What are the power levels gt characters on a scale

[Darkprince410]

So in other words, it can just mean

Potara Boost >= SS4 boost

and not necessarily SS Vegetto (Buu saga) >= SS4 Goku?

Actually, Herms translated the entry awhile ago for me for a debate I was having with someone on Reddit, and this is specifically what is stated.

After Goku and Vegeta use a merging item to merge, they become Vegetto! They can furthermore become a Super Saiyan, making them Super Vegetto! After the two strongest people merge, they become the greatest master in the universe! Perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4!

Given the wording, it seems far more likely it's a comparison of Super Vegetto to Super Saiya-jin 4, and not just a comparison of the Potara earrings' boost to Ssj4.

As for Bebi Vegeta's whole "mightiest" power line, remember that this is common main villain arrogance sort of talk, and even though Goku seemingly confirmed it with his line that it's higher than anything he's ever sensed before, he's made the same kind of statement before about an opponent, only to clearly show he was stronger than them the entire time (makes the statement about Fat Janemba in movie 12, before easily defeating later him as Ssj3). As such, he doesn't include himself in the mix when he makes such statements, and since he was Vegetto at the time, he wouldn't be comparing the strength he's sensing from Bebi Vegeta to that of Vegetto.

[Dayspring]

Super Vegetto was not the only one left to surpass. Baby being in control of Vegeta's body means Vegetto doesn't exist and will not exist. Therefore, there's no possible way Vegetto can be a threat to Baby and does not need to be surpassed. You keep demanding that we address the "now obtained" portion of his claim but you're the only one who seems to be ignoring it. The words confirm that the only relevant Saiyan powers are: Vegeta, Goku, Gohan, Trunks, Goten, Bra, maybe Pan. Nobody else. Vegeta is merely the strongest out of that group. Heck, it's even possible Gotenks is stronger than Baby when he says what he does.

I don't understand why I need to repeat myself? I'll make it simple.

1. Base Baby Vegeta is the strongest currently existing Saiyan, as proven by him beating Goku, who was stronger than Gohan and Goten.

2. Base Baby Vegeta transforms into Super Baby 1

3. Only after he transforms does he claim "Power! I have now obtained the greatest of Saiyan power!"

So answer this question:

How can he have just obtained the greatest of Saiyan power when he was already stronger than every current Saiyan, if he's only referring to currently existing Saiyans?

Vegetto not existing at that current time doesn't mean his power is automatically excluded. Vegetto still happened, even if he doesn't exist, he still held the record for greatest of Saiyan powers.

I honestly can't even continue this debate anymore, why people can't accept Vegetto being fodder in GT is beyond me.

That last line of yours amuses me because it shows you honestly can't even continue this debate anymore without A) being disrespectful and pretentious and B) because you again just proved my point.

When you set a record, you're the greatest. When you beat that record, you then become the greatest by virtue of becoming even greater. That's what Vegeta did. The "now obtained" line is specifically pointing out the circumstances of when and how he obtained the greatest of Saiyan power. He's essentially saying he's stronger than Vegeta's max power, which at that point (the "now" that he's referencing) is the strongest Saiyan power.

If you're going to argue it refers to all potential powers in Saiyan history, then you're also going to have to make the claim that SSJ4 and Golden Ozaru Baby is also weaker than Super Baby Vegeta. I think we can all agree that's crazy.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

As for Bebi Vegeta's whole "mightiest" power line, remember that this is common main villain arrogance sort of talk, and even though Goku seemingly confirmed it with his line that it's higher than anything he's ever sensed before, he's made the same kind of statement before about an opponent, only to clearly show he was stronger than them the entire time (makes the statement about Fat Janemba in movie 12, before easily defeating later him as Ssj3). As such, he doesn't include himself in the mix when he makes such statements, and since he was Vegetto at the time, he wouldn't be comparing the strength he's sensing from Bebi Vegeta to that of Vegetto.

Doesn't matter if he's "arrogant", he said he has the greatest of Saiyan power, and he knows how strong Vegetto was.

See, I don't get why people always compare this situation to the Janemba situation. In Movie 12, Goku said Janemba was the strongest Ki he'd ever felt, and then showed us that despite that, he was stronger, showing us that he clearly didn't include himself in the quote.

In GT, Goku said this after he'd been indisputably shown to be inferior, and doesn't give any indication of excluding anyone. Unless Super Vegetto came and kicked Baby Vegeta's ass like Goku did to Janemba, I wouldn't see a real reason to exclude Vegetto from the statement.

That last line of yours amuses me because it shows you honestly can't even continue this debate anymore without A) being disrespectful and pretentious and B) because you again just proved my point.

Yeah, that was kind of rude. I apologize.

If you're going to argue it refers to all potential powers in Saiyan history, then you're also going to have to make the claim that SSJ4 and Golden Ozaru Baby is also weaker than Super Baby Vegeta. I think we can all agree that's crazy.

Just to clear up any confusion, are you talking about Buu saga Vegetto, or a hypothetical GT Vegetto? Because I was talking about Buu saga Vegetto.

[Dayspring]

If you're going to argue it refers to all potential powers in Saiyan history, then you're also going to have to make the claim that SSJ4 and Golden Ozaru Baby is also weaker than Super Baby Vegeta. I think we can all agree that's crazy.

Just to clear up any confusion, are you talking about Buu saga Vegetto, or a hypothetical GT Vegetto? Because I was talking about Buu saga Vegetto.

I think my point works with both, but yeah, specifically Buu saga Vegetto.

I still maintain that Baby is bragging about how he went from strongest alive to even stronger still, not that he's referencing being stronger than any potential Saiyan/fusion/form/whatever of all time. Basically, taunting Goku with a "you thought were already fucked just then? NOW look at the difference between us!" An analogy would be like had SSJ2 Goku fought a non-Majin SSJ2 Vegeta and then, after winning, went SSJ3 and bragged.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I'm fine if you interpret it like that, it just doesn't make much sense to me why he would only be talking about existing Saiyans, if he already surpassed every other existing Saiyan before even transforming.

Your point would make more sense if he had said "I have the greatest of Saiyan power!" and not "I have now obtained the greatest of Saiyan power!"

Goku also pretty much backs this statement by saying "It's true! I've never felt a Ki as awesome as this!"

And Goku knows how strong Buu saga Vegetto was.

[Dayspring]

I'm fine if you interpret it like that, it just doesn't make much sense to me why he would only be talking about existing Saiyans, if he already surpassed every other existing Saiyan before even transforming.

Your point would make more sense if he had said "I have the greatest of Saiyan power!" and not "I have now obtained the greatest of Saiyan power!"

Goku also pretty much backs this statement by saying "It's true! I've never felt a Ki as awesome as this!"

And Goku knows how strong Buu saga Vegetto was.

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree. What you consider a discrepancy, I consider to be the difference between saying "Goku is the strongest" and "SSJ3 Goku is the strongest." It's emphasis only, in my opinion.

I also disagree that Goku's comment could relate to Vegetto. You feel around for a foreign ki, not your own. In other words, Goku's referring to a ki that isn't his, but while fused, he'd have considered Vegetto's to be his. That's not to say he wouldn't know how strong Vegetto could become, so much as the statement doesn't apply to Vegetto. If it were, he would have said something that specifies fusion, like he did in BoG.

[bubibartra]

People are missing the key word...

"Power! I ---NOW--- have the greatest of Saiyan power!"

He didn't have the greatest of Saiyan power before transforming, but before transforming, he was already stronger than Goku, who was stronger than every other existing saiyan at that point.

Super Vegetto was the only Saiyan left to be surpassed.

The lengths people go to keep Vegetto relevant in GT is so baffling...

omg
It is not the same universe,
vegeta has SSGSS and fight in SSJ2???????? Vegeta not become in a Kid, not lost powers
Freezer lost his golden in the hell?
that's just impossible....
can not be compared because Gt and BOG is not in the same universe ,your now simply does not exist
and GT not continuous everything that gets Z, the films of Broly salso have a Z and is another universe

[Cetra]

I get the feeling some people here take everything that was ever said way too serious. Just like Baby threatened to destroy Goku so much he could not be revived, which I also doubt.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

People are missing the key word...

"Power! I ---NOW--- have the greatest of Saiyan power!"

He didn't have the greatest of Saiyan power before transforming, but before transforming, he was already stronger than Goku, who was stronger than every other existing saiyan at that point.

Super Vegetto was the only Saiyan left to be surpassed.

The lengths people go to keep Vegetto relevant in GT is so baffling...

omg
It is not the same universe,
vegeta has SSGSS and fight in SSJ2???????? Vegeta not become in a Kid, not lost powers
Freezer lost his golden in the hell?
that's just impossible....
can not be compared because Gt and BOG is not in the same universe ,your now simply does not exist
and GT not continuous everything that gets Z, the films of Broly salso have a Z and is another universe

Actually, GT is a continuation of Z... and Vegetto was made before GT was made, so there would be no reason to exclude him, unlike BoG and FnF characters....

I wasn't actually comparing GT and BoG (if this is the thread where I was comparing them on like the 1st two pages, that was trolling.)

[bubibartra]

People are missing the key word...

"Power! I ---NOW--- have the greatest of Saiyan power!"

He didn't have the greatest of Saiyan power before transforming, but before transforming, he was already stronger than Goku, who was stronger than every other existing saiyan at that point.

Super Vegetto was the only Saiyan left to be surpassed.

The lengths people go to keep Vegetto relevant in GT is so baffling...

omg
It is not the same universe,
vegeta has SSGSS and fight in SSJ2???????? Vegeta not become in a Kid, not lost powers
Freezer lost his golden in the hell?
that's just impossible....
can not be compared because Gt and BOG is not in the same universe ,your now simply does not exist
and GT not continuous everything that gets Z, the films of Broly salso have a Z and is another universe

Actually, GT is a continuation of Z... and Vegetto was made before GT was made, so there would be no reason to exclude him, unlike BoG and FnF characters....

I wasn't actually comparing GT and BoG (if this is the thread where I was comparing them on like the 1st two pages, that was trolling.)

It is a continuation of Dragon Ball Z ok, but Broly movies, also put dragon ball z,
Do we include broly? dragon ball z includes several different universes like movies, anime + fillers, many times incompatible with the manga and only manga,


GT is a continuation of part of Dragon Ball Z and that part is not Bog or FnF because it are incompatible with Gt.De fact, Broly movies have less problem with Gt that FnF. In my voewe, Gt is a continuation of the films is more correct. the fim also called "Dragon ball Z"

FnF only takes into account the manga,not films, not fillers, not GT.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I wasn't comparing BoG and GT, as I already said. I'm comparing Vegetto and GT.

[Marlowe89]

Of course... that's all assuming SSj God Goku is only slightly stronger than a hypothetical SSj3 Vegerot. If you go on the assumption that SSj God is further beyond that level, the GT numbers are going to shrink even lower. Alternatively, if you figure that SSj God Goku is only clearly stronger than SSj Vegerot and not the hypothetical SSj2 and SSj3 forms, there's a possibility of Omega and SSj4 Gogeta being far beyond Beerus and Whis's level.

Personal opinion:

Given Goku's comment in BoG that he couldn't possibly reach that level of power on his own in his lifetime - and given the fact that Goku obviously doesn't use anything beyond regular ki in GT - I tend to view SSG as being not just out of SS4's league, but on another dimension altogether really. SS4 Gogeta is the only GT character I can see even beginning to comprehend its strength (which might explain the reddish hair!) but overall I think it's just another example of the enormous discrepancies between BoG/RoF and GT.

[Cipher]

Somehow, SSJ Goku was able to go on par with him because, well, it was Goku time.

Goku was toyed with. Super 17 saga Goku ~ Super 17 saga Vegeta

I would hope so. But I never know with GT. =P

It's fairly clear given the way they square off at the end of the tournament episode and the enormous advantage Baby had over Goku by possessing Vegeta's body that there's not a huge gap between the characters' base forms.

Super 17 lets Goku land a few hits as a Super Saiyan before turning things around real fast. They're particularly flashy hits, mind you, but the presentation of the fights shouldn't be, and has never been, a great representation of character strength.

I don't understand why I need to repeat myself? I'll make it simple.

1. Base Baby Vegeta is the strongest currently existing Saiyan, as proven by him beating Goku, who was stronger than Gohan and Goten.

2. Base Baby Vegeta transforms into Super Baby 1

3. Only after he transforms does he claim "Power! I have now obtained the greatest of Saiyan power!"

So answer this question:

How can he have just obtained the greatest of Saiyan power when he was already stronger than every current Saiyan, if he's only referring to currently existing Saiyans?

Vegetto not existing at that current time doesn't mean his power is automatically excluded. Vegetto still happened, even if he doesn't exist, he still held the record for greatest of Saiyan powers.

How the hell would Baby even know about Vegetto?

The line is just standard battle posturing. I've personally never thought Vegetto was surpassed in GT until maybe Super Yi Xing-Long (and it seems like Herms' translation quoted above would back that up, which I never knew about), but as with many things in GT and the new movies, there are different viable readings based on where you start the characters.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

How the hell would Baby even know about Vegetto?

Baby's shown to have the memories of who he possesses, since when he's inside of Goten, he automatically knows where Goten lives, and that Vegeta was the strongest Saiyan on Earth, and who Gohan was. So logically, Baby would have Vegeta's memories of Vegetto.

The line is just standard battle posturing. I've personally never thought Vegetto was surpassed in GT until maybe Super Yi Xing-Long (and it seems like Herms' translation quoted above would back that up, which I never knew about), but as with many things in GT and the new movies, there are different viable readings based on where you start the characters.

Not really. You can't now obtain something you already had.

Super Baby 1 > previous greatest Saiyan power / greatest Ki Son has ever felt before SBV1 > SS3 Goku (Baby saga) > everyone else in GT / Z (besides Vegetto)

[Cipher]

Baby's shown to have the memories of who he possesses, since when he's inside of Goten, he automatically knows where Goten lives, and that Vegeta was the strongest Saiyan on Earth, and who Gohan was. So logically, Baby would have Vegeta's memories of Vegetto.

I'll have to watch those episodes again; I seem to remember Baby having to suss out relationships on his own after possessing people. Also, I believe he could sense battle powers? I could be wrong though, in which case, fair.

Not really. You can't now obtain something you already had.

Super Baby 1 > previous greatest Saiyan power / greatest Ki Son has ever felt before SBV1 > SS3 Goku (Baby saga) > everyone else in GT / Z (besides Vegetto)

That's a hyper-literal reading of a line that is very much in the same vein as all the previous "Now I am the hypothetical greatest!" taunts the series has featured, but hey, I guess I can't take that away from you.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I'll have to watch those episodes again; I seem to remember Baby having to suss out relationships on his own after possessing people.

When?

Also, I believe he could sense battle powers? I could be wrong though, in which case, fair.

Baby can sense Ki, but what does that have to do with the argument?

That's a hyper-literal reading of a line that is very much in the same vein as all the previous "Now I am the hypothetical greatest!" taunts the series has featured, but hey, I guess I can't take that away from you.

Which ones?

[Tectorman]

That's a hyper-literal reading of a line that is very much in the same vein as all the previous "Now I am the hypothetical greatest!" taunts the series has featured, but hey, I guess I can't take that away from you.

Which ones?

Vegeta claimed to be the strongest in the universe.

Both Ginyu and Burter referred to Burter as the fastest in the universe.

Buutenks claimed to be the greatest Majin of all time, when he knew his immediate future incarnation of Buuhan would be even stronger.

Words of utter truth or villainous bragging?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

That's a hyper-literal reading of a line that is very much in the same vein as all the previous "Now I am the hypothetical greatest!" taunts the series has featured, but hey, I guess I can't take that away from you.

Which ones?

Vegeta claimed to be the strongest in the universe.

Both Ginyu and Burter referred to Burter as the fastest in the universe.

Buutenks claimed to be the greatest Majin of all time, when he knew his immediate future incarnation of Buuhan would be even stronger.

Words of utter truth or villainous bragging?

Except their lines were not I have now obtained the greatest speed / power in the universe!

And Buu wasn't planning on absorbing Gohan before that, and Buutenks was the strongest Majin.

So how does that exactly refute SBV1 being above Super Vegetto?

[Tectorman]

Except their lines were not I have now obtained the greatest speed / power in the universe!

And Buu wasn't planning on absorbing Gohan before that, and Buutenks was the strongest Majin.

So how does that exactly refute SBV1 being above Super Vegetto?

Buu had the option of absorbing Gotenks by surprise or Gohan by surprise. Gohan asks him why he forewent the obvious choice to absorb him instead. Buu's response was that he wanted an opponent to fight against. He then notes that his current power is time-sensitive, so he must be quick.

So if he had no intentions of becoming Buuhan way back when he started fighting Gohan and only came up with that plan after getting his head-tail cut off by Goku's Energy Disk, then that means your argument is that Buutenks intended to have Gotenks power for a brief amount of time, use it to defeat Gohan, and then lose that power and go back to a lesser form and be satisfied with that lesser power for the rest of his life. I don't see that as a possibility given Buu's established personality.

And what does their lines being "I have NOW obtained the greatest of Saiyan power" or not have to do with the distinction of whether they're mere villainous bragging as opposed to true statements?

The existence of those lines means villainous bragging is a thing that exists in this universe. So why is SBV's line so assuredly not mere villainous bragging?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Buu had the option of absorbing Gotenks by surprise or Gohan by surprise. Gohan asks him why he forewent the obvious choice to absorb him instead. Buu's response was that he wanted an opponent to fight against. He then notes that his current power is time-sensitive, so he must be quick.

So if he had no intentions of becoming Buuhan way back when he started fighting Gohan and only came up with that plan after getting his head-tail cut off by Goku's Energy Disk, then that means your argument is that Buutenks intended to have Gotenks power for a brief amount of time, use it to defeat Gohan, and then lose that power and go back to a lesser form and be satisfied with that lesser power for the rest of his life. I don't see that as a possibility given Buu's established personality.

Buu explicitly tried to finish off Gohan during the fight.

And what does their lines being "I have NOW obtained the greatest of Saiyan power" or not have to do with the distinction of whether they're mere villainous bragging as opposed to true statements?

The existence of those lines means villainous bragging is a thing that exists in this universe. So why is SBV's line so assuredly not mere villainous bragging?

You're the one claiming he's wrong, so prove it.

He says he's now obtained the greatest of Saiyan power, meaning he didn't have it before he transformed. There had to be someone he surpassed, and he was stronger than all the existing Saiyans at that point, meaning: Super Vegetto was the only one left to surpass.

Notice how's it not just I have the greatest of Saiyan power, it's I have now obtained the greatest of Saiyan power!

Also, notice how right after he transforms, Goku says this: It's true! I've never felt a Ki as awesome as this!