What things irreversibly lowered your opinion of the series?

[dbzfan7]

See, GT had the supporting cast fighting a bunch of fodder before an old villain came back inexplicably powerful and chumped them all until Godku showed up. Then Godku misjudged his enemy and got beaten until a third-tier cast member invoked a familial connection to get the villain to drop his guard and allow Goku to win with a last-ditch attack.

This is dumb and bad. Stupid Toei.

Now, in TORIYAMA's Dragonball, we have the supporting cast fighting a bunch of fodder before an old villain came back inexplicably powerful and chumped them all until Godku showed up. Then Godku misjudged his enemy and got beaten until a literal deus ex machina happened that let Goku win effortlessly. This is good and proper.

The only significant character that Freeza defeats in ROF when he came back was Gohan. In GT, every major Z-Fighter under the sun, Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Majuub and Vegeta took on Super #17 got effortlessly stomped.

Gohan was several times stronger than everyone else. Freeza one-shotting him in his 1st form is the equivalent of Super 17 making sport of everyone at once. = P

Well in the end they all can't do shit anyways, so they're chumped in the sense they're useless and they know it.

[Lord Beerus]

See, GT had the supporting cast fighting a bunch of fodder before an old villain came back inexplicably powerful and chumped them all until Godku showed up. Then Godku misjudged his enemy and got beaten until a third-tier cast member invoked a familial connection to get the villain to drop his guard and allow Goku to win with a last-ditch attack.

This is dumb and bad. Stupid Toei.

Now, in TORIYAMA's Dragonball, we have the supporting cast fighting a bunch of fodder before an old villain came back inexplicably powerful and chumped them all until Godku showed up. Then Godku misjudged his enemy and got beaten until a literal deus ex machina happened that let Goku win effortlessly. This is good and proper.

The only significant character that Freeza defeats in ROF when he came back was Gohan. In GT, every major Z-Fighter under the sun, Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Majuub and Vegeta took on Super #17 got effortlessly stomped.

Gohan was several times stronger than everyone else. Freeza one-shotting him in his 1st form is the equivalent of Super 17 making sport of everyone at once. = P

It... really isn't. Since BOG, Gohan has fallen down the pecking order, unfortunately.

[dbzfan7]

Gohan was several times stronger than everyone else. Freeza one-shotting him in his 1st form is the equivalent of Super 17 making sport of everyone at once. = P

It... really isn't. Since BOG, Gohan has fallen down the pecking order, unfortunately.

They are. Kinda like how Freeza was beating the shit out of Vegeta, and offered the others to help him if they wanted. Gohan, Piccolo, and Krillin are chumped cause they know they're powerless and can't help anyways. Here they're powerless and can't help anyways, so they're chumped. You don't have to be physically beaten to be chumped. Simply being outclassed and standing around helpless is enough to be that.

[Zephyr]

The franchise itself in general? Can't say anything has. The more I learn about and experience the story, the more I seem to appreciate it for what it is. Retcons and continuity hiccups don't really do anything negative for me, since I love solving the puzzles that they create. I don't really have a favorite character, so character usage doesn't really do anything negative for me.

Though I suppose the anime version of the story has a significantly irreversible lower opinion after learning of all of the horribly executed padding and the constantly fluctuating animation quality.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I dunno, I'm just losing patience with the lazy writing, especially in FnF. The 3-minute reset-fix thing is probably the worst ending ever. Its like Goku HAS to be the winner now. DBZ content these days is just too predictable for me to expect anything satisfyingly interesting.

[Sanyo96]

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, I don't like the blue hair. Would have been better if they stuck to red, like shown when Goku transformed after defending earth from Beerus.

[Vice]

Gohan's continuing decline. That character saddens me. Why give him the strength to defeat Buu and then nix it with bringing Goku back? What sucks about his defeat against Buu is that now everyone says he can't turn Super Saiyan anymore even though everything official says he can, leading me to become angry since the only reason Toriyama did not have him transform against Buu is because then the fight would have ended along with the series, which probably would have been for the best.

You do realize that the Mystic form is a transformation stacked on top of the Super Saiyan forms right? That there is no possible Super Saiyan Mystic whatever, there's Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2 then Mystic.

And Gohan's treatment as a character is still currently better than anyone not named Goku, Vegeta, Bills or Whis.

[Captain Sauza]

Everyone being a SSJ. That second DBZ in a Nutshell video made fun of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azC-hFG47KE

[Zephyr]

See, GT had the supporting cast fighting a bunch of fodder before an old villain came back inexplicably powerful and chumped them all until Godku showed up. Then Godku misjudged his enemy and got beaten until a third-tier cast member invoked a familial connection to get the villain to drop his guard and allow Goku to win with a last-ditch attack.

This is dumb and bad. Stupid Toei.

Now, in TORIYAMA's Dragonball, we have the supporting cast fighting a bunch of fodder before an old villain came back inexplicably powerful and chumped them all until Godku showed up. Then Godku misjudged his enemy and got beaten until a literal deus ex machina happened that let Goku win effortlessly. This is good and proper.

Re: Bolded parts: If fans don't like X in one instance, but are fine with it in another instance, then perhaps it isn't X that the fans did not like in the first instance, but rather, something else...? Nah, that couldn't be it.

Also, don't the Namekian Dragon Balls being a thing preclude Whis' ability from being a "literal" deus ex machina?

[Metalwario64]

You do realize that the Mystic form is a transformation stacked on top of the Super Saiyan forms right? That there is no possible Super Saiyan Mystic whatever, there's Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2 then Mystic.

And Gohan's treatment as a character is still currently better than anyone not named Goku, Vegeta, Bills or Whis.

"Mystic" isn't a form.

When Gohan had his potential unlocked by the Elder Kaioshin, he was told to turn Super Saiyan, and in the series, from that point, he was stuck like that, even at the time skip at the end of Z.

[Doctor.]

You do realize that the Mystic form is a transformation stacked on top of the Super Saiyan forms right? That there is no possible Super Saiyan Mystic whatever, there's Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2 then Mystic.

And Gohan's treatment as a character is still currently better than anyone not named Goku, Vegeta, Bills or Whis.

"Mystic" isn't a form.

When Gohan had his potential unlocked by the Elder Kaioshin, he was told to turn Super Saiyan, and in the series, from that point, he was stuck like that, even at the time skip at the end of Z.

He turns Super Saiyan in Battle of Gods, he uses ultimate has a form in Battle of Gods and when Goku asks to the Elder Kaioshin if he and Gohan should turn Super Saiyan for fusion, the Elder Kaioshin doesn't deny that Gohan can go Super Saiyan.

[TheGmGoken]

You do realize that the Mystic form is a transformation stacked on top of the Super Saiyan forms right? That there is no possible Super Saiyan Mystic whatever, there's Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2 then Mystic.

And Gohan's treatment as a character is still currently better than anyone not named Goku, Vegeta, Bills or Whis.

"Mystic" isn't a form.

When Gohan had his potential unlocked by the Elder Kaioshin, he was told to turn Super Saiyan, and in the series, from that point, he was stuck like that, even at the time skip at the end of Z.

He turns Super Saiyan in Battle of Gods, he uses ultimate has a form in Battle of Gods and when Goku asks to the Elder Kaioshin if he and Gohan should turn Super Saiyan for fusion, the Elder Kaioshin doesn't deny that Gohan can go Super Saiyan.

If Gohan can turn SSJ. Why...didn't he use SSJ or SSJ 2 against Gotenks Boo when he was getting the shit beaten outta him.

[Doctor.]

I don't know why this is a question for so many people. It's not like ultimate is his base form, it's a form that's above Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2, kinda of like Super Saiyan 3, but much more powerful. It's not like he can stack all the transformations together for a huge boost, Battle of Gods makes that pretty obvious: that he can still transform, but that transformation doesn't boost his power at all compared to his ultimate state.

[TheGmGoken]

Ssj Gohan was a mistake. Pretty sure Toei was too lazy to fix or reanimate the power up scene for SS God. So Ssj Gohan stayed.

[Doctor.]

That's the out-of-universe answer.

[TheGmGoken]

That's the out-of-universe answer.

This isn't a in universe discussion. It's in general franchise.

So I give you a GF answer

[Kamiccolo9]

You do realize that the Mystic form is a transformation stacked on top of the Super Saiyan forms right? That there is no possible Super Saiyan Mystic whatever, there's Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2 then Mystic.

And Gohan's treatment as a character is still currently better than anyone not named Goku, Vegeta, Bills or Whis.

"Mystic" isn't a form.

When Gohan had his potential unlocked by the Elder Kaioshin, he was told to turn Super Saiyan, and in the series, from that point, he was stuck like that, even at the time skip at the end of Z.

When the old Kaioshin tells him to transform, he says "do that Super Saiyan thing and throw in a Kiai." So, after the ritual, Super Saiyan + Kiai results in going "mystic." Super Saiyan without the Kiai results in just Super Saiyan.

[dbgtFO]

You do realize that the Mystic form is a transformation stacked on top of the Super Saiyan forms right? That there is no possible Super Saiyan Mystic whatever, there's Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2 then Mystic.

And Gohan's treatment as a character is still currently better than anyone not named Goku, Vegeta, Bills or Whis.

"Mystic" isn't a form.

When Gohan had his potential unlocked by the Elder Kaioshin, he was told to turn Super Saiyan, and in the series, from that point, he was stuck like that, even at the time skip at the end of Z.

When the old Kaioshin tells him to transform, he says "do that Super Saiyan thing and throw in a Kiai." So, after the ritual, Super Saiyan + Kiai results in going "mystic." Super Saiyan without the Kiai results in just Super Saiyan.

I'd prefer it, if Toriyama/Toei just admitted they goofed on that one.
They are ruining my head-canon otherwise
But I don't have high hopes for it.

Anyway, as answer to the topic: probably the shafting of anyone not named Goku, Vegeta Whis and Beerus. Super better not be the continuation of that.
Also Freeza getting to be the strongest villain in Z, somehow making the dismissal of his importance to the story quite ironic.
Oddly enough, they go to such great lengths to finally bring him back and make him a big threat once again, but then Goku and Vegeta handle him pretty well and put him in his place. I'd have expected him to do more, but briefly having won the war was all he got.
I'm actually very satisfied by that.

[Rocketman]

Also, don't the Namekian Dragon Balls being a thing preclude Whis' ability from being a "literal" deus ex machina?

No, a god intervening to fix the situation that mortals have gotten themselves into is the original meaning of deus ex machina.

You do realize that the Mystic form is a transformation

Mystic isn't a transformation. It's all of his hidden power brought to the surface, no more of a transformation than the Great Elder's unlock.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'd prefer it, if Toriyama/Toei just admitted they goofed on that one.
They are ruining my head-canon otherwise
But I don't have high hopes for it.

Nothing in the manga says that achieving his "mystic" state locked Gohan out of Super Saiyan. That's just a fan theory that got so popular that when BoG contradicted it, everyone started screaming "plothole!" It's nothing more than what you said, it ruins some people's head-canons.