Kid Goku GT vs. SSGSS Goku?

[Sora Saiyan]

I go with SGSS Goku being miles above GT Goku, in fact I'd say GT Goku isn't in the same league.

[Friezacooler]

GT kid Goku stomps hard lol

[GTx10]

Is that GT anime book here on Kan zen Shu? I'd love to see that comment on Vegeto being stronger than SS4. Also wouldn't GT Goku be stronger since his story happens after RoF?

[Kamiccolo9]

Don't we have an entire versus thread dedicated to this stuff?

[Sora Saiyan]

Is that GT anime book here on Kan zen Shu? I'd love to see that comment on Vegeto being stronger than SS4. Also wouldn't GT Goku be stronger since his story happens after RoF?

Merging With Vegeta!
After Goku and Vegeta use a merging item to merge, they become Vegetto! They can furthermore become a Super Saiyan, making them Super Vegetto! After the two strongest people merge, they become the greatest master in the universe! Perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4!

That's the Vegetto comparison quote. I believe that was a page translated by Herms on the "All Purpose Translation Request Thread". I don't think the entire book is on Kanzenshuu. Also a lot of people, including myself, place GT and the new movies seperately.

[Friezacooler]

Is that GT anime book here on Kan zen Shu? I'd love to see that comment on Vegeto being stronger than SS4. Also wouldn't GT Goku be stronger since his story happens after RoF?

Merging With Vegeta!
After Goku and Vegeta use a merging item to merge, they become Vegetto! They can furthermore become a Super Saiyan, making them Super Vegetto! After the two strongest people merge, they become the greatest master in the universe! Perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4!

That's the Vegetto comparison quote. I believe that was a page translated by Herms on the "All Purpose Translation Request Thread". I don't think the entire book is on Kanzenshuu. Also a lot of people, including myself, place GT and the new movies seperately.

"Perhaps" meaning who ever made that comment isn't sure what they talkin about lol.

[dbgtFO]

"Perhaps" meaning who ever made that comment isn't sure what they talkin about lol.

I came in here to post exactly that.
I don't care much for non-committal statements like these, either he is or he isn't, otherwise it's no better than fan speculation.

[Hitiro]

Exactly, if some little kids who can only go Super Saiyan can fuse and turn into a SSJ3 then why wouldn't Vegito when they're made up of a stronger, more experienced pair of which one already knows how to become a SSJ3.

It'd make no sense for them not to be able to go SSJ3.

But for Goten and Trunks to actually go SSJ3 they had to have at least a couple of days worth of training. In the manga they had been in there for at least 7 days. I would imagine Vegetto would have been able to attain it quicker than 7 days but I still don't think he has the form right off the bat. Let's also not forget that the kids couldn't transform into a SSJ as Gotenks until after they went into the RoSaT. But they already knew how to become a SSJ. I would imagine it is a different feeling for each person to transform. Kind of like how when Ginyu and Goku swapped bodies, Ginyu couldn't access much of Goku's power.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

GT happens after the events of FnF so GT goku would be way stronger.

[Hitiro]

GT happens after the events of FnF so GT goku would be way stronger.

That would only be the case if the events of FnF took place before GT. For all we know GT is a different timeline where FnF never happened. It would make more sense for that to be the case because GT doesn't have Golden Freeza or SSJGSSJ. Therefore, no. GT Goku would not necessarily be way stronger.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

GT happens after the events of FnF so GT goku would be way stronger.

That would only be the case if the events of FnF took place before GT. For all we know GT is a different timeline where FnF never happened. It would make more sense for that to be the case because GT doesn't have Golden Freeza or SSJGSSJ. Therefore, no. GT Goku would not necessarily be way stronger.

what are you talking about? consistency has nothing to do with whats in the continuity. thats determined by the head of the series. toei puts GT in the same continuity as BOG and FnF.

[Hitiro]

what are you talking about? consistency has nothing to do with whats in the continuity. thats determined by the head of the series. toei puts GT in the same continuity as BOG and FnF.

Toei hasn't put GT in the same continuity. Shueisha has put BoG, FnF and GT along the same timeline in the Chozenshuu. But that means nothing really as there are several timelines that put even the movies along the same timeline. Doesn't mean that they are the same continuity.

The only thing to hint that they are the same continuity is the Xenoverse game but we can just put that down to artistic liberty of the game developers.

And consistency has everything to do with continuity. If Akira Toriyama is going to ignore everything from GT then they can't be in the same continuity. Toei has no say in what Akira Toriyama does with his work. He is the creator not them. So far everything of Akira Toriyama has done ignores the stuff in GT. Unless Akira Toriyama turns around and makes Goku lose both SSJGSSJ and his power and also makes Freeza lose his Golden form. Also making them forget who Beerus is and re-age Pilaf and his gang. Then GT can't be in the same continuity.

[Saiyan007]

How people still think that GT is in the same Universe as BOG and FNF is mind boggling .

It's clear as day that it's an alternate universe

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

what are you talking about? consistency has nothing to do with whats in the continuity. thats determined by the head of the series. toei puts GT in the same continuity as BOG and FnF.

Toei hasn't put GT in the same continuity. Shueisha has put BoG, FnF and GT along the same timeline in the Chozenshuu. But that means nothing really as there are several timelines that put even the movies along the same timeline. Doesn't mean that they are the same continuity.

The only thing to hint that they are the same continuity is the Xenoverse game but we can just put that down to artistic liberty of the game developers.

And consistency has everything to do with continuity. If Akira Toriyama is going to ignore everything from GT then they can't be in the same continuity. Toei has no say in what Akira Toriyama does with his work. He is the creator not them. So far everything of Akira Toriyama has done ignores the stuff in GT. Unless Akira Toriyama turns around and makes Goku lose both SSJGSSJ and his power and also makes Freeza lose his Golden form. Also making them forget who Beerus is and re-age Pilaf and his gang. Then GT can't be in the same continuity.

i was unaware that fans actually had the power to arbitrarily make up criteria for whats part of the official continuity.

toriyama isnt the sole rights holder of the series, so he cannot do whatever he wants. toei holds the rights to all live dbz productions. they can shove their work anywhere in the continuity as they please just like toriyama can do the same.

"The global phenomenon Dragon Ball is being made into a movie using Toei Animation’s latest technology, consistently realized as a Toriyama work, with the original author Akira Toriyama himself deeply involve from the script stage for the first time. An episode from between the animation series “Z” and “GT”, or in other words from the blank decade between the end of the battle with Majin Buu in chapter 517 of the manga and chapter 518, will be depicted for the first time."
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2012/09/26/to ... l-z-movie/


toriyama doesnt have to make anything consistent with GT. he can ignore it entirely, but that doesnt change where it stands in the official continuity because toei already placed it in the main continuity.

[Hitiro]

i was unaware that fans actually had the power to arbitrarily make up criteria for whats part of the official continuity.

This isn't arbitarily making up criteria for what's official continuity.

toriyama isnt the sole rights holder of the series, so he cannot do whatever he wants. toei holds the rights to all live dbz productions. they can shove their work anywhere in the continuity as they please just like toriyama can do the same.

Toriyama owns the intellectual property of the Dragon Ball franchise by being the creator. Toei have to follow what he wants or he can easily sue them. So no, they can't do as they please.

"The global phenomenon Dragon Ball is being made into a movie using Toei Animation’s latest technology, consistently realized as a Toriyama work, with the original author Akira Toriyama himself deeply involve from the script stage for the first time. An episode from between the animation series “Z” and “GT”, or in other words from the blank decade between the end of the battle with Majin Buu in chapter 517 of the manga and chapter 518, will be depicted for the first time."
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2012/09/26/to ... l-z-movie/

What does this prove exactly? Using GT as a reference point does not mean that it must be in the main continuity. I could say that the Boo arc takes place between the Cell Games and Trunks' timeline. That doesn't put Trunks' timeline in the main continuity/timeline. Does it?

toriyama doesnt have to make anything consistent with GT. he can ignore it entirely, but that doesnt change where it stands in the official continuity because toei already placed it in the main continuity.

Toei has not placed it in the main continuity. I don't understand why you say this. Unless Toei literally says that it is part of the main continuity then what you're saying means nothing. If Toriyama makes Dragon Ball Super go past where GT starts I guess you're going to continue saying GT is part of the main continuity then?

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

This isn't arbitarily making up criteria for what's official continuity.

yes it is. you are arbitrarily trying to decide whats part of the continuity. how heads of the series have always established continuity is stating in what period of time an event happened.
GT being established as dragonballs side story that occurs after dbz by default puts it into the main continuity. BOG being stated to happen before GT, as well as happening between chapters 517 & 518 puts every single one of those events into one continuity.

Toriyama owns the intellectual property of the Dragon Ball franchise by being the creator. Toei have to follow what he wants or he can easily sue them. So no, they can't do as they please.

if toei for some reason did something with toriyamas work that wasnt within legal boundaries, then sure. the same applies to toriyama though. toei owns a part of the franchise.

What does this prove exactly? Using GT as a reference point does not mean that it must be in the main continuity. I could say that the Boo arc takes place between the Cell Games and Trunks' timeline. That doesn't put Trunks' timeline in the main continuity/timeline. Does it?

this point is fallacious since the boo arc doesnt happen before the events of trunks' timeline yet BOG is clearly stated to happen before GT. toriyama nor toei, would ever say something as foolish as you are trying to suggest.
no head of the series has ever used an event of a different timeline as a reference point for the main timeline. BOG didnt happen before trunks' final battle with the androids.

Toei has not placed it in the main continuity. I don't understand why you say this. Unless Toei literally says that it is part of the main continuity then what you're saying means nothing. If Toriyama makes Dragon Ball Super go past where GT starts I guess you're going to continue saying GT is part of the main continuity then?

toei does not literally have to say the words "GT is part of the main continuity" verbatim. they dont even have to use the word "continuity".
they just have to clarify when an event took place. the logic that you are using for your entire argument is extremely fallacious.

toeis statement has only one possible interpretation. it doesnt really matter how hard you try to weasel your way out of accepting official statements. thats something that 99% of the fanbase does already, so its not like i was expecting anything different here.

I've already proven without a shadow of a doubt with direct statements that BOG, FnF and GT all happen within one continuity. it isnt anyones problem but the fans if they dont want to accept it, not toeis or toriyamas. I'm done here. i dont feel having arguments with the db fanbase about continuity because no matter how much evidence is presented, they will twist it and try to create their own continuity, just as you have demonstrated.

[Soccerjam]

This isn't arbitarily making up criteria for what's official continuity.

yes it is. you are arbitrarily trying to decide whats part of the continuity. how heads of the series have always established continuity is stating in what period of time an event happened.
GT being established as dragonballs side story that occurs after dbz by default puts it into the main continuity. BOG being stated to happen before GT, as well as happening between chapters 517 & 518 puts every single one of those events into one continuity.

Toriyama owns the intellectual property of the Dragon Ball franchise by being the creator. Toei have to follow what he wants or he can easily sue them. So no, they can't do as they please.

if toei for some reason did something with toriyamas work that wasnt within legal boundaries, then sure. the same applies to toriyama though. toei owns a part of the franchise.

What does this prove exactly? Using GT as a reference point does not mean that it must be in the main continuity. I could say that the Boo arc takes place between the Cell Games and Trunks' timeline. That doesn't put Trunks' timeline in the main continuity/timeline. Does it?

this point is fallacious since the boo arc doesnt happen before the events of trunks' timeline yet BOG is clearly stated to happen before GT. toriyama nor toei, would ever say something as foolish as you are trying to suggest.
no head of the series has ever used an event of a different timeline as a reference point for the main timeline. BOG didnt happen before trunks' final battle with the androids.

Toei has not placed it in the main continuity. I don't understand why you say this. Unless Toei literally says that it is part of the main continuity then what you're saying means nothing. If Toriyama makes Dragon Ball Super go past where GT starts I guess you're going to continue saying GT is part of the main continuity then?

toei does not literally have to say the words "GT is part of the main continuity" verbatim. they dont even have to use the word "continuity".
they just have to clarify when an event took place. the logic that you are using for your entire argument is extremely fallacious.

toeis statement has only one possible interpretation. it doesnt really matter how hard you try to weasel your way out of accepting official statements. thats something that 99% of the fanbase does already, so its not like i was expecting anything different here.

I've already proven without a shadow of a doubt with direct statements that BOG, FnF and GT all happen within one continuity. it isnt anyones problem but the fans if they dont want to accept it, not toeis or toriyamas. I'm done here. i dont feel having arguments with the db fanbase about continuity because no matter how much evidence is presented, they will twist it and try to create their own continuity, just as you have demonstrated.

YES! I KNEW I WASN'T ALONE!

[Hitiro]

This isn't arbitarily making up criteria for what's official continuity.

yes it is. you are arbitrarily trying to decide whats part of the continuity. how heads of the series have always established continuity is stating in what period of time an event happened.
GT being established as dragonballs side story that occurs after dbz by default puts it into the main continuity. BOG being stated to happen before GT, as well as happening between chapters 517 & 518 puts every single one of those events into one continuity.

The "heads of the series" have never established what is in the continuity. You're the one who is arbitrarily deciding what's part of the continuity here. Everything we have seen up till now points to GT existing as an alternate timeline. So it wouldn't be classed as part of the main continuity. If you have a rationale that can explain away the points of BoG and FnF for GT to make sense in the main continuity I'm all for it. But falling short of losing SSJGSSJ, Golden form and a power loss. There is no way we can tie GT into the main continuity. No matter how much you want it to be true. But I never said it's impossible that it couldn't be part of the continuity providing they find a way to get around these problems.

Toriyama owns the intellectual property of the Dragon Ball franchise by being the creator. Toei have to follow what he wants or he can easily sue them. So no, they can't do as they please.

if toei for some reason did something with toriyamas work that wasnt within legal boundaries, then sure. the same applies to toriyama though. toei owns a part of the franchise.

This is incorrect. Toriyama has free reign to do whatever he wants with the franchise. Toei has no bearing on what he does. They are obligated to stick to the boundaries he set as the creator. If they fall out of that or if he deems what they do unnecessary then he can challenge them on it. That is why Toyotaro had to come to Akira Toriyama to develop stories and not Toei.

What does this prove exactly? Using GT as a reference point does not mean that it must be in the main continuity. I could say that the Boo arc takes place between the Cell Games and Trunks' timeline. That doesn't put Trunks' timeline in the main continuity/timeline. Does it?

this point is fallacious since the boo arc doesnt happen before the events of trunks' timeline yet BOG is clearly stated to happen before GT. toriyama nor toei, would ever say something as foolish as you are trying to suggest.
no head of the series has ever used an event of a different timeline as a reference point for the main timeline. BOG didnt happen before trunks' final battle with the androids.

Boo's arc doesn't happen before the events of Trunks' timeline? What are you on about? Trunks is like 18 in his timeline. The Boo arc takes place when Trunks is 10. So yes. The events of the Boo arc does happen before the events of Trunks' timeline. And BoG did happen before Trunks' final battle with the androids too. Because Trunks is 18(physically 20 due to the RoSaT) in his timeline.

Toei has not placed it in the main continuity. I don't understand why you say this. Unless Toei literally says that it is part of the main continuity then what you're saying means nothing. If Toriyama makes Dragon Ball Super go past where GT starts I guess you're going to continue saying GT is part of the main continuity then?

toei does not literally have to say the words "GT is part of the main continuity" verbatim. they dont even have to use the word "continuity".
they just have to clarify when an event took place. the logic that you are using for your entire argument is extremely fallacious.

Your entire argument is extremely fallacious. You said "Toei puts GT in the same continuity as BOG and FnF." You can't possibly say that unless it has literally been said. Clarifying when the event took place does not mean that they must be in the same continuity. Just by saying it takes place before GT and after Z would allow fans of the story to get an accurate reference point of where this story takes place. That doesn't mean that GT has to be in the same continuity.

toeis statement has only one possible interpretation. it doesnt really matter how hard you try to weasel your way out of accepting official statements. thats something that 99% of the fanbase does already, so its not like i was expecting anything different here.

I'm sorry, but that is not the case. Like I said, just because they use GT as a reference point for when this story takes place doesn't mean it has to be part of the continuity. You can make a poll on this if you want on this site. I think you'll find that the majority of the fan base will also say what I'm saying. In fact, I'll do it for you. You're just trying to have this be true because it seems you can't stand GT being in a different continuity. Sorry, but that's what it seems like.

I've already proven without a shadow of a doubt with direct statements that BOG, FnF and GT all happen within one continuity. it isnt anyones problem but the fans if they dont want to accept it, not toeis or toriyamas. I'm done here. i dont feel having arguments with the db fanbase about continuity because no matter how much evidence is presented, they will twist it and try to create their own continuity, just as you have demonstrated.

The only "direct statement" here that isn't a really a direct statement is the whole "It happens before GT and after Z." You have literally provided no evidence whatsoever apart from something you've had an opinion on and this is just an opinion. Not a hard fact.

[Berserker1921]

Alright when goku met fusion he prob meant both in battle of gods extended cut. And I remember they did mention that goku ssj4= Vegito. Now they only mentioned that when he first appeared but thanks to zenkai boost and training goku prob became slightly stronger then SSj Vegito. It depends if Vegito became a ssj2 or just a plain SSj. We don't know. All we know is that his power was extreme. Hypothetically Vegito could have became a ssj3 with a little training. So that would increase his power to possibly twice that of ssj4.

Now even if ssj3 Vegito existed he prob would have been a 5.8/6 out 10 (pre God boost). Toriyama said in an interview that goku at SSj God was 6/10. Beerus was a 10. So with this godly boost. Goku is stronger then his gt self could ever be. Also remember in his kid form he can barley manage ssj3. Also remember when they said at his base form he was stronger then ssj3 goku at the end of the buu saga.

Goku is now at least ssj4 or close to it in his normal powered up state after absorbing the God form. Also if super rewrites this will get more info about this. So as of now goku battle of gods is stronger then kid goku. However this could change. Toriyama might nerf him. But remember they say that champa is stronger then golden Frieza so he is more or less Beerus level now. So they could actually make goku stronger by end of super.

Gt as I see it is an alternate universe if his friends never met Beerus and whis and the other gods. Or Frieza never got brought back to life

[AvatarReiko]

Exactly, if some little kids who can only go Super Saiyan can fuse and turn into a SSJ3 then why wouldn't Vegito when they're made up of a stronger, more experienced pair of which one already knows how to become a SSJ3.

It'd make no sense for them not to be able to go SSJ3.

Let's also not forget that the kids couldn't transform into a SSJ as Gotenks until after they went into the RoSaT.

They[Gotenks]never tried. What makes you think they couldn't?