Raditz tail conundrum.

[SaiyaJedi]

#16 of the DBZ manga is out? I just bought #15, thinking it was the newest one. Cool--now I'll have another one to read!

Err... no... he meant volume 16 of DragonBall, although most of the stuff he's talking about is in DB volume 17, a.k.a. DBZ volume 1. Unfortunately, you're going to have to wait for DB volume 16 (and the end of the 23rd Budoukai) for a few more months...

[PsyLiam]

This all reminds me of that time Toriyama actually got the question once from a child asking why Trunks and Goten didn't have tails. He answered that "it would seem tails are a recessive trait". You have to give him points for thinking an answer up that quickly.

Even if it's quite clearly bollocks. If tails were a "recessive trait", then none of the children would have had one. Unless Chi Chi really was a Saiyan in disguise.

[Beelz]

A friend of mine actually came up with a few 'scientific' theories about why, from a gland in the tail that prevents the transformation, to the SSJ state being the Saiya-jin response to intesne stress survival instinct after they've lost their tail.

Though, most likely, Toriyama-sama just didn't want to deal with the uber power of a Golden Oozaru. Think about it, Goku was at 15,000,000 when he fought Freeza. That would mean, as a Golden Oozaru, he'd have had a power of 150,000,000. That would have made an awfully one-sided fight, no?

Hmm, what about the Legendary Super Saiyan Vegeta talks about before Goku actually transforms. I'm not sure if the picture of the massive beast is anime only but I believe he had a tail. Also in GT isn't Chibi Goku able to transform into his various forms of Super Saiyan after getting his tail pulled back out.

Was Goku seriously up to 15,000,000 when he fought Freeza? I mean I realize that he was up to at least 3,000,000 but I figured that was the limit of his power. Let us not forget how evenly matched the two were when Goku allowed Freeza to power up to 100% and I doubt Freeza was anywere near 15,000,000. I never really followed the power levels much after the saiyan saga anyway. I mean seriously the levels jump so quickly it just makes no sense after a while.

On the subject of Goten's tail, did Chichi actually know about the Oozaru transformation . The last time Oozaru is performed is when Vegeta transforms against Goku. Before that the last time was at the 21st Budokai (not counting Gohans transformations in the wildnerness, but even those CHichi had no idea about.) and Chichi was nowhere near the arena. It would seem she had no need to cut the tail off because she had no idea about the possibility of a giant ape rampaging through the country side. Hell she and Goku left Gohan's tail on when they had him, the only thing I can think of is that maybe Gohan pulled it off without telling Chichi. I guess that would make sense, who knows.

[Jerseymilk]

Was Goku seriously up to 15,000,000 when he fought Freeza? I mean I realize that he was up to at least 3,000,000 but I figured that was the limit of his power. Let us not forget how evenly matched the two were when Goku allowed Freeza to power up to 100% and I doubt Freeza was anywere near 15,000,000. I never really followed the power levels much after the saiyan saga anyway. I mean seriously the levels jump so quickly it just makes no sense after a while.

That's the problem with all the business concerning the scouters and such. The first part of the series concentrated so much on power levels and then by the time of the androids, the focus just stops. I think most likely, the levels were getting so ridiculous that Toriyama just gave up on it.

[Xyex]

A friend of mine actually came up with a few 'scientific' theories about why, from a gland in the tail that prevents the transformation, to the SSJ state being the Saiya-jin response to intesne stress survival instinct after they've lost their tail.

Though, most likely, Toriyama-sama just didn't want to deal with the uber power of a Golden Oozaru. Think about it, Goku was at 15,000,000 when he fought Freeza. That would mean, as a Golden Oozaru, he'd have had a power of 150,000,000. That would have made an awfully one-sided fight, no?

Hmm, what about the Legendary Super Saiyan Vegeta talks about before Goku actually transforms. I'm not sure if the picture of the massive beast is anime only but I believe he had a tail. Also in GT isn't Chibi Goku able to transform into his various forms of Super Saiyan after getting his tail pulled back out.

Was Goku seriously up to 15,000,000 when he fought Freeza? I mean I realize that he was up to at least 3,000,000 but I figured that was the limit of his power. Let us not forget how evenly matched the two were when Goku allowed Freeza to power up to 100% and I doubt Freeza was anywere near 15,000,000. I never really followed the power levels much after the saiyan saga anyway. I mean seriously the levels jump so quickly it just makes no sense after a while.

Frist, about the giant ape in Vegeta's musings of the Super Saiya-jin. IIRC he thought something along the lines of 'he could only maintain his power in the transformed state' or some such. To Vegeta, the Oozaru was the only transformed state a Saiya-jin had and therefore what he would have pictured.

As for the PL's, Goku was at 300,000 at the start of the fight against Frieza. The Kaio Ken x20 gave him a power of 6,000,000. I believe Frieza was at about 8,000,000 then. I do know that as a Super Saiya-jin Goku's pwer jumped up to 15,000,000 and that Frieza's full power was 12,500,000.

As for the mater of Chibi 'GT' Goku going SSJ with a tail. First off, he already had the power to go SSJ before the tail was returned (quite unnaturally I might add, what with the Dragon making him a kid again). That's about the only thing I can come up with but the best explanation is two simple letters. GT.

Even if it's quite clearly bollocks. If tails were a "recessive trait", then none of the children would have had one. Unless Chi Chi really was a Saiyan in disguise.

Just because it is recessive doesn't mean it wont show through sometimes. Certain eye colors are recessive but they do, rarely, show through over dominant ones.

[PsyLiam]

Just because it is recessive doesn't mean it wont show through sometimes. Certain eye colors are recessive but they do, rarely, show through over dominant ones.

Yes, because the child ends up with two recesive genes.

Science bit:

Your genes come in pairs. One from your dad, one from your mum. For traits such as this, you will have recessive and dominant genes. For the recessive trait to be visible, then both genes must be recessive. If you have one recessive and one dominant, then while you will have the genotype of the recessive trait, you will not have the phenotype (visible) trait.

Take tongue rolling. T is dominant, and t is recessive. (I can't actually remember if it's a dominant or recessive trait or not, but for this example we'll assume that it's dominant.)

TT = tongue roller
Tt = tongue roller
tT = tongue roller
tt = non-tongue roller

If the parents are both Tt, then...(one parent's genes from sperm/egg along top, one on the side)

T t
T TT Tt
t tT tt

On average, a child will have a one in 4 chance of not being able to roll their tongues.

How does this relate to Gohan and Goten? Well, if we assume that tails are a recessive trait (T= no tail, t = tail), then that means that all Saiyans seen with tails have to be tt. This means that

1/ There will be saiyans without tails, and
2/ The number of saiyans with tails will be in the minority.

Example, using Vegeta or Goku (who has to be tt) with a random Saiyan.


t t
t tt tt
t tt tt

t t
t tt tt
T Tt Tt

t t
T Tt Tt
T TT TT

This shows that if they marry another Saiyan with a tail, then they are almost certainly going to have a child with one. If they marry a Saiyan without a tail, then they will either have a 50% chance, or no chance, depending on the genes of the mother. (It's not absolutly certain either way, since mutations do occur in the gene pool. But it's very likely).

Now, Chi Chi is a human. You ever seen a human with a tail? No. That means that all humans have to be TT. If they were Tt, then some would be born with tails. And none are. So they can't be. Got it?

So...

t t (Goku)
T Tt Tt
T Tt Tt
(Chi
Chi)

All the children are Tt. This phenotype is "no tail". Therefore, none of their children should have a tail.

Now, it's possible that a mutation could occur, changing one of the Ts to a t. It's unlikely, but possible. If you want to accept Toriyama's "tails are a recessive trait" answer, then the only explanation for Gohan's tail is that he's a mutation, and somehow has a tt chromosome. That also means that Trunks and Goten wouldn't be born with them.

But...does Bulma say that she got rid of Trunks' tail? If so, then that goes against the "mutation" idea, since it's extremely unlikely that both of the kids would have them. Coupled with the fact that EVERY SINGLE SAIYAN we ever see has a tail, and it's most likely that the tail is a dominant trait, if it's a genetic trait at all.

So...bollocks.

[Jerseymilk]

Heh, I feel like I'm back in grade 9 science class. And Liam you're right about tongue-rolling being a dominant trait. Most people can do it.

[PsyLiam]

Which actually means that Bubbles and Blossom are the special ones, and not Buttercup. Oh, the irony...

[Jerseymilk]

Buttercup's always been the misunderstood one.

[Xyex]

But who says Saiya-jin DNA is an exact match to ours? They are an alien race.

But, ignoring that fact, um... hello, Super Saiya-jin is something of a mutation, correct? Could not the Super Saiya-jin transformation alter the tail gene there-by making all children of Super Saiya-jin's tailess?

[PsyLiam]

Saiyans can mate with humans without any trouble at all. Their DNA would have to be almost identical to ours for that to be possible (remember that chimpanzees share 95% of our DNA, and we're still two distinct species that can't produce offspring together.)

I'm not sure how Super Saiyan is a mutation. They don't tend to happen after a person is born. (Unless cancer is a mutation. I'm not sure.) And I can't think of any real word instance of something that turns a dominant gene into a recessive one.

[Xyex]

Saiyans can mate with humans without any trouble at all. Their DNA would have to be almost identical to ours for that to be possible (remember that chimpanzees share 95% of our DNA, and we're still two distinct species that can't produce offspring together.)

I'm not sure how Super Saiyan is a mutation. They don't tend to happen after a person is born. (Unless cancer is a mutation. I'm not sure.) And I can't think of any real word instance of something that turns a dominant gene into a recessive one.

IIRC Cancer is a mutation. And I don't think I know of any real world instance of someone going Super Saiya-jin either...

Besides, the best description for the Super Saiya-jin transformations is a sudden and 'somewhat' spontaneous evolution/mutation of a normal Saiya-jin induced by circumstance. The closest real world example to such a thing I can think of is this type of frog that, when members of the opposite sex are hard to find, can change its own gender.

As for the DNA compatiablity thing, again, it's alien DNA. That means it dosen't necasarily (I know I spelled that wrong) have to follow our presumed rules. The DNA could be highly adaptive to match whatever it's given to work with, or to match what it's given to fit it. Either way would still work.

[Jerseymilk]

Saiyans can mate with humans without any trouble at all. Their DNA would have to be almost identical to ours for that to be possible (remember that chimpanzees share 95% of our DNA, and we're still two distinct species that can't produce offspring together.)

It's closer than that even Liam. It's 98% of our DNA that we share with chimpanzees. Of course, that just makes the argument stronger anyway.

[Zackarotto]

(remember that chimpanzees share 95% of our DNA, and we're still two distinct species that can't produce offspring together.)

I'm sure you've personally tried.

Hey, why the hell am I always trying to insult you these days, PsyLiam? Did I develop some grudge against you, or what?

[PsyLiam]

I don't believe that the frog that can change its gender actually changes it's DNA. It's possible to have women who are XY, due to an abundance of œstrogen while the fœtus is developing.

There are no real world examples of someone's DNA actually changing, which is what would be required for the "tails are a recessive trait" thing to make sense. I'd rather avoid "They are aliens, anthing is possible", because that renders all arguments pointless.

Hey, why the hell am I always trying to insult you these days, PsyLiam? Did I develop some grudge against you, or what?

It doesn't matter. No-one called Zack can ever hope to win any argument. Ever. Unless it's against someone called Todd.

[James R. Cadwell]

But who says Saiya-jin DNA is an exact match to ours? They are an alien race.

Saiya-jin and humans are technically members of the same species, since they're capable of producing viable offspring with one another.

Besides, the best description for the Super Saiya-jin transformations is a sudden and 'somewhat' spontaneous evolution/mutation of a normal Saiya-jin induced by circumstance. The closest real world example to such a thing I can think of is this type of frog that, when members of the opposite sex are hard to find, can change its own gender.

I don't know why people try to find a biological explanation for Super Saiya-jin. The trigger for the transformation is entirely psychological, so I always assumed that Saiya-jin simply surpassed their normal limits and released a tremendous amount of hidden "ki" when they became "Super". I would consider that a completely metaphysical process that doesn't really involve Saiya-jin biology to any major extent. The physical changes aren't necessarily a function of biology, either -- they could easily be explained by "ki".

There are no real world examples of someone's DNA actually changing, which is what would be required for the "tails are a recessive trait" thing to make sense. I'd rather avoid "They are aliens, anthing is possible", because that renders all arguments pointless.

From what I understand, dominant/recessive traits are a reference to phenotype, not actual genetic expression. So I suppose you could come up with a logically-contorted theory to explain how a gene which Toriyama labeled as "recessive" could actually be phenotypically expressed. That would only work for Trunks, though, since Goten has a brother who did have a tail.

BTW, notice that traits which are normally dominant in humans (darker hair, darker eyes) were not expressed in Trunks and Bra's physical appearance. That always struck me as odd.

[Zackarotto]

I'm really sorry to interrupt your intelligent conversation (which I am following)...

Hey, why the hell am I always trying to insult you these days, PsyLiam? Did I develop some grudge against you, or what?

It doesn't matter. No-one called Zack can ever hope to win any argument. Ever. Unless it's against someone called Todd.

I'm not exactly sure what that's a reference to. I had some ideas, but... naw. Maybe that's why I'd never win an argument. Either way, I'm totally serious about that. I was even meaning offense to you when I added that Strong Bad quote to my signature... Ehehe. Well, no hard feelings, right?

[Jerseymilk]

I think Liam just means that he doesn't think much of your name Zacko. And why are you insulting him all of the time anyway? Last visit to Liverpool not go well?

I also think it's odd that Trunks and Bra have light hair and eyes. As far as I know about genes and such, brown eyes are more dominant than blue and I think the same goes with darker hair. Plus just looking at the consistency of a Saiyajin's hair, it would definitely appear to be a more dominant trait than the light and fine-looking hair that both of the children ended up with.

[B-kun]

I think Liam just means that he doesn't think much of your name Zacko. And why are you insulting him all of the time anyway? Last visit to Liverpool not go well?

I also think it's odd that Trunks and Bra have light hair and eyes. As far as I know about genes and such, brown eyes are more dominant than blue and I think the same goes with darker hair. Plus just looking at the consistency of a Saiyajin's hair, it would definitely appear to be a more dominant trait than the light and fine-looking hair that both of the children ended up with.

Well, Trunks's hair is darker in Dragon Ball GT, but Bra looks frighteningly like Bulma, so.. yeah. No point made.

Unless the DB girls are freaks who must be stopped now.

[Jerseymilk]

Um, I think you're forgetting about Pan.