What made GT so bad ?

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I really cannot stand the whole idea of making up your own reasons for what other fans think. Especially when they're so often really ridiculous explanations, like this one.

I'm not making up any consensus to what fans think about GT, that thought was an observation of the general attitude in regards to a lot of the reoccuring logic used to bash it; for the sake of it. People insist on pretending as if its problems didnt start from Z (Perfect Cell saga to be exact), and when they did - it makes hating GT for some of the same carried over reasons completely ridiculous to certain degrees. (worse when they get superficial).

It will take a lot for you to convince me that FnF or the Fusion saga was better than GT in anyway.

And you will never find me trying to convince someone that FnF has any redeeming qualities. Oh well, any part of the Boo arc is far better to me than GT, even if I think the arc took a massive nose dive once fusion was introduced.

I think the Kid Buu arc is the worst part of the saga(next to the horrible Vegito fight). I find it hard to think GT is so outright bad even with that in comparison. There was never a point in GT where a character was just blaitently beat down for most of an episode with nothing at the end to show for it. Unlike Vegeta and Buu who were, and Vegeta didnt nor couldnt even get a Zenkai from it.

[KentalSSJ6]

Why are we reviving a 5 month old thread on a subject that already has at least a dozen of the same topic?

[Mystic Tien]

He didn't have much personality to him when you compare to older main villains in the series.

He is not too different from Cell, Frieza or Piccolo Daimao, all of which enjoyed to destroy and kill people. Even Vegeta himself was pretty generic before Namek saga, he just wasn't given any time to be fleshed out, he was the last villain in the end.

The reality is that not every single one of Toriyama's ideas is a stroke of brilliance as some fans are convinced and not every single one of Toei's ideas is inherently inferior to all that Toriyama did. Nothing is ever perfectly black & white and fitting a desired 'narration'

But that is exactly my point. But some people praise anything just because it is made by Toriyama, and bash most of things made by Toei, which I just don't like.

[Hellspawn28]

He didn't have much personality to him when you compare to older main villains in the series.

He is not too different from Cell, Freeza or Piccolo Daimao, all of which enjoyed to destroy and kill people. Even Vegeta himself was pretty generic before Namek saga, he just wasn't given any time to be fleshed out, he was the last villain in the end.

At least those villains where memorable, a better motivation and had better personality. Yi Xing Long never really had that since he was so dull and boring. The biggest issue wit the Shadow Dragons is that they where all poorly put together. Most of them died in one episode and they where hardly fresh out.

[Mystic Tien]

He didn't have much personality to him when you compare to older main villains in the series.

He is not too different from Cell, Freeza or Piccolo Daimao, all of which enjoyed to destroy and kill people. Even Vegeta himself was pretty generic before Namek saga, he just wasn't given any time to be fleshed out, he was the last villain in the end.

At least those villains where memorable, a better motivation and had better personality. Yi Xing Long never really had that since he was so dull and boring. The biggest issue wit the Shadow Dragons is that they where all poorly put together. Most of them died in one episode and they where hardly fresh out.

But Cell barely had any motivation. He was just programmed to become Perfect and he basically achieved his goal, after which he didn't know what to do anymore and just wanted to fight strong enemies. Cell in 1st form just absorbed everyone and 2 form of Cell just destroyed islands and cities for the sake of it.

[Hellspawn28]

Well his motivation on absorbing #17 and #18 was pretty clever in my opinion since he wanted to absorb those two in order to become perfect. You can say that Cell pretty much wanted to become a god when becoming perfect and didn't want anyone to stand in his way. If he won then he would travel across the Universe to fight other stronger opponents. He may be somewhat lacking compare to Freeza and the others, but at least he is memorable and him having different levels of personality in each form was pretty good in my opinion. Cell is still my favorite DBZ villain to date and I do think he is a better villain the most people give him credit for.

Yi Xing Long could have been a good villain since he was born to punish Earth for over using the Dragon Balls which is a great idea. However his personality is so lack luster and he was hardly developed for me to like him. Other people will likely disagree with me, but I do think that Yi Xing Long is a poor villain in the series. With Buu, I feel like that he had suspense and build up to his character.

[DBZAOTA482]

Plus it's been suggested Cell wanted perfection on his own accord. He wanted it cuz he lusted for power (might be the influence of the Saiyan/Freeza/Piccolo Daimao cells) and he disregarded Dr. Gero's ambitions for revenge.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

GT was well boring for the most part, Pan and her robot were annoying turning Goku into a kid again was the stupidest thing they could ever do and then Goku magically turning into an adult in SS4, just what? Vegeta cheating to get SS4, infact everything with Vegeta was a problem. Uub was just a waste of space and everyone just looked so old which is why I hope Super does not take place EoZ.

[Mystic Tien]

turning Goku into a kid again was the stupidest thing they could ever do

I guess, if Toriyama still remembers what he said about it, you won't like Dragon Ball Super at all

Vegeta cheating to get SS4, infact everything with Vegeta was a problem. Uub was just a waste of space and everyone just looked so old which is why I hope Super does not take place EoZ.

Vegeta never cheated to get SSJ4, the machine was used to compensate the absence of tail, if he didn't have enough strength, he wouldn't have transformed.

On the other hand Vegeta is implied to be cheating to be able to get SSJ God, and Goku while becoming SSJ God himsef even admitted that it was not the right thing to do and that he didn't like it.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

turning Goku into a kid again was the stupidest thing they could ever do

I guess, if Toriyama still remembers what he said about it, you won't like Dragon Ball Super at all

Vegeta cheating to get SS4, infact everything with Vegeta was a problem. Uub was just a waste of space and everyone just looked so old which is why I hope Super does not take place EoZ.

Vegeta never cheated to get SSJ4, the machine was used to compensate the absence of tail, if he didn't have enough strength, he wouldn't have transformed.

On the other hand Vegeta is implied to be cheating to be able to get SSJ God, and Goku while becoming SSJ God himsef even admitted that it was not the right thing to do and that he didn't like it.

What did Toriyama say about it?

And yeah I was hoping Vegeta would not get SSG but they handled it better in "F" then GT by doing it off screen.

[Mystic Tien]

What did Toriyama say about it?

With regards to the anime’s new series, Dragon Ball GT, how involved are you?
Toriyama
Just a little bit. I’ll check the stories that come up from Toei Animation, and give them a little bit of advice. Also, I’ve drawn just a few characters and illustrations. But it’s interesting! It feels like, “Ah, so they could do it this way”. I think everyone at Toei Animation really racked their brains. Good work. To think they’d make Goku little. With this story, I might even be able to continue the manga serialization again… though I have absolutely no intention of drawing it. (laughs)

Right here - http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... ong-times/

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Eek. Thanks for the link btw. Toriyama sure laughs a lot, not at all suprising though lol.

[Basaku]

I guess, if Toriyama still remembers what he said about it, you won't like Dragon Ball Super at all

I can take bets that 1 thing Toei ain't gonna allow is kid Goku again, even if Toriyama himself wanted. They know how "popular" the idea was. It ain't happening in DBS (1-episode self-referencing joke at most) and good riddance

[One_Instance]

I can take bets that 1 thing Toei ain't gonna allow is kid Goku again, even if Toriyama himself wanted.

Toriyama is the one who made that decision in the first place.

[MajinVegetaPD]

Uub and Pan made it so bad.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Uub and Pan made it so bad.

Specifically, the underuse of the former and the overuse of the latter.

[Cursed Lemon]

Aside from the fact that the animation and art design are unilaterally subpar when compared to DBZ's better efforts, DBGT just does not have any interesting fight scenes and is otherwise not very entertaining. There's also a distinct lack of the feeling of consequence; it's got a comical atmosphere that does not allow one to get a sense of gravity for the situation.

There's also no aspect of the "hero's journey" like there was in DB and DBZ. Goku & Co. are just playing galactic fetch.

[bleed0range]

I've been re-watching episodes of Dragon Ball GT in order to refresh my memory before I make any thoughts here and so I want to say a few things:

Just to get this out of the way, I never went into DBGT originally expecting it to be better or worse then DB/DBZ. I watched it all those years ago in crappy quality subtitled Japanese and I did not much care for it. So it's not a fact of me going in with negative feelings.

I re-watched a few episodes from each arc, the one's that interested me the most. But I think the thing that bothers me MOST about DBGT is the fact that Goku neither looks nor acts like the Goku we knew, really. The weird change of his skin color to an almost tan look and just some of the ways he carries himself strikes me as strange. I can't put my finger on it, but I caught myself often going "Goku wouldn't do/say that." Add to the fact that he is a little kid and it doesn't feel like the Goku we've grown with either. The goku who seems to have an adult maturity to him when he sacrifices himself for Gohan during his fight with Cell... seems to be replaced by an almost cartoon like quality to his personality. Where is the "father" that he grew to be.... where was that feeling that "everything will be okay because Goku is here." I know Goku was there all the time, but I never got that feeling because he was a little kid again.

Strange rules like, he can't do instant transmission anymore also bothered me. Why did he hardly go SSJ? So many little things bothered me.

The plot seems rushed when compared to DB/DBz. Instead of one really long story that is told a bit at a time to give you this feeling of a long journey it's narrowed down into a few episodes and it really destroys that feeling to me.

The planets they go to seem unimaginative. The enemies seem unimaginative. Nothing has the personality that Toriyama gave his characters. Look at Beerus and then look at any GT character... Toriyama still knows how to make characters interesting because he understands that their personality that defines them is the fun thing to play with in a story. Beerus' personality clashing with the others writes itself. GT is full of rehashed ideas and boring villains that do not possess such potential.

I could go on, but those are the major things that bother me about GT. I also don't really like the animation. It seems like it's "better" while at the same time being worse. I'm not sure how that's possible. Is it the colors used in the show like with Goku being more tan? I don't konw.

Also... Gohan doesn't look quite right throughout a large portion of the show. He doesn't look like Gohan for some reason.

And also the fight scenes are pretty unimaginative too! DB/DBZ have such defining moments in their fights that make them memorable. Not just the choreography but in general.

Oh, the list just goes on. It's okay for what it is, but it's definitely got a lot of flaws imo.

[NeoKING]

And yeah I was hoping Vegeta would not get SSG but they handled it better in "F" then GT by doing it off screen.

Handled it better? Please, if Vegeta got SSJ4 off-screen in GT you'd be just as displeased as you are now.

Love when people downplay GT for it's faults but big up these new movies for these same faults. Oh, wait, Toriyama was at the helm, so it was funny and captured the spirit of the original Dragon Ball and was just a fun ride. GT, though? Stupid cash-cow, stupid Toei. Bleh.

[ABED]

The planets they go to seem unimaginative. The enemies seem unimaginative. Nothing has the personality that Toriyama gave his characters. Look at Beerus and then look at any GT character... Toriyama still knows how to make characters interesting because he understands that their personality that defines them is the fun thing to play with in a story. Beerus' personality clashing with the others writes itself. GT is full of rehashed ideas and boring villains that do not possess such potential.

No, just no. This comes across to me as merely a contrived attempt at disliking the show. The planets are imaginative, and Baby's an interesting villain. I like Beerus, but Baby had layers to his character. Sure, they weren't as fully explored as they could have been, but he's a very interesting villain with a link to the heroes.

Care to explain what you mean by unimaginative, your comment is awfully vague.

Why do some care so much about Uub's lack of use? Did he really make that much of an impression in the little screen time he had at the end of Z that you were dying to see far more of him?