So what exactly is this SSGSS?

[Hitiro]

They aren't canon like every other franchise deals with "different dimensions" aren't considered as canon. Even if they haven't established an official canon it is clear that anything Toriyama his written storywise is considered canon and anything else falls outside of that in the "whatever" category. You can choose to believe that it's canon if you want but the simple fact of the matter is if it was canon then it would have some baring on what is perceived by everyone(Toriyama's work) as what is canon.

Do you have any proof that XenoVerse, or the different dimensions, are non-canon? Do you have a statement that confirms this?

If they don't fit in Toriyama's story then that is all the proof we need really.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If they don't fit in Toriyama's story then that is all the proof we need really.

XenoVerse fits fine, and anything that doesn't fit takes place in different dimensions.

[Hitiro]

If they don't fit in Toriyama's story then that is all the proof we need really.

XenoVerse fits fine, and anything that doesn't fit takes place in different dimensions.

It doesn't fit fine because it alters the main story. Which doesn't stay altered. Otherwise everyone would know of your character in it and there would be some reference in it in the actual story. So it must be non-canon. And like I already said before the different dimensions stuff fall into non-canon too much like how other manga's and comics will have "different dimensions" and they are ignored over the main continuity.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It doesn't fit fine because it alters the main story. Which doesn't stay altered. Otherwise everyone would know of your character in it and there would be some reference in it in the actual story. So it must be non-canon.

They were altered after the normal events shown in the manga/anime happened. First the manga/anime happened, then XV happened, and slight changes happened in the history in the past.

And like I already said before the different dimensions stuff fall into non-canon too much like how other manga's and comics will have "different dimensions" and they are ignored over the main continuity.

What are you talking about? Are the RoSaT dimension & Trunks' timeline non-canon?

[Hitiro]

It doesn't fit fine because it alters the main story. Which doesn't stay altered. Otherwise everyone would know of your character in it and there would be some reference in it in the actual story. So it must be non-canon.

They were altered after the normal events shown in the manga/anime happened. First the manga/anime happened, then XV happened, and slight changes happened in the history in the past.

Then from this point on the events of Xenoverse should be in the main continuity then. Goku should reference the hero that helped him through every battle. But that isn't going to happen, now is it? If things alter the continuity of the story then that will be the new continuity. Like how Marvel are merging the Ultimate and Amazing universes into one. The events of Xenoverse should establish a new continuity after the movies. Do they? No. They don't. Hence, non-canon.

And like I already said before the different dimensions stuff fall into non-canon too much like how other manga's and comics will have "different dimensions" and they are ignored over the main continuity.

What are you talking about? Are the RoSaT dimension & Trunks' timeline non-canon?

Those are dimensions that have direct correlation to the main continuity. So they are allowed. Does Goku talk about the hero that stopped Beerus from being taking over by Miira and Towa? No. So they can't be regarded as canon. Trunks directly shows up in the main timeline/continuity. Main characters go into the the RoSaT.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

They were altered after the normal events shown in the manga/anime happened. First the manga/anime happened, then XV happened, and slight changes happened in the history in the past.

Then from this point on the events of Xenoverse should be in the main continuity then. Goku should reference the hero that helped him through every battle. But that isn't going to happen, now is it? If things alter the continuity of the story then that will be the new continuity. Like how Marvel are merging the Ultimate and Amazing universes into one. The events of Xenoverse should establish a new continuity after the movies. Do they? No. They don't. Hence, non-canon.

The game tells you that the Time Kaioshin places the changed events into new scrolls, leaving the normal timeline unchanged. The problem for Xenoverse are the instances where Trunks starts rambling about what the correct version of history should be like, but those events never played out like that in the manga or anime (because the characters haven't been included in the game and thus events have been adapted to fit).

[Hitiro]

The game tells you that the Time Kaioshin places the changed events into new scrolls, leaving the normal timeline unchanged. The problem for Xenoverse are the instances where Trunks starts rambling about what the correct version of history should be like, but those events never played out like that in the manga or anime (because the characters haven't been included in the game and thus events have been adapted to fit).

Did she say that? I recall the talk about her placing them in new scrolls but I don't remember her saying it would leave the normal timeline unchanged.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

When the distortions happen, the Book of Endings and Beginnings tears. When history is corrected, the scroll returns to normal. If the original timeline was to be left altered and the scroll isn't damaged anymore, what point would there be to doing anything with new ones?

[Blackstripe]

Do you have any proof that XenoVerse, or the different dimensions, are non-canon? Do you have a statement that confirms this?

You either missed my previous post or ignored it, but as I pointed out before: the burden of proof is on you, not us. You must prove that these things are canon as they contradict the main story written by Akira Toriyama. We need not prove they are non-canon, because they seem to obviously be.

[Hitiro]

When the distortions happen, the Book of Endings and Beginnings tears. When history is corrected, the scroll returns to normal. If the original timeline was to be left altered and the scroll isn't damaged anymore, what point would there be to doing anything with new ones?

If she is placing them in the time vault doesn't that mean they are now a part of history? And why would she need to create new scrolls if everything has returned to normal? Also, wasn't the whole point of the story that they have to stop them from altering the timeline because it would overload the time vault? I don't see the need to stop the that badly if you could just fix the timeline by undoing what they had done. Unless the effects of altering the timelines were more permanent.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

If she is placing them in the time vault doesn't that mean they are now a part of history? And why would she need to create new scrolls if everything has returned to normal? Also, wasn't the whole point of the story that they have to stop them from altering the timeline because it would overload the time vault? I don't see the need to stop the that badly if you could just fix the timeline by undoing what they had done. Unless the effects of altering the timelines were more permanent.

That's exactly what it means, and while slightly different from DBO (where they created new timelines that needed to be recorded from the beginning), Xenoverse is accomplishing the same thing in a different way.

The scroll has returned to normal because the major changes being made are reversed, but events have still changed. Keeping those altered events as the "standard" version of history could still have a butterfly effect that unintentionally changes other events down the line for that timeline (which the Time Kaioshin seems to view as the standard one, because of how everything always seems to work out for the best).

Yes, that's part of the plot, but as already mentioned, she's not just undoing the damage that has been done. The events are being put into new scrolls, but if the Time Patrol doesn't reverse the changes being made that have torn the scroll in the first place, the Time Kaioshin doesn't appear to be capable of doing it. But once history is back on the right general path and the scroll mends itself, the changed timeline gets placed into a new scroll and that also takes up space in the Time Vault. So they still need to actually stop Towa & Mira (or others) from doing the time travel stuff.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Those are dimensions that have direct correlation to the main continuity. So they are allowed. Does Goku talk about the hero that stopped Beerus from being taking over by Miira and Towa? No. So they can't be regarded as canon. Trunks directly shows up in the main timeline/continuity. Main characters go into the the RoSaT.

So, unless these different dimension are mentioned in the main story, they are not canon? Where is that rule stated? Even then, we do visit them in XenoVerse, which takes place in the main timeline.

You either missed my previous post or ignored it, but as I pointed out before: the burden of proof is on you, not us. You must prove that these things are canon as they contradict the main story written by Akira Toriyama. We need not prove they are non-canon, because they seem to obviously be.

XenoVerse doesn't contradict anything, and the movies & GT take place in different timelines, so they can contradict the main story whenever they want because they don't take place in that one. We also don't have a defined canon in Dragon Ball, so nothing says "only this & this is canon". We have no reason to disregard XV, unless you exclusively go by Toriyama's stories. Which is something Shueisha doesn't do.

[Hitiro]

Those are dimensions that have direct correlation to the main continuity. So they are allowed. Does Goku talk about the hero that stopped Beerus from being taking over by Miira and Towa? No. So they can't be regarded as canon. Trunks directly shows up in the main timeline/continuity. Main characters go into the the RoSaT.

So, unless these different dimension are mentioned in the main story, they are not canon? Where is that rule stated? Even then, we do visit them in XenoVerse, which takes place in the main timeline.

It's a common thing in comics and manga's. Unless these stories are referenced in the main story some way they are considered spin-off's and as such don't have the canonicty required to be included with the main story. In the Flash storyline the Jay Garrick universe was thought to be just non-canon after the Barry Allen Flash arrived and the universe. It was only until the comic Flash of two worlds. That the Jay Garrick universe was treated as canon again because it crossed over into the main continuity. The other possible way for it to be considered canon is if the people creating the story tell us it is. But that has never happened in Dragon Ball.

Regardless, GT can't exist as part of the main continuity. Because there are things like SSJGSSJ as well as other story elements like why Freeza didn't become Golden Freeza in GT that don't make them fit. Even if Xenoverse has tried to make it seem like the GT storyline has some link with BoG and FnF it is impossible for that to be true without retconning BoG and FnF's storylines and reworking them for GT. In that instance Xenoverse obviously does contradict what we already have. So unless Xenoverse is going to rectify these details it actually doesn't work. There are a lot of inconsistencies in Xenoverse that won't hold up.

That's exactly what it means, and while slightly different from DBO (where they created new timelines that needed to be recorded from the beginning), Xenoverse is accomplishing the same thing in a different way.

The scroll has returned to normal because the major changes being made are reversed, but events have still changed. Keeping those altered events as the "standard" version of history could still have a butterfly effect that unintentionally changes other events down the line for that timeline (which the Time Kaioshin seems to view as the standard one, because of how everything always seems to work out for the best).

Yes, that's part of the plot, but as already mentioned, she's not just undoing the damage that has been done. The events are being put into new scrolls, but if the Time Patrol doesn't reverse the changes being made that have torn the scroll in the first place, the Time Kaioshin doesn't appear to be capable of doing it. But once history is back on the right general path and the scroll mends itself, the changed timeline gets placed into a new scroll and that also takes up space in the Time Vault. So they still need to actually stop Towa & Mira (or others) from doing the time travel stuff.

So are the corrected timelines, by your character, not the timelines used from this point on? I don't really understand where you are going with this. Surely if changing the events of a timeline would create a new timeline but you can still preserve the old timeline then it shouldn't matter.

Yes, you should stop Towa & Mira from overflowing the time vault. But if it's the simple case of, hey we'll just make a new scroll but still keep using the old scroll then wouldn't they do that? Because even if we say that you're correcting the timeline you aren't actually correcting the timeline because you, as a character, are still an abnormality. Why not just allow the Towa & Mira alterations to be what the are and keep them as new scrolls but stop Towa & Mira? And doesn't Time Patrol Trunks come out with stuff like "I remember you now, I must have picked you because you saved me back then. I understand why I chose you now."? So in that case wouldn't Goku and the gang not remember you across the period of you showing up and saving them/helping them? I mean Trunks has already created an alternate timeline that was never corrected so there should be no issues with others existing as long as there aren't several.

[TobyS]

The Marvel Chronology Project has the best, most logical, and stance on deciding canon, something is not canon because:

1. "[Word of God] says it isn't" e.g. "GT is a side story", comments on Episode of Bardock
AND/OR
2. "It can't be" e.g. The contradictions in the movies, "so and so should be dead, by the time he was back this guy wouldn't be a threat to this other guy" (Even Movie 9)


As for Xenoverse, it's not made implicit, and a lot was lost in the lousy translation, here's my "no-prize worthy" fan-wank explanation, IMO this must be true in context:

1. Time Kaioshin says [paraphrased] "changing history is inherently bad =/= because doing so too much will break time"
2. You synch up some iconic events, slap the shit of the 3 people responsible.
3. Time Kaioshin declares everything is cool now.
4. "But wait!" bitter neophobic haters who either can't afford/beat the game or just plain hate fun will cry, "small changes stayed in effect, for example you might have made sure Goku and Vegeta ended up doing their iconic beam struggle, but you were still involved yet didn't appear in the manga, this must mean the games events are non-canon!"
5. Think of time like a rubber band, it can be tugged so far and it will still ping back into it's original shape (or close enough to be functionally identical), the effect of the pull, and all evidence of it having happened will have disappeared.
6. Completing the missions and restoring iconic scenes is effectively reducing the effect on the timeline from what would have been a breakage, down to something it can and does (Because, after all, you aren't in the manga!) snap back from (With the Time Kaioshins/Supreme Kais intervention). You get to remember the pre-fix fucked with timeline because you are plucked out back to the time nest before the "bounce-back" kicks in.
7. The evidence for this is that characters don't remember you, you get "who's this guy/he seems to be on our side" etcetera. as opposed to "hey this guy who helped us fight Freeza is the same dude who helped us against the saibamen". The only time people can and do remember you or altered events are:
A. High level Gods (Classic case of comic book style "cosmic awareness")
B. People already outside the timelines, e.g Miira/Towa/Demigra and everyone in the time nest. "Trunks 'remembers' your help only after seeing it all replay.
C. Kaioshin of Time allows the change to occur and stay active, she lets the time-stream/rubber band bend.

[Hitiro]

The Marvel Chronology Project has the best, most logical, and stance on deciding canon, something is not canon because:

1. "[Word of God] says it isn't" e.g. "GT is a side story", comments on Episode of Bardock
AND/OR
2. "It can't be" e.g. The contradictions in the movies, "so and so should be dead, by the time he was back this guy wouldn't be a threat to this other guy" (Even Movie 9)


As for Xenoverse, it's not made implicit, and a lot was lost in the lousy translation, here's my "no-prize worthy" fan-wank explanation, IMO this must be true in context:

1. Time Kaioshin says [paraphrased] "changing history is inherently bad =/= because doing so too much will break time"
2. You synch up some iconic events, slap the shit of the 3 people responsible.
3. Time Kaioshin declares everything is cool now.
4. "But wait!" bitter neophobic haters who either can't afford/beat the game or just plain hate fun will cry, "small changes stayed in effect, for example you might have made sure Goku and Vegeta ended up doing their iconic beam struggle, but you were still involved yet didn't appear in the manga, this must mean the games events are non-canon!"
5. Think of time like a rubber band, it can be tugged so far and it will still ping back into it's original shape (or close enough to be functionally identical), the effect of the pull, and all evidence of it having happened will have disappeared.
6. Completing the missions and restoring iconic scenes is effectively reducing the effect on the timeline from what would have been a breakage, down to something it can and does (Because, after all, you aren't in the manga!) snap back from (With the Time Kaioshins/Supreme Kais intervention). You get to remember the pre-fix fucked with timeline because you are plucked out back to the time nest before the "bounce-back" kicks in.
7. The evidence for this is that characters don't remember you, you get "who's this guy/he seems to be on our side" etcetera. as opposed to "hey this guy who helped us fight Freeza is the same dude who helped us against the saibamen". The only time people can and do remember you or altered events are:
A. High level Gods (Classic case of comic book style "cosmic awareness")
B. People already outside the timelines, e.g Miira/Towa/Demigra and everyone in the time nest. "Trunks 'remembers' your help only after seeing it all replay.
C. Kaioshin of Time allows the change to occur and stay active, she lets the time-stream/rubber band bend.

The problem with this is 5. You say that the rubber band theory will ping it back into place and all evidence of it having happened will disappear. If that is the case then why are there new scrolls? The new scrolls signify the altered/corrected timelines you influenced. Therefore the rubber band theory is incorrect. It's also incorrect because while Trunks does not fully remember you he still sort of knew you which is why he came and picked you in the first place. So again, if all evidence had disappeared this wouldn't have been the case. Even if they don't remember you the characters show several times that they feel a familiarity with you. And while they may not remember you they would remember how a fight went. So it would be more like, "a person showed up to help us in this event, I can't really remember what he was like though."

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It's a common thing in comics and manga's. Unless these stories are referenced in the main story some way they are considered spin-off's and as such don't have the canonicty required to be included with the main story. In the Flash storyline the Jay Garrick universe was thought to be just non-canon after the Barry Allen Flash arrived and the universe. It was only until the comic Flash of two worlds. That the Jay Garrick universe was treated as canon again because it crossed over into the main continuity. The other possible way for it to be considered canon is if the people creating the story tell us it is. But that has never happened in Dragon Ball.

But we are not making up that GT & movies take place in different dimensions in order to make them fit. Toriyama stated that they take place in a different dimension from the manga. Therefore, they take place in a different dimension from the manga. The Daizenshuu acknowledge this, and we even see it happening in XenoVerse.

Regardless, GT can't exist as part of the main continuity. Because there are things like SSJGSSJ as well as other story elements like why Freeza didn't become Golden Freeza in GT that don't make them fit. Even if Xenoverse has tried to make it seem like the GT storyline has some link with BoG and FnF it is impossible for that to be true without retconning BoG and FnF's storylines and reworking them for GT. In that instance Xenoverse obviously does contradict what we already have. So unless Xenoverse is going to rectify these details it actually doesn't work. There are a lot of inconsistencies in Xenoverse that won't hold up.

Which is why GT is treated officially as an alternate timeline. XV only links BoG with GT, and they can fit together because we have no idea what happened between those 11 years between BoG & GT, other than Goku leaving with Oob to train in the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai. For example, maybe Goku didn't manage to absorb the power of Super Saiyan God in that timeline, and the Pilaf Gang may had gathered the DBs again to get old again.

[Kamiccolo9]

Toriyama never said that GT took place in an alternate dimension. He only ever said that it was a "grand side story," which has no bearing on canonicity.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Toriyama never said that GT took place in an alternate dimension. He only ever said that it was a "grand side story," which has no bearing on canonicity.

I know, but XenoVerse has GT as an alternate timeline. I had the movies in my mind when I was talking about Toriyama & the Daizenshuu, my bad for not being clear.

[Bullza]

Battle of Gods doesn't link with GT though. Toriyama said he wrote Battle of Gods as if it were a continuation of the manga. The press statement specifically said what two chapters the movie took place between. GT as Toriyama said was simply a side story. They aren't linked.

You might be taking Xenoverse a little too literally here.

[Hitiro]

But we are not making up that GT & movies take place in different dimensions in order to make them fit. Toriyama stated that they take place in a different dimension from the manga. Therefore, they take place in a different dimension from the manga. The Daizenshuu acknowledge this, and we even see it happening in XenoVerse.

Comics also place storylines in different dimensions to segregate them from the main canonicity and they are always considered to not be relevant, or canon, and ignored.

Regardless, GT can't exist as part of the main continuity. Because there are things like SSJGSSJ as well as other story elements like why Freeza didn't become Golden Freeza in GT that don't make them fit. Even if Xenoverse has tried to make it seem like the GT storyline has some link with BoG and FnF it is impossible for that to be true without retconning BoG and FnF's storylines and reworking them for GT. In that instance Xenoverse obviously does contradict what we already have. So unless Xenoverse is going to rectify these details it actually doesn't work. There are a lot of inconsistencies in Xenoverse that won't hold up.

Which is why GT is treated officially as an alternate timeline. XV only links BoG with GT, and they can fit together because we have no idea what happened between those 11 years between BoG & GT, other than Goku leaving with Oob to train in the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai. For example, maybe Goku didn't manage to absorb the power of Super Saiyan God in that timeline, and the Pilaf Gang may had gathered the DBs again to get old again.

These assumptions are you trying to justify a reason to link the two though. All we can go on is the material that is already provided to us. And the material that is provided to us points to GT not linking with BoG or FnF. There is no point in making wild accusations about things we don't know. Otherwise I suppose you're going to tell me that Freeza never trained and got a super power up either and never got a new transformation? I also guess you're going to tell me that every character had their memories wiped about the SSJGod form and it's power but just remember Beerus and Whis? Because that form have been very useful in GT in combating Bebi Vegeta.