's ambiguous power (which is now present in the manga/BOG timeline as well), neither of which should be confusing enough to keep even the most comparison-obsesses fan up at night. It manages to be pretty consistent most of the time, though it plays looser with its fights than Z.

[Duo]

Pretty much. Even the smartest, best intentioned, biggest fan of GT (if such a thing really exists) couldn't really make heads and tails of everything in GT without filling in a lot of gaps and ignoring a few details outright. And that's not even touching on thematic and narrative criticism of the whole thing.

I like GT quite a bit. The only things super weird about it are the Boo-Rhild line and Gohan's ambiguous power (which is now present in the manga/BOG timeline as well), neither of which should be confusing enough to keep even the most comparison-obsesses fan up at night. It manages to be pretty consistent most of the time, though it plays looser with its fights than Z.

I would enjoy working through some of those logistics with you in order to see your viewpoint better on that. Feel free to start a PM conversation with me if you have the time to lay out a loose strength chart for it all. My exposure to GT is relatively limited (I've seen about 85% of the show, only dubbed), so quite a bit of my statements are informed by secondary information. I would argue, however, that the first point you brought up (Rildo or Rhild or whatever his name is, doesn't matter) is pretty damned egregious. My problem with the show is entirely on foundation - from early on all of the strength comparisons have been severely muddled to the point of making anything later down impossible on said foundation.

[Hitiro]

Both the GT Perfect Files and the GT Anime Comic also said it. I can't confirm the GT Perfect Files because I'm just relying on information told to me but there are scans of the GT Anime Comic in Chinese. And Herms said that on a Chinese DB forum the guy claims it also says it for the GT Anime Comic in Japanese. So believe what you will. If you really want to find out about this then you could always track down a Japanese version of the GT Anime Comic yourself and post it in the translation section to have it confirmed or check the GT Perfect Files, I think I saw someone say it was in volume 2? But again, this is information I'm relying on other people.

GT Perfect Files says no such thing. Stop trying to create BS just to fit your narrative.

For starters I am not creating BS to fit my narrative. I was just using what I had been told. So I would thank you to keep your harsh comments to yourself.

The comic in question I have seen a million times and it has been used to underpower the fuck out of GT characters. That comic is NOT from any official source. It is a chinese comic from god knows where, probably translated from JAPANESE and then translated to english. Do you even have the slightest idea of how much of a clusterfuck that is!?

If you would check the comments above somebody already said it is from the GT anime comic. Herms also confirmed that it is a legitimate comic because he just doesn't know if the Japanese version has what is said in the Chinese one because he hasn't bought it yet.

There is no way you can serious use that comic as any type of official source - therefore, it is irrelevant and Z's SSJ Vegito was never stated to be anywhere near GT's Goku SSJ4 (it doesn't even specify which SSJ4 for crying out loud, since Goku has 2 different SSJ4's ascended and normal. Not to mention whatever Vegeta's is, which managed to be somehow equal to Goku's SSJ4 for fusion)

Any source material is relevant if it was produced officially. The GT anime comic was an official production thus it holds as much clout as any official source material that talks about the characters.

Don't tell me to find it on my own either, YOU'RE the one making claims that Z's SSJ Vegito is roughly equal to GT Goku's SSJ4, the burden of proof is ON YOU. YOU fetch that and post it. I already know you won't find anything, I've searched every corner of the net. For that, and for the Dragon Ball Online interviews.

I'm not going to go and buy stuff I can't afford just to prove that the source material says what it does. If you want to see what was said about it then search the forums. Somebody above has already posted the source. Whether it be Chinese or Japanese, it is still a source. You'll have to wait until the staff at this site purchase the Japanese version if you really want clarification. If you honestly aren't going to do it yourself. I have made my point and I don't feel it necessary to go any further than I have to prove something.

I don't really see your point.

Wow. I'm pretty sure everyone else caught that. a 1.1x increase from 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 is much bigger than a 1.1x increase from 10,000. Therefore, at such power levels, that 1.1x increase makes a HUGE difference.

No, it doesn't. What you're forgetting here is relativistic scale. It doesn't matter how much you bloat the number, a 1.1x increase is nothing compared to the original value. Because 10% of a number is always going to be 10%. If Goku was the same battle power as Nappa was in the Saiyan arc. Do you honestly think a character with 4,400 is going to make much difference? In the story there are several times where such a difference would have meant nothing.

Goku SSJ4's level = 1 quintillion (example) x 1.1 = a massive power level boost

Being relative to the storyline a 10% increase is going to mean nothing in a fight. That's just how it works.

I can't argue that it isn't possible for the form to look like the original. But then if you're going to treat this as the case, it still doesn't make sense why Goku would use SSJ2 or SSJ3 in GT. Because Akira Toriyama stated in the interview that Goku would only use base and SSJ from now on. BoG shows us that the regular SSJ does not increase his battle power after the SSJGod power up. And in this movie Goku specifically finds a way to get SSJ to access God power so he can actually increase his power.

Unless within the 10 years post-Pure Boo, Goku finds a way to harness God power in his later transformations, which would actually point to him having a blue aura with at least SSJ3 because it isn't a form that someone can master. Then Goku transforming into any other form other than SSJ1 does not make sense.

This would fall into plot holes/discrepancies. Even so, it doesn't invalidate GT's canonicity nor continuity. Akira does - and he specifically mention GT as a side-story, making it non-canon. Nothing was ever noted by AT/heads of the series that ever went against its stated continuation by the heads of the series. Thus, GT is a non-canon continuation of the Z manga events.

Akira's comment of it being a side-story does alter the perception of whether this can be regarded as the same continuity at the very least. Because "side-story" can, more often than not, be a nod towards a "Spin-off" event in stories. If this was an actual continuation of the story, even non-canon, then Akira Toriyama would have said so. Not call it a side-story.

Learning to fight his opponents does not suggest his battle power is sky-rocketing. It suggests he is learning how to do combat. Things like dodging, punching, kicking. Obviously Goku would take damage if he is suppressed. Do you honestly think Godku would fight at 100% against a kid who Goku doesn't know if he has tapped into his power? What if Goku hit Oob at 100% of his power while Oob was suppressed to a battle power of 5? Goku is going to blow his head off like that. Goku could hurt Freeza while Freeza was suppressed. So could other characters. Goku could hurt Cell despite the massive difference. Vegeta also damaged Beerus in BoG. Do you honestly think Vegeta's battle power increased to match Beerus top battle power? I highly doubt it. So Oob hurting Goku's arm, or making it tingle is nothing to go on.

I mean if you even want to consider this you have to remember that Godku is stronger than SSJ Vegetto, who would easily take Pure Boo/Oob apart. And SSJ Vegetto isn't going to take damage from him either. So why is it that Godku who is stronger than SSJ Vegetto would take damage from a character much weaker than SSJ Vegetto whereas SSJ Vegetto would easily tank any attack from Pure Boo?

First off, Goku wasn't sure he'd be able to win against the finalist in that tournament. This automatically insinuates Goku didn't hold back his God powers. Goku didn't hold back anything because if he did, Uub would have had an easy victory and Goku knew that. Besides, it is not stated in the manga that Godku held back whatsoever. Sure he didn't go blue haired saiyan or SSJ3, but once again, this type of speculation is useless because the Gods chapter/10 year time gap after Boo is not finished yet. Maybe they pull a Mystic Gohan later on and Goku's max power is now at its max at all times, with his ki undetected by mortals. etc. Thus he never needed to transform.

Goku's only comment on winning the tournament was that someone other than him, Vegeta, Pan, Goten, Trunks or Boo could win. He never specifically states himself. And it doesn't matter if this is the case either because you have to remember that Goku is talking in regard to the tournament setting. What do you think would happen if he and Vegeta go up against each other in the first round? Obviously Goku isn't going to be able to fight Boo if Vegeta pushes Goku to his limits. Or if Vegeta wins but gets exhausted from the fight then he won't be able to win either. Also, nothing is stopping another character from getting a ring-out on any of them either. Kiai's are very effective weapons at pushing superior opponents.

As for Uub being only as strong as Kid Boo - maybe when he was born that is. Nothing in the manga states Uub's level is strictly capped at Kid Boo's max level. And the fact that he wobbles Godku's arm, and causes hefty damage to Godku with his Ki Cannon clearly puts him far beyond any Boo ever. The fact that he excites Godku is clear indicator of Uub's fearsomeness. He wouldn't get that excited - especially after facing Beerus, God Vegeta, and Whis, and now Golden Freeza - for a kid who was roughly the same level of Kid Boo who is now eons lower than what he has dealt with a couple of years after.

I never said his power was restricted to Pure Boo's maximum level. But it is clear he doesn't have access to the well of Ki that Pure Boo left him with through the reincarnation otherwise he would have killed a lot of people growing up. And he would have killed people in the tournament by accident. As I pointed out in my last post to you just because Goku's arm wobbles does not mean that he is anywhere near Goku's level. Because Goku would have to suppress to fight him. Freeza got injured by Goku while suppressed. Cell got injured by Goku while suppressed. And Kiai's knocking about characters much stronger than them has always been a thing but that is probably due to Goku suppressing as well. Goku did it against Freeza. Tenshinhan did it with his Kiai based attack, the Shin Kikoho, against Cell.

So this would prove that Vegeta's statement about Uub learning to fight also implying his level skyrockets as well as the fight goes on.

Everything I just said above just disproves that learning to fight meant about his battle power sky-rocketing.

While this would be true eventually we have to look at this from an opposite viewpoint. Before these movies we were of the standpoint that Base Goku was weaker than Pure Boo/Oob. So Goku training with him would mean that Goku would over the years end up being as strong as his "SSJ3 Boo arc"-self. But now that these movies have come out, it would take Oob all these years to catch up to Goku.

Orrrrrrrrrrrr Uub is just THAT great of a prodigy and managed to almost close the gap between him and Godku in that tournament, which made Godku want to take him on as not only an apprentice, but a WORTHY opponent. Godku's main goal was to get Uub to his level if not beyond.

Oob managed to close the gap between him and a heavily suppressed Godku. If you want to talk like Oob put up a good fight against a character much more powerful than SSJ Vegetto. Then I suggest you recollect the fight between Goku and Cell. The fight seemed fairly even yet that was only because Cell was suppressing. Once he unleashed his full power it would have been completely one sided. The only reason I can think that Godku chose Oob to get as strong as him is because he was already born with a lot of power still untapped. So he would have the most potential.

GT is officially stated to be an adaptation of the original anime. Adaptations do not always imply canon. It could easily imply another universe.

Please source me where is it that says GT is a continuation of the Z anime? No head of the series states this. It was simply stated GT is the next chapter of the dragon ball journey.

You're the one who was saying GT is a continuation of the anime. Please provide me with a source of that. GT is not the next chapter of the Dragon Ball journey because Akira Toriyama calls it a side-story. Not the main story. Therefore it is more a spin-off than the "next chapter" of Dragon Ball.

Actually if you check the Akira Toriyama involvement section of the site you will see that "Yo! Son Goku & Friends Return!!" the story was made by Akira Toriyama which was then revised by Takao Koyama. The opening credits have a special credit to Akira Toriyama for the first draft of the movie. So while Toriyama didn't have any part in the finished script he did create the story.

If you watch the movie, the only credit AT gets is being the original author of the series, not of the special. As for its manga, Naho Ooishi illustrated it. A literal fangirl.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon ... nds_Return!!

You're relying in the dragonball wikia? It usually has an abundance of things wrong with it and this is a prime example. Like I said, if you check this sites section on "Akira Toriyama contributions to anime" under the Jump Super Anime Tour title, it says that he was the one who made the first-draft of the script. As well as two accreditations in the opening credits. One saying that about the first-draft and the second about him being the original creator of the story(Dragon Ball). So unless this site is lying to us now I'd prefer to believe this over a wiki that has been wrong on numerous occasions.

The special makes quite a big contradiction to the wish made of no one but the Z Fighters themselves remembering the threat of Majin Buu, both when it is shown that Mr. Satan names his hotel after "him defeating Buu" and when he is asked about the monster by the press.

And you know the specific contents of the wish? How do you know they didn't just wish the peoples memory of what Majin Boo looks like?

Akira Toriyama is titled for writing the original script. So that is why the story is considered to be apart of the actual universe.

He is titled as being the original author of the series.

He is titled with both if you check this sites "Akira Toriyama contributions to anime" section. Like I said.

Those chapters have no reason for referencing the movies. The chapters make clear sense and don't break what is said in the movies. Akira Toriyama probably left it vague like this with the time gap for the entire purpose of filling the gap with movies.

Chapters 518 and 519 establishes that the last time everyone saw each other was 5 years ago at Bulma's birthday party. And no one brings up Beerus, Whis, nor SSJ God Ritual, etc. Nor is Freeza's resurrection mention.

Like I said. Purposely vague. There is no reason for them to bring up anything but them not seeing Goku in over 5 years. The direction of the conversation does not need to go in that direction at all.

Another huge discrepancy that has not been officially explained by the head(s) of the series is that Uub excites Godku and makes him doubt himself of the championship.

I would imagine it would be pretty exciting to have a chance at bringing up a new warrior who is already innately more powerful than most of the other characters. Like I also said above, of course Godku is going to doubt himself during the tournament. At that point in time he had not formulated the idea of cheating to fight Oob first. If Goku had to go up against Vegeta before he fought Oob then obviously Goku may not be able to win.

These plot holes and failures to reference any of the BOG & ROF events would, by YOUR standards, invalidate chapters 518 and 519 from being a continuation of the Z manga.

These are not plot holes. They are just points that you have not thought much about. It's easy to see why Goku would think he may not win. Goku talks like anybody could get the final round of the tournament but it might not be any of them. His actual line from the Viz translation is "Don't worry. If any of us gets to the end. We'll let you win." Why say that if it is obvious who is the strongest there? Because in a tournament setting anything could happen. Goku and Vegeta could fight each other to the point of exhaustion so that Goten, Trunks, Pan or Boo could beat the winner between the two most powerful characters. Then Oob could beat the rest.

So, since it is impossible to invalidate those chapters, at least based on that standard, then you cannot use that exact same standard to invalidate GT's continuity neither. One standard has to apply to all DB chapters or else it isn't a valid standard.

No need to invalidate those chapters. Nothing is said that harms the standard I have said.

Nah. Plot holes and discrepancies are plot holes and discrepancies. You cannot pick and choose, and then rationalize them away. These things have never been explained by any of the heads of the series and thus are plot holes. DB has them, Z has them and GT has them. Even the JUMP2008 special, BOG & ROF now too.

There is a difference between having a plot hole that just makes characters look stupid and a plot hole that breaks the entire story. The whole wishing people back to life in the Boo arc and them not wondering why Gohan didn't get revived is stupidity. But GT has something that has existed for nearly half of the story yet it is never found out and it doesn't make sense considering Warrior Namekian's cannot make dragon balls.

It isn't irrelevant. Because these gaping plot-holes destroy any semblance of a story. Because if the story were to follow the actual facts of the canon universe then this story can't exist. Therefore we have to dump GT into an alternate universe to correct the glaring mistakes of the story. Even that is grasping at straws to be honest. Because there are just some things that don't add up.

It is because we can take any story and nitpick it JUST like this.

They aren't nitpicks. They are glaring problems with the story. The characters not realising Gohan should have been revived in the Boo arc(if he was dead) is nitpicking.

It is what it is - a plot hole / inconsistency.

Piccolo made some new dragon balls for GT's plot. That's it.

It goes against the source material that Warrior Namekian's can't make dragon balls. It also doesn't make sense due to the fact that those dragon balls should have been picked up by the dragon radar. Even assuming they were shielded by the temple somehow, you're going to tell me that Mr. Popo and Dende have been there for 30 years without so much as noticing them? And they should be on Earth anyway because they would have fallen from the lookout during the fight with Evil Boo and SSJ3 Gotenks. They would have been restored where they were destroyed. Not to mention how did PIlaf magically know there were Dragon Balls up on the lookout? How did he even get past Karin and Yajirobe? And how did they bridge the gap between Karin's tower and the lookout when they were using mech's that can't fly?

That's a retarded point because Goku being a saiyan and having parents and a brother named Raditz had NEVER been referenced in DB prior to Z neither. It just happened and you go with it. Welcome to Dragon Ball.

Nothing wrong with my point because Goku being a Saiyan never needed to be addressed over Dragon Ball pre-Saiyan arc. These black star Dragon Balls however do need to be addressed because they have spent the past 30 years in the lookout right under the noses of the characters. It's not like Raditz had been on Earth for 10 years and nobody noticed him. Which would be a point that would need to be referenced prior to the Saiyan arc. Because it would be a glaring problem.

Again, chapter 517 doesn't reference JUMP2008 special, nor BOG, nor ROF. Neither do the chapters 518 and 519.

These events don't need to be referenced because they aren't points needing to be addressed. Having super powerful dragon balls on the lookout and nobody ever noticing their existence in over 30 years worth of their existence is something that clearly needs to be referenced. Pilaf within a couple of minutes arriving there found them easily. You're telling me that Mr. Popo or Dende never went into this room ever in the past 30 years. Mr. Popo is trying to look after the lookout during all of these years and he has never been in the room?

Yet they're still part of the manga's continuity. Still canon too.

Because there is nothing needed to be addressed from these movies. The story isn't harmed by us not knowing things. In the case of GT it does because there are so many issues surrounding the black star dragon balls. It was just shoved in there with poor contrivance to give GT a plot point.

You can't use that standard to invalidate GT, period.

Pretty sure I just did. And effectively.

Besides, Goku, Uub and the rest of the cast/universe is the device they use to reference/connect Z & GT. Uub training with Goku is a continuation of Z.

Them training has no relevance to the plot. The plot is based around dragon balls that can destroy the Earth and scatter across the universe. Something that doesn't even make sense because A) Pre-seperation the Nameless Namek was not an evil person. Sure he had evil in him but the fact he wanted to become Kami and look over the people of Earth, to the point he expelled his evil, shows that he would never make dragon balls like that. B) If they were that dangerous he should have destroyed the dragon or destroyed one of the dragon balls. So they could never be used to make a wish. Not put them in the lookout. C) The Nameless Namek was of the Dragon Clan, hence his ability to make Dragon Balls. Piccolo isn't therefore these Dragon Balls shouldn't be active. D) Nobody ever noticed them since their existence.

Yeahhh, no. Burden of proof is on you, as I said before. Cite or your statement is invalid.

I have no need to cite something that has been cited before on several occasions. If you search then you'll find the relevant material. The only times I should require to cite something is when it hasn't been cited before. Therefore the burden is on you to look at the citations on here. I'm not going to waste my time finding things I honestly can't be bothered to look for. Just because I'm not the one citing things doesn't make my statement any less valid. The fact is, it does exist. And if you bothered to look then you would see for yourself.

GT is stated to be an adaptation of the original work. That does not mean a continuation. Dragon Ball Evolution was stated as an adaptation of Dragon Ball. Do you really think it lends any relevance to the manga or anime?

Still waiting for this quote or source...

Honestly it is there if you look for it.

My source:

"This January, Nicktoons is bringing you the next chapter of the dragon ball journey"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIU4vnmKAnc

That is CLEARLY a continuation of the Dragon Ball journey.

That is not a viable source. Of course Nicktoons are going to word it like that. Unless Toei Animation themselves call it the next chapter of the Dragon Ball journey this isn't viable at all. Even Akira Toriyama says this is a side-story. A side story would not be the "next chapter" in a main story. Fairy tail has side stories. One about the original Fairy Tail guild master, one about Gray Fullbuster, one about Wendy. These are not "next chapters" in Fairy Tail. They are mainly side-stories/spin-offs.

Goku is the one who says Rild is as "strong as"/"stronger than" Majin Boo. If Goku was SSJ Vegetto tier or higher in base then he would not have to worry about a character around Majin Boo's level.

Except Goku was NEVER worried for Rhild. He was fired up as fuck to fight Rhild, while Trunks was sweating. Goku showed himself to be far superior to Rhild anyhow.

If he was as strong a SSJ Vegetto or stronger then someone like Rild would have been one-shot material. I'm sorry. But even if it was fairly one-sided Rild still managed to fend off Goku until Goku busted out SSJ.

And BTW, Goku states "His ki is larger than Boo's..."

Yes, that's why I put "stronger than" above.

Gohan is nothing compared to SSJ Vegetto though. And Goku is a good chunk above even that. Gohan still managed against someone Goku had to go SSJ against in the end. So either Gohan increased his strength to over SSJ Vegetto level or Goku was a lot weaker than his BoG/FnF self.

Nah, Gohan at the very least is still as strong as he was in the Bootenks fight.

Nowhere it is stated that Gohan increased his strength, nor got weaker.

Rhild beat the tar out of GT Gohan anyhow. GT Gohan didn't even land a hit and was a few seconds away from being finished if it were ot by Majuub blindsiding Rhild and killing him.

That is the point... Rild was nowhere near the strength to one-shot Gohan. And Goku was nowhere near the strength to one-shot Rild. Majoob could one-shot Rild because Majoob was SSJ3 Goku(GT)+ Tier. If we add BoG and FnF to it then Gohan had to have increased his strength to over SSJ Vegetto levels. To have someone completely one-shot you then we're at least talking 2x their battle power. As SSJ2 Gohan managed to one-shot the Cell Jr's. Though I feel that Gohan was 4x stronger because he was enraged. Therefore Goku, Rild and Gohan are all within a comfortable range of each other.

Even if that were true, like I said above. The difference would be just too staggering for Gohan to last even a second against Rild if he was anywhere close to BoG/FnF Goku.

Rhild held back because he wasn't in his real form. Which, BTW is never stated to need the M2 planet - it is a physical transformation with the plus side of using the planets metal as an ally. He was still a humanoid being with an increased power level without it.

That means nothing. Just because he wasn't in his "real form" doesn't mean that he wasn't in the same realm of strength he was when he fought base Goku. Because he only transformed into his "real form" after Goku became a SSJ. Therefore Rild and Gohan would have to be above SSJ Vegetto and close enough to base Goku that they wouldn't get one-shot.

[Faustus]

That line comparing Rild to Boo is hardly a problem on its own, I think, as it could easily and quite unproblematically be meant to refer to Mr. Boo. It's only when you combine said line with stuff like Goku keeping Baby-possessed Ssj Gohan and Goten at bay in just his regular form, doing just the same with Freeza and Cell in Hell, and doing monumentally better in Ssj against Super 17 than Vegeta and co. that things get a bit sketchier.

EDIT: Damn, I wish I'd managed to post before Hitiro's huge omnislash...

[Herms]

The GT Perfect Files don't say anything on Vegetto.

Here's the scan from the anime comics:

Spoiler:

Not that I'd put much stock into it anyway, since if that information was from the creators of the series, they would've bothered to put it into their own guidebook (Perfect Files).

Well, the anime comics are published by Shueisha, just like the Perfect Files, so they'll equally from the series creators in that regard. The line about Vegetto being possibly stronger than SSj4 isn't directly from the mouth of any specific GT staff member, but then the Perfect Files really don't have any direct quotes like that either, in regards to anything power-related anyway. I think the closest thing to a direct staff comment on power matters is the PF's explanation that the reason Goku was made a kid again in GT was that it was felt that he had grown too strong in Z. So there you have it, the creators of GT began the series with the intention of making Goku weaker. That's right up there with Toriyama's "I came up with the name 'Dragon Ball Z' to indicate that the series would be ending soon" comment in the grand history of Stuff That Didn't Quite Pan Out As Planned.

(Rildo or Rhild or whatever his name is, doesn't matter)

It's a pun on "drill", at any rate.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

But don't the Perfect Files say he didn't lose power when turning into a kid?

[Cipher]

But don't the Perfect Files say he didn't lose power when turning into a kid?

Not great loads of it, but the way the series plays out does indicate he's lost a bit of power from his adult form.

How much stronger you believe his adult form is than it was at the end of Z is where it gets murky, and it's one of the things the Rhild-Boo line genuinely does confuse, along with things like repelling Super Saiyan Goten and Gohan, and Freeza and Cell in base form. That's what I was getting at when I said it plays its fights a bit looser than Z.

I've always watched it with the opinion that, given how earthly training seemed to reach a plateau for characters by the end of Z, Goku isn't all that much stronger by the start of GT; Goku actually loses against Rhild in his final form, so it's not unthinkable that Rhild actually is on par with pure Boo and Goku not quite at his level. He barely has a brief skirmish against Goten and Gohan before the Baby-possessed Vegeta steps in; Cell and Freeza are iffy, but at the time they're both dead and the fight never gets too intense.

On the other hand, if you want to take that no-limits approach and believe that training with Oob continued to yield results for Goku, and that Oob himself is fully at pure Boo level by the time his training is complete, the series allows for that too. Quite easily, in fact.

There's some early foundational weirdness with GT, but, apart from approaching its fights more in the vein of the movies, where it's not totally clear at points when characters are giving it their all (totally in character for a super bored Goku), it's not as if it constantly contradicts itself. I don't think it's much more, if at all more, ambiguous than Resurrection F.

Which of course makes this topic pretty difficult, though everything seems to point to this new God form being quite a bit stronger.