What made GT so bad ?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

^ Pan was somewhat relevant, even during the Evil Dragons arc.

[TheGmGoken]

Gohan hair in GT is the same as it was EoZ...

What? No it wasn't.

Umm..yea it isis. His hair remained the same.

[DBZAOTA482]

^ Pan was somewhat relevant, even during the Evil Dragons arc.

<- Her failing to dodge sandworms' blast (the others even Giru dodge quite easily)
<- This is when Giru saves her

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

So in other words: nitpicking

Who killed Nutt?
Who knocked Rild on his ass?
Who held down Gero and saved Vegeta?
Who killed Oceanus Shenron?
Who was strong enough to push an Evil Dragon up to SS4 tier?

[DBZAOTA482]

So in other words: nitpicking

Who killed Nutt?
Who knocked Rild on his ass?
Who held down Gero and saved Vegeta?
Who killed Oceanus Shenron?
Who was strong enough to push an Evil Dragon up to SS4 tier?

She did, but it's not like she did it as a result of her being truly instrumental to his defeat. They just wanted to shove Pan in our faces...
She did, but it amounted to nothing plus he was caught off-guard and he beats her up after..
Anyone can do that
Goku killed her when he got serious
Yamcha was strong enough to push Shen into 23rd Budokai high-tier

Either way, none of them make up for the times she was useless or actively making the situations worse.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

She did, but it's not like she did it as a result of her being truly instrumental to his defeat. They just wanted to shove Pan in our faces...
She did, but it amounted to nothing plus he was caught off-guard and he beats her up after..
Anyone can do that
Goku killed her when he got serious
Yamcha was strong enough to push Shen into 23rd Budokai high-tier

-?
-It wasn't off guard, he was looking right at her.
-Krillin can?
-No, Pan's Kamehameha was the main strike, Goku's was just a catalyst to killing the Dragon.
-Your point? What does that have to with absorbing?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

-It wasn't off guard, he was looking right at her.

He was underestimating her though. He had a cocky face and allowed her to hit him, and you can see the surprise in his face when he got punched. In the end, the punch didn't do any damage to him.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

-It wasn't off guard, he was looking right at her.

He was underestimating her though. He had a cocky face and allowed her to hit him, and you can see the surprise in his face when he got punched. In the end, the punch didn't do any damage to him.

Yes, he underestimated her. That doesn't require him to drop down to 1% of his power.

It's still a notable feat, as even Goku and Trunks are impressed.

[DBZAOTA482]

She did, but it's not like she did it as a result of her being truly instrumental to his defeat. They just wanted to shove Pan in our faces...
She did, but it amounted to nothing plus he was caught off-guard and he beats her up after..
Anyone can do that
Goku killed her when he got serious
Yamcha was strong enough to push Shen into 23rd Budokai high-tier

-?
-It wasn't off guard, he was looking right at her.
-Krillin can?
-No, Pan's Kamehameha was the main strike, Goku's was just a catalyst to killing the Dragon.
-Your point? What does that have to with absorbing?

-Goku and Trunks could have done that as well... without the "girl gets stronger when they cry" bullshit
-He underestimated her and it did nothing in the end
-A strike that caught Oceanus off-guard when Goku wasn't taking her seriously
-Oh that's what you mean? Goku coulda finished him quite easily... Pan being inside the thing held him back.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Yes, he underestimated her. That doesn't require him to drop down to 1% of his power.

You don't have to be suppressed for a weaker guy to overpower you. Rild was technically caught off-guard, because he wasn't defending himself properly, since he thought that his opponent was much weaker than she actually was.

I mean, Freeza wasn't suppressed when Piccolo knocked him away, and Cell wasn't suppressed when Vegeta fired the ki blast and caught his attention during the Kamehameha clash with Gohan.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

-Goku and Trunks could have done that as well... without the "girl gets stronger when they cry" bullshit
-He underestimated her and it did nothing in the end
-A strike that caught Oceanus off-guard when Goku wasn't taking her seriously
-Oh that's what you mean? Goku coulda finished him quite easily... Pan being inside the thing held him back.

-Proof Trunks could?
-It's still a notable feat, it impressed Goku and prompted Trunks to question whether Pan was stronger than him or not.
-Off guard... despite looking right up at Pan...? If the power gap was so vast, wouldn't she just tank it, similar to 2nd form Freeza tanking Vegeta's 'off-guard' blast?
-I'd have to rewatch the fight, but wasn't the Dragon strong enough to survive a 10x Kamehameha from Goku?

I mean, Freeza wasn't suppressed when Piccolo knocked him away, and Cell wasn't suppressed when Vegeta fired the ki blast and caught his attention during the Kamehameha clash with Gohan.

Freeza can't sense Ki, Cell was distracted by the Kamehameha right in front of him.

You completely avoided the second half of my post.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Freeza can't sense Ki, Cell was distracted by the Kamehameha right in front of him.

And Rild underestimated her. None of them were suppressed.

You completely avoided the second half of my post.

I didn't, you hadn't edited your post when I replied. Goku & Trunks were impressed because they thought that Rild was defeated. Immediately after that, Rild stood up without a scratch.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

And Rild underestimated her. None of them were suppressed.

In neither of the instances you noted, was the enemy paying attention. Freeza was not looking at Piccolo, and Cell was not looking at Vegeta. Rild can sense Ki, and sees Pan coming right at him

I didn't, you hadn't edited your post when I replied. Goku & Trunks were impressed because they thought that Rild was defeated. Immediately after that, Rild stood up without a scratch.

My bad, but who said they thought Rild was defeated? They can sense Ki, so they'd know he's still alive.

This really is twisting/warping the whole scene in general. Pan is shown to knock down Rild, have Goku be impressed, and prompt Trunks to question if she's stronger than him... to show she's really weak?

Pan knocking down Rild is really only the tip of the iceberg, yet people will still find a way to twist/warp everything in a way that attempts to discredit the feats she has.

She came out unscathed from a blast from SS Goten-Baby, who was strong enough to give Base Gohan (who according to the GT Perfect Files, should be no weaker than his Ultimate self) some trouble, and even force him into Super Saiyan.

She could even mock a guy strong enough to warrant attention from a Super Saiyan 4.

Yet people still insist on her being so weak... because...?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

In neither of the instances you noted, was the enemy paying attention. Freeza was not looking at Piccolo, and Cell was not looking at Vegeta. Rild can sense Ki, and sees Pan coming right at him

Υet he didn't expect her to be as strong as she was. Which means that he didn't bother to sense her ki.

My bad, but who said they thought Rild was defeated? They can sense Ki, so they'd know he's still alive.

Just because they can sense ki doesn't mean that they are always sensing ki (like when Piccolo thought that Cell killed Gohan, even though it should have been obvious that he wasn't anywhere close to death). They were shocked when Pan knocked him down, yet Pan was surprised to see him stand up, and their shock went away when he stood up without a scratch.

She came out unscathed from a blast from SS Goten-Baby

Are you talking about episode 28? Because she isn't unscathed from Goten's ki blast.

who was strong enough to give Base Gohan (who according to the GT Perfect Files, should be no weaker than his Ultimate self) some trouble, and even force him into Super Saiyan.

The Perfect Files just say that Gohan trained before GT. We know that Gohan didn't train in the 10-year time-skip from DBZ, and he even lost Ultimate & SS2 before FnF, which, apparently, are still lost in GT for him. GT Base/SS Gohan may be stronger than base/SS Gohan from DBZ, but that doesn't mean he surpassed Z SS2/Ultimate Gohan.

She could even mock a guy strong enough to warrant attention from a Super Saiyan 4.

A big mouth means nothing.

Yet people still insist on her being so weak... because...?

I'm not saying she is "weak", I just don't see enough feats to place her above any of the base adults.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Υet he didn't expect her to be as strong as she was. Which means that he didn't bother to sense her ki.

Just because they can sense ki doesn't mean that they are always sensing ki (like when Piccolo thought that Cell killed Gohan, even though it should have been obvious that he wasn't anywhere close to death). They were shocked when Pan knocked him down, yet Pan was surprised to see him stand up, and their shock went away when he stood up without a scratch.

Fair enough on those points, I suppose, but there's still this:

Pan is shown to knock down Rild, have Goku be impressed, and prompt Trunks to question if she's stronger than him... to show she's really weak?

Are you talking about episode 28? Because she isn't unscathed from Goten's ki blast.

Yes, she practically was. No serious damage was done, she was only turned upside down. If Pan was much weaker than Goten, even weaker than his base, would the blast not have killed or seriously damaged her?

The Perfect Files just say that Gohan trained before GT. We know that Gohan didn't train in the 10-year time-skip from DBZ, and he even lost Ultimate & SS2 before FnF, which, apparently, are still lost in GT for him. GT Base/SS Gohan may be stronger than base/SS Gohan from DBZ, but that doesn't mean he surpassed Z SS2/Ultimate Gohan.

GT was made before FnF was made, and before it was established Gohan had lost his Ultimate power in Z.

GT does not support Gohan losing it anyway. He still has his Ultimate-exclusive eyes, and kept up with Rild (stronger than Gohan-Buu).

Also, if you're trying to say that the writers wrote that he trained to show us he got weaker, I don't mean to be rude, but I find that absurd.

A big mouth means nothing.

Episode 52, the one where Pan mocked Qi Xing Long's (Naturon) "ultimate finishing move" where he shot Kiko-Ha blasts from underground. She and Goku were laughing the attacks off and a point-blank one was easily dodged. Qi was complimented by SSjin 4 Goku earlier on for still standing after taking so many hits from him. The point of this is that the guys you're bringing up were contradicted in their boasting ways, but Pan wasn't, so what would there be to deny her statement aside from your own belief that it shouldn't be so?

During the last arc, she was capable of causing a lot of trouble to someone Base Goku struggled with (which is even more significant when remembering that S17 Arc SSJ Goku >/~ SS2 Vegeta > Super Oob). She was also fast enough that she easily dodged attacks from Qi Xing Long and even mocked him, which is impressive when remembering that Qi was on a level where he could take hits from SS4 Goku (and apart from extremely dire cases, power and speed often go hand in hand to some extent).

She was still far weaker than Base Si Xing Long and Base Goku when he fought that dragon, plus she got pushed to the sidelines during the final battle. During the battle against Liu Xing Long, she should probably be in the same ballpark as Base Vegeta Baby or Super Vegetto via powerscaling. After that, it's kind've awry, though we at least know she got stronger/faster.

I'm not saying she is "weak", I just don't see enough feats to place her above any of the base adults.

The feats are there. All of them are just twisted in a way to discredit her power, mainly due to bias against the character. To quote KP again:

Ja, Cadaver's passage just about summed up whatever I'd have said on the matter regarding her feats. She's a lot stronger than people give (or like to give) her credit for.

It's simply incredible how many people let their personal bias cloud their judgment on a character's strength, and even more so when they can't see that their judgment is clouded until they experience it themselves. Whether or not you like a character is no grounds for dismissing, twisting, warping, exaggerating, embellishing, discrediting, or what-have-you regarding that character's feats and/or statements, and I believe this community would be held in higher regard if people knew how to catch themselves or others when allowing presuppositions to seep into their arguments (and I mean really catch themselves, not simply ad hominem for a lack of their own material).

Every character has their supporters and detractors, some with a lot more than others (Gogeta, Broly, Pan, Goten/Trunks, and Gotenks are the main ones that come to mind). It's just a matter of reigning in that sort of delusion to produce a good debate. Instead of dismissing someone's argument because they bring up valid points against a character you happen to favor, or vice-versa, and dragging the debate out because you're unable to view things objectively (read: looking at things as they are, not how you deem them to be), just hug each other and shake hands. Give a reach-around if you have to.

Oh, yeah:

Pan (Evil Dragon arc) > SSj Vegetto > Pan (Baby arc, enraged) ~ Gohan-Boo > Pan (Baby arc) ~ Evil Boo

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Pan is shown to knock down Rild, have Goku be impressed, and prompt Trunks to question if she's stronger than him... to show she's really weak?

If they wanted to show that Pan really is stronger than Trunks, Rild would have remained on the ground. They just wanted to give to the audience the impression that Pan defeated Rild, until we learn that she didn't, and that Rild really is dangerous.

Yes, she practically was. No serious damage was done, she was only turned upside down. If Pan was much weaker than Goten, even weaker than his base, would the blast not have killed or seriously damaged her?

She did get damaged, watch the scene again. And the fact that she survived would just mean that Goten wasn't going all-out.

GT was made before FnF was made, and before it was established Gohan had lost his Ultimate power in Z.

GT does not support Gohan losing it anyway. He still has his Ultimate-exclusive eyes, and kept up with Rild (stronger than Gohan-Buu).

Yet why do we only see base & SS Gohan in GT? Oozaru Baby, Super #17, and Super Yi Xing Long are much more powerful than Rild, yet he only used Super Saiyan against them. Even in video-games, he only has these two forms.

As for his fight with Rild, we know he is stronger than Majin Boo, but we don't know which Majin Boo. Is it Gohan Boo, who is the strongest Boo? Is it Pure Boo, who is the final Boo that Goku fought? Is it Mr. Boo, the currently alive Boo? We can only guess. And even then, we see base Goku doing better against Rild than Gohan did. I'll take that as evidence for GT SS Gohan being stronger than Z U. Gohan though, my point was that the statement in GT PF doesn't prove anything.

Episode 52, the one where Pan mocked Qi Xing Long's (Naturon) "ultimate finishing move" where he shot Kiko-Ha blasts from underground. She and Goku were laughing the attacks off and a point-blank one was easily dodged. Qi was complimented by SSjin 4 Goku earlier on for still standing after taking so many hits from him. The point of this is that the guys you're bringing up were contradicted in their boasting ways, but Pan wasn't, so what would there be to deny her statement aside from your own belief that it shouldn't be so?

During the last arc, she was capable of causing a lot of trouble to someone Base Goku struggled with (which is even more significant when remembering that S17 Arc SSJ Goku >/~ SS2 Vegeta > Super Oob). She was also fast enough that she easily dodged attacks from Qi Xing Long and even mocked him, which is impressive when remembering that Qi was on a level where he could take hits from SS4 Goku (and apart from extremely dire cases, power and speed often go hand in hand to some extent).

Shouldn't you reply to my posts instead of using posts from other users from other forums?

Anyway, Goku & Pan were mocking Qi Xing Long's technique not because of its power, but because it was easy to dodge when they are in the air.

The feats are there. All of them are just twisted in a way to discredit her power, mainly due to bias against the character.

I don't have any bias against Pan.

[ABED]

-Goku and Trunks could have done that as well... without the "girl gets stronger when they cry" bullshit

Is that any worse than Gohan gets stronger because of his emotions?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

If they wanted to show that Pan really is stronger than Trunks, Rild would have remained on the ground. They just wanted to give to the audience the impression that Pan defeated Rild, until we learn that she didn't, and that Rild really is dangerous.

That sounds arbitrary. Why would Rild have to remain on the floor? Who says Trunks can even knock Rild down?

She did get damaged, watch the scene again.

Here's her after the blast:

Spoiler:

I wouldn't consider a scratch or 2 "damaged".

And the fact that she survived would just mean that Goten wasn't going all-out.

Making things up doesn't help your argument.

Yet why do we only see base & SS Gohan in GT? Oozaru Baby, Super #17, and Super Yi Xing Long are much more powerful than Rild, yet he only used Super Saiyan against them. Even in video-games, he only has these two forms.

Because his Ultimate is his "base". That's how GT sees it. The only reason he didn't use it against Rild is because Rild used his metal beam on Gohan's arm. If you watch Goku vs. Rild, Rild's metal beam knocked Goku out of SS, despite not actually doing damage, so it seems like it nullifies Super Saiyan.

As for his fight with Rild, we know he is stronger than Majin Boo, but we don't know which Majin Boo. Is it Gohan Boo, who is the strongest Boo? Is it Pure Boo, who is the final Boo that Goku fought? Is it Mr. Boo, the currently alive Boo? We can only guess. And even then, we see base Goku doing better against Rild than Gohan did.

Here's a write up I wrote. I myself think it is convincing: http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t212 ... eral-rild/

If you have any arguments against it, you can post it here.

I'll take that as evidence for GT SS Gohan being stronger than Z U. Gohan though, my point was that the statement in GT PF doesn't prove anything.

I don't see why? His base form still has his Ultimate traits.

Shouldn't you reply to my posts instead of using posts from other users from other forums?

Didn't think it mattered to you so much? I'd rather not pretend they're my own words, and I felt the way they were worded explained it thoroughly?

Anyway, Goku & Pan were mocking Qi Xing Long's technique not because of its power, but because it was easy to dodge when they are in the air.

Why would being in the air make it any easier? The blast still shoots up at them.

Reach for the stars.

I don't have any bias against Pan.

I think you making up things like Goten holding back against Pan kind of proved you do.

[DBZAOTA482]

-Goku and Trunks could have done that as well... without the "girl gets stronger when they cry" bullshit

Is that any worse than Gohan gets stronger because of his emotions?

Yes, cuz it's a false generalization and a bad message especially considering she was the first female lead for the series in the longest time. It proves she's a horrible female protagonist.

Yet people still insist on her being so weak... because...?

Oh, I feel you there. I'll level with you and say she's around Ultimate Gohan's level despite how little sense it may make.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Yet people still insist on her being so weak... because...?

Oh, I feel you there. I'll level with you and say she's around Ultimate Gohan's level despite how little sense it may make.

Well, I agree it's dumb, but this is a Toei production. They even make Goten strong enough to be relevant to the likes of Base Gohan (stronger than Ultimate Gohan.)