Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
Akyon wrote:Vegeta being forgiven in-universe for all the shitty things he did pre-Buu's final redemption.
What would you have them do to him ? put him in jail ?
I'd maybe not have trusted him to help save the world against Cell or the Androids. I'd at least have Piccolo or (far more unlikely given his personality) Goku try to keep an eye on him during that period since Vegeta changed his mind about whether he was good, bad or neutral more often than Bulma changed her hairstyle.
Let me put it another way; would you have trusted or forgiven someone who was responsible for your friend's deaths? I sure wouldn't.
Favourite User quote:
Vice wrote:"Look at all these characters getting some shine in the buildup for the tournament of power, maybe we'll get to see some other characters do some stuff instead of the same old shit."
1. Goku (Universe 7) has eliminated 6 competitor & Vegeta (Universe 7) has eliminated 6 competitors
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
Because people in the manga were as strong as Toriyama wanted to be. If he had wanted to make an Earthling with Kaio-Ken as strong or stronger than one of the Super Saiyans, he could have.
Saying it "would not work" is tantamount to saying that it violates the logic of the power levels of the series, when most of the stuff concerning said levels came out years after the manga was done, and therefore irrelevant.
If Toriyama had wanted Kaio-Ken to be that effective, he could have made it so.
Still doesn't explain why you brought up SSJ math. As if I care about that. I wasn't even comparing Kaioken to SSJ. I was comparing Kaioken humans to enemies stronger than SSJ, SSJ2, AND SSJ3. So that leaves Cell and Majin Boo. I also said I can see it working in movies.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
Because people in the manga were as strong as Toriyama wanted to be. If he had wanted to make an Earthling with Kaio-Ken as strong or stronger than one of the Super Saiyans, he could have.
Saying it "would not work" is tantamount to saying that it violates the logic of the power levels of the series, when most of the stuff concerning said levels came out years after the manga was done, and therefore irrelevant.
If Toriyama had wanted Kaio-Ken to be that effective, he could have made it so.
Still doesn't explain why you brought up SSJ math. As if I care about that. I wasn't even comparing Kaioken to SSJ. I was comparing Kaioken humans to enemies stronger than SSJ, SSJ2, AND SSJ3. So that leaves Cell and Majin Boo. I also said I can see it working in movies.
You seriously can't see how fanmade perception of power levels relates to the numbers given to us outside the series?
And yes, you directly compared Kaio-Ken to Super Saiyan by indicating that it wouldn't be effective against enemies on or above that level. If that's not what you intended to do, then you shouldn't have written it down. Maybe put some time into thinking about what you are going to post?
TobyS wrote:
Piccolo is thrown away to boost SK yet SK is then made to look pretty weak making Piccolos relavency sacrifice for nothing.
What in the world is "SK"?
..anyone? I'm completely lost here, and I'm not the only one.
<Adamant> http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 31#p933331 <-- anyone know? Is it shortform for some bizarre dub term or something?
<Adamant> "Super Kamiccolo" or some shit?
<@TripleRach> That's all I can think of, but it's not from the dub
<@TripleRach> Never saw "SK" before just then either
Satan wrote:Lortedrøm! Bøh slog min datter ihjel! Hvad bilder du dig ind, Bøh?! Nu kommer Super-Satan og rydder op!
I'm talking about all the modern stuff, the movies, Kai and almost certainly Super.
It's lost a bit of that badass feel to it now it's been made considerably more kid friendly. Which to me is the thing that I dislike most about modern Dragon Ball even if it's not really it's fault.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
Because people in the manga were as strong as Toriyama wanted to be. If he had wanted to make an Earthling with Kaio-Ken as strong or stronger than one of the Super Saiyans, he could have.
Saying it "would not work" is tantamount to saying that it violates the logic of the power levels of the series, when most of the stuff concerning said levels came out years after the manga was done, and therefore irrelevant.
If Toriyama had wanted Kaio-Ken to be that effective, he could have made it so.
Still doesn't explain why you brought up SSJ math. As if I care about that. I wasn't even comparing Kaioken to SSJ. I was comparing Kaioken humans to enemies stronger than SSJ, SSJ2, AND SSJ3. So that leaves Cell and Majin Boo. I also said I can see it working in movies.
You seriously can't see how fanmade perception of power levels relates to the numbers given to us outside the series?
And yes, you directly compared Kaio-Ken to Super Saiyan by indicating that it wouldn't be effective against enemies on or above that level. If that's not what you intended to do, then you shouldn't have written it down. Maybe put some time into thinking about what you are going to post?
TobyS wrote:
Piccolo is thrown away to boost SK yet SK is then made to look pretty weak making Piccolos relavency sacrifice for nothing.
What in the world is "SK"?
..anyone? I'm completely lost here, and I'm not the only one.
<Adamant> http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 31#p933331 <-- anyone know? Is it shortform for some bizarre dub term or something?
<Adamant> "Super Kamiccolo" or some shit?
<@TripleRach> That's all I can think of, but it's not from the dub
<@TripleRach> Never saw "SK" before just then either
my only guess is 'Supreme Kai'
Super Saiyan Blue is not a creative color.
DBZ Movie 3 told a stronger and more believable "Evil Goku" story in 60 minutes than Dragon Ball Super has in 20 episodes. And it did it with better visuals and score.
Akyon wrote:Vegeta being forgiven in-universe for all the shitty things he did pre-Buu's final redemption.
Super Saiyan 3 felt ridiculous to me since it came pretty much out of no-where
What would you have them do to him ? put him in jail ?
After Vegeta allowed Cell to become Perfect, I think Goku should have beat him into a paste if not outright kill him, but that's just me.
There's nothing that irreversibly lowers my opinion of the series. But there's plenty of things in hindsight I wish Toriyama had done better, Red Ribbon Saga definitely as a whole, not a bad saga overall, but has its low points, was the beginning of the 'Goku does everything' issue, and could have been far better if he planned it.
TobyS wrote:
What happened to Babidi/Dabra/Buu in Trunks and Cells timelines?
Daizenshuu 7 said that Buu was never released in Trunks timeline due to lack of energy to revive him back to life. The same is likely for Cell's timeline given how everyone in that timeline was dead too.
Nothing has really irreversibly lowered your opinion of the series, so far. Although, I was going through a bit of downtime after GT, from being burnt out on how underwhelming it was and then Dragon Ball Evolution compounded it and nearly killed my spark in the franchise. Thank God, I found about Kai as quickly as I did after DBE.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
The Ultimate shafting. Made me believe what a waste of time Gohan was. So much build up that went out with a whimper. Then all his traits are given to the likes of Oob, Goku, and Vegeta. Battle of Gods made it worse with Beerus' end statements.
The status quo bothers me to no end. If you ain't Goku and Vegeta, you're worthless. In the manga this changed around. Sometimes Goku was worthless. Sometimes Piccolo was the only being to count on. Sometimes Vegeta was dominant. Now we're right back to GT, where only Goku and Vegeta can do anything. I don't see this changing in Super.
The recolour forms. Toriyama is so good with new character designs...but these....ugh. I've warmed up to them a bit, but so much better could have been done.
The Kai part 2 crap. So much lack of care in the green tint, score, etc. I fear for Super if that's the treatment Kai got.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Vegeta's promised day is given to Goku once again, and to add insult to injury, he would've died if it wasn't for Goku's plot shield.
No point in bring the person who ruined his childhood back for the x time for him to gets his final shine, no one wants Friza back anymore, and Vegeta's power is on the same scale as Goku's so it make the Beerus beat down scene irrelevant, thanks AT for shittin' on Vegeta fans for the nth time.
Cell saga for me I hated the androids and felt Cell was a poor Freeza, It was also boring, and not even funny, and it made Vegeta a whiner. The animation and artwork were also below average to me for much of it. But my biggest thing was that's when I realised the DBZ would never again rise to the level of the previous Siayan/namek/Freeza saga's levels of Fun.
Vegeta's promised day is given to Goku once again, and to add insult to injury, he would've died if it wasn't for Goku's plot shield.
No point in bring the person who ruined his childhood back for the x time for him to gets his final shine, no one wants Friza back anymore, and Vegeta's power is on the same scale as Goku's so it make the Beerus beat down scene irrelevant, thanks AT for shittin' on Vegeta fans for the nth time.
I still say someone got in Toriyama's ear at Toei, and said it's to soon to make Vegeta the hero, or he was toying with us the whole time, or maybe just wanted to keep us guessing as the movie played out.
dbzfan7 wrote:
The Kai part 2 crap. So much lack of care in the green tint, score, etc. I fear for Super if that's the treatment Kai got.
Super is an actual new series being made for Japan. Boo Kai was a cheap repackaging of Z done for foreign licensees because they requested one (and it also required Toei to hire many of Japan's most expensive VAs for it). They're not really comparable.
Satan wrote:Lortedrøm! Bøh slog min datter ihjel! Hvad bilder du dig ind, Bøh?! Nu kommer Super-Satan og rydder op!
I think the Buu saga and most of DBZ Movies 1-13 really lowered my opinion on the series. I do feel like GT was always mediocre even when I first saw it back in 2002. I knew deep down that I was let down as a 11 year old and that the show did suck. Watching it on Toonami didn't help neither.
dbzfan7 wrote:
The Kai part 2 crap. So much lack of care in the green tint, score, etc. I fear for Super if that's the treatment Kai got.
Super is an actual new series being made for Japan. Boo Kai was a cheap repackaging of Z done for foreign licensees because they requested one (and it also required Toei to hire many of Japan's most expensive VAs for it). They're not really comparable.
New animation could be crap. Could go the Sailor Moon Crystal route. I fear toei may be too cheap.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
