What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy?

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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by Kid Buu » Fri May 29, 2015 6:15 pm

The main character Goku is a strong, pure, good person, but he’s also a battle-obsessed, hopeless case of a human being, who has some issues as a father. Yet for some reason, he possesses a mysterious, lighthearted charm that keeps his circle of friends growing and growing.
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Goku isn’t interested in child-rearing, probably. He’s completely unqualified to be a father. (laughs) He doesn’t even have a job. Goku wants nothing other than to get stronger, and it feels like he doesn’t have any other instincts. So he shows absolutely no interest in things he’s not interested in. I’d bet he wouldn’t have had any interest in marriage, either.
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Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by ABED » Fri May 29, 2015 6:21 pm

You should also italicize "some" as in Goku has SOME issues as a father.

Whether Goku has interest in it is another issue, he did a good job with Gohan.
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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by Kid Buu » Fri May 29, 2015 6:24 pm

I only put in italics what SaiyaJedi put in italics in the link provided.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by rereboy » Fri May 29, 2015 6:24 pm

Demon of Light wrote:The first thing he's doing in the Buu Saga is coming out of training with Trunks - he's involving him in what's arguably the most important thing in his life (that he doesn't know that Trunks is SSJ yet is another thing altogether).
It's not another thing altogether at all. First, Vegeta wasn't training with Trunks, Trunks just sneaked into his training, and second, the fact that he is so unfamiliar with his son's abilities, demonstrates that them training together is very uncommon, if it happens at all.

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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by ABED » Fri May 29, 2015 6:26 pm

^That and lest we forget, until giving his life in an attempt to kill Buu, he had never hugged his son.
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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by fadeddreams5 » Fri May 29, 2015 6:32 pm

So far I've based on my opinions on what I've visibly seen (or not seen) in the series. But it seems Toriyama himself has confirmed the obvious in the past. :wink:

Goku is a hopeless case of a human being. He means well, but he has no concept of the saying "friendship is a two-way street" or fatherhood. He doesn't get any of this, or cares because they have nothing to do with training. Goku grew up similarly to a wild animal, didn't even know what a girl was until the age of 12 (?), and lives his life by following his instincts, so naturally, he's oblivious over how to be a good parent or friend. He's naive, and will perpetually be that way because of his own physical gifts, and because Chi Chi is actually a good mother.

It took Vegeta being an arrogant, egotistical shithead and the death of the future version of his son to reform. But he learned from his mistakes, even if he began to loathe himself for growing to love his family. This went against his upbringing, but unlike Goku, he assimilated better...ironically.
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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by ABED » Fri May 29, 2015 7:08 pm

He gave his life not because of his instincts, he did it because he was protecting the people and world that he cared about. If he truly cared about his "instincts" he would've joined his brother.

Vegeta didn't assimiliate better. He murdered those people in the stadium, and I doubt he was ever affectionate towards Bulma, and he only hugged Trunks ONCE in 8 years. You've written nothing to show Vegeta is a good father beyond draw a conclusion off of an 8 year old kid. Kids generally look up to their fathers because their view of the world is still forming and don't know better even if their fathers are terrible.

Goku may not win father of the year, but he's encouraging of his child, he protects him, he teaches him, and he loves him.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by dbzfan7 » Fri May 29, 2015 7:15 pm

Kid Buu wrote:
The main character Goku is a strong, pure, good person, but he’s also a battle-obsessed, hopeless case of a human being, who has some issues as a father. Yet for some reason, he possesses a mysterious, lighthearted charm that keeps his circle of friends growing and growing.
Source
Goku isn’t interested in child-rearing, probably. He’s completely unqualified to be a father. (laughs) He doesn’t even have a job. Goku wants nothing other than to get stronger, and it feels like he doesn’t have any other instincts. So he shows absolutely no interest in things he’s not interested in. I’d bet he wouldn’t have had any interest in marriage, either.
Source
Pretty much all I need to hear and convince me. Though I ain't surprised in the least.
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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by fadeddreams5 » Fri May 29, 2015 7:54 pm

ABED wrote:He gave his life not because of his instincts, he did it because he was protecting the people and world that he cared about. If he truly cared about his "instincts" he would've joined his brother.

Vegeta didn't assimiliate better. He murdered those people in the stadium, and I doubt he was ever affectionate towards Bulma, and he only hugged Trunks ONCE in 8 years. You've written nothing to show Vegeta is a good father beyond draw a conclusion off of an 8 year old kid. Kids generally look up to their fathers because their view of the world is still forming and don't know better even if their fathers are terrible.

Goku may not win father of the year, but he's encouraging of his child, he protects him, he teaches him, and he loves him.
I mean he doesn't care about learning the concepts of friendship or fatherhood, or is even aware of it. He cares for them in his own way. People accept him because "it's just Goku being Goku." I meant instincts of a reclusive wild animal, basically. He grew up in the jungle. He was basically Tarzan, only with a grandpa. Hitting his head sort of erased his instinctive aggression, though his lust for battle remained.

As for Vegeta, he was under dark magic when he blew those people up. He's strong enough to fight through it and gain enough senses to accomplish his goal/obsession, but at that point, his heart was tainted with too much darkness and anger for him to care. The very reason he let himself be controlled was because he felt his heart had grown weak from the affections he feels for his family. That action alone reveals how much he's changed, which is something he detested because he felt he was betraying himself and his people. Later on, he only fuses with Goku after the latter mentions Bulma. When Beerus slaps Bulma, his rage is so great he ascends to a level he never could in the past (as bullshit as it is). He's a very selective person, and not the sort of guy who would care if someone was killed in front of him. But his family means the world to him. I'd argue even more than training. It's Goku that holds him back from fully integrating into a human lifestyle.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super

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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by pacz360 » Fri May 29, 2015 8:03 pm

Pretty much anyone says goku is bad father i mean yeah he not the greatest one but sure as hell isn't as bad people mad him out to be :problem:

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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by fadeddreams5 » Fri May 29, 2015 8:08 pm

King Cold and King Vegeta are is a better father than Goku.

Actually, I finally realized who else is a worse father: Bardock. I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super

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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by Gaffer Tape » Fri May 29, 2015 8:36 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:I mean he doesn't care about learning the concepts of friendship or fatherhood, or is even aware of it. He cares for them in his own way. People accept him because "it's just Goku being Goku." I meant instincts of a reclusive wild animal, basically. He grew up in the jungle. He was basically Tarzan, only with a grandpa. Hitting his head sort of erased his instinctive aggression, though his lust for battle remained.
I get the feeling you really aren't too familiar with the "pre-Z" portion of the story. You weren't even sure how old he was when he first met a girl. But the fact of the matter is, Toriyama really began writing Goku differently starting around the Cell arc, really playing up all this "Saiyan instinct" bull that he almost never showed signs of prior to. So if you are less than familiar with the earlier portions, I suppose it can be understood, but for the majority of Dragon Ball, he very much knew the concept of friendship. He went out of his way to be selfless. In the first arc that was what made him a foil for Blooma. She was selfish. He was more than willing to take this turtle he'd never met to the sea. He decided to gather the rest of the Dragon Balls just to wish his friend's dad back to life. He was always thrilled to see the gang again. He never showed the "instincts of a reclusive wild animal" at any point in the series nor was he even remotely like Tarzan.
As for Vegeta, he was under dark magic when he blew those people up.
No. No, no, no, no, no, no. There will be no whitewashing of Vegeta here. Even Vegeta readily admits, and the story explicitly shows, that Vegeta was doing what Vegeta wanted to do. Babidi did not make him kill those people. Babidi did not have control over him. Vegeta chose of his own free will to fire a killing blast no more than several feet away from the family he supposedly cares more about than Goku does his.
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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by fadeddreams5 » Fri May 29, 2015 8:51 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
I get the feeling you really aren't too familiar with the "pre-Z" portion of the story. You weren't even sure how old he was when he first met a girl. But the fact of the matter is, Toriyama really began writing Goku differently starting around the Cell arc, really playing up all this "Saiyan instinct" bull that he almost never showed signs of prior to. So if you are less than familiar with the earlier portions, I suppose it can be understood, but for the majority of Dragon Ball, he very much knew the concept of friendship. He went out of his way to be selfless. In the first arc that was what made him a foil for Blooma. She was selfish. He was more than willing to take this turtle he'd never met to the sea. He decided to gather the rest of the Dragon Balls just to wish his friend's dad back to life. He was always thrilled to see the gang again. He never showed the "instincts of a reclusive wild animal" at any point in the series nor was he even remotely like Tarzan.
You know, you're right. Goku did change throughout the series. I remember that turtle moment.

What happened? :'(

No. No, no, no, no, no, no. There will be no whitewashing of Vegeta here. Even Vegeta readily admits, and the story explicitly shows, that Vegeta was doing what Vegeta wanted to do. Babidi did not make him kill those people. Babidi did not have control over him. Vegeta chose of his own free will to fire a killing blast no more than several feet away from the family he supposedly cares more about than Goku does his.
I'm not saying he was controlled by Babidi, but in that form, his rage, anger, and hate were augmented, sort of how SSJ increases the aggression of the saiyan, only to a greater extent. In real life, no matter what sort of person you are, if you're depressed or infuriated, you may do things in your control you later regret. I believe Vegeta later on regrets doing that, but at that point, he was in full control; his emotions were just amplified by the magic. I mean, did you see that dude's veins?! O_O
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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by Cetra » Fri May 29, 2015 9:05 pm

- When people start claiming stuff about canonicity for the conscious or subconsious sake of arguing, using aspects they would never accept from the other side and are fully convinced everyone actually knows what they know, which is actually nothing, and just don't admit it.
- Unnecessary rants just for the sake of it like you have to find something toi complain about in every franchise.
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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by ABED » Fri May 29, 2015 9:40 pm

As for Vegeta, he was under dark magic when he blew those people up.
He allowed himself to fall under Babidi's control to gain power. He's culpable. You keep making this ridiculous claims how you are basing your views of who the better father is based on what we see in the series, but you never back it up. And not once has Vegeta ever shown regret for murdering anyone.
King Cold and King Vegeta are is a better father than Goku.
Quit making outrageous claims without backing it up.
Last edited by ABED on Fri May 29, 2015 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by NitroEX » Fri May 29, 2015 9:42 pm

Goku's "love" for Gohan is as debatable as his "love" for Chi-Chi in my opinion. He certainly cares about both of them but as they say, actions speak louder than words and Goku's actions generally don't seem like those of a person who really loves his family. A father who truly loves his son and wife more than anything would not voluntarily spend years away from them training in space or deny the offer of being revived in order to spend (potentially forever) in the afterlife with no promise of seeing them again.

Granted Toriyama did orchestrate all these things for story purposes because Goku was essentially a crutch for Gohan and the rest of the characters and he needed a way to take him out of the equation, unfortunately the way he handled it led to Goku coming across as a bit of an uncaring father & husband. Maybe if Toriyama had done things differently and come up with better reasons for Goku's absence then it wouldn't be so bad.

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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by ABED » Fri May 29, 2015 9:47 pm

NitroEX wrote:Goku's "love" for Gohan is as debatable as his "love" for Chi-Chi in my opinion. He certainly cares about both of them but as they say, actions speak louder than words and Goku's actions generally don't seem like those of a person who really loves his family. A father who truly loves his son and wife more than anything would not voluntarily spend years away from them training in space or deny the offer of being revived in order to spend (potentially forever) in the afterlife with no promise of seeing them again.

Granted Toriyama did orchestrate all these things for story purposes because Goku was essentially a crutch for Gohan and the rest of the characters and he needed a way to take him out of the equation, unfortunately the way he handled it led to Goku coming across as a bit of an uncaring father & husband. Maybe if Toriyama had done things differently and come up with better reasons for Goku's absence then it wouldn't be so bad.
Goku spent ONE year in space to learn a very valuable technique. He could've learned more by spending more time on Yardrat, but he went home. The only conclusion to draw from that is that he missed his home and everything that entails. Spending a year away from one's family is more than reasonable for anyone under the right circumstances. My father did it when he was in the military.

Goku said more than once "see you again when you die" meaning he thought he'd see them again.
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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Fri May 29, 2015 9:55 pm

Bardock is a better father than King Vegeta and a better person to boot... though the latter's not saying much.

Bardock got himself killed by Freeza fighting for his race specifically one of them being his son and expressed happiness for Goku being the one to beat Freeza in his vision during his dying moment. King Vegeta got himself killed by Freeza over stupid pride even when one of his people told him he's risking his son's life (he coldly tells the guy to fuck off).
Last edited by DBZAOTA482 on Fri May 29, 2015 9:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by ABED » Fri May 29, 2015 9:58 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:Bardock is a better father than King Vegeta and a better person to boot... though the latter's not saying much.

Bardock got himself killed by Freeza fighting for his race specifically of them being his son and expressed happiness for Goku being the one to beat Freeza in his vision during his dying moment. King Vegeta got himself killed by Freeza over stupid pride even when one of his people told him he's risking his son's life (he coldly tells the guy to fuck off).
And yet you can't think of ANYTHING Goku did that is equal to that?

First off, dying for your cause is easy. Not only has Goku defeated many big bads, he has also died saving the world.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Fri May 29, 2015 10:01 pm

ABED wrote:
DBZAOTA482 wrote:Bardock is a better father than King Vegeta and a better person to boot... though the latter's not saying much.

Bardock got himself killed by Freeza fighting for his race specifically of them being his son and expressed happiness for Goku being the one to beat Freeza in his vision during his dying moment. King Vegeta got himself killed by Freeza over stupid pride even when one of his people told him he's risking his son's life (he coldly tells the guy to fuck off).
And yet you can't think of ANYTHING Goku did that is equal to that?

First off, dying for your cause is easy. Not only has Goku defeated many big bads, he has also died saving the world.
Okay, I admit... Goku is not a poopy father.... in fact he might be even better than Bardock. I was just playing around.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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