Kid Goku GT vs. SSGSS Goku?

[Hitiro]

Exactly, if some little kids who can only go Super Saiyan can fuse and turn into a SSJ3 then why wouldn't Vegito when they're made up of a stronger, more experienced pair of which one already knows how to become a SSJ3.

It'd make no sense for them not to be able to go SSJ3.

Let's also not forget that the kids couldn't transform into a SSJ as Gotenks until after they went into the RoSaT.

They[Gotenks]never tried. What makes you think they couldn't?

If they could transform after fusing in base then why wouldn't they have tried when they fought Boo the first time? They did receive a pretty nasty beating which they could have avoided if they could turn SSJ.

[Bullza]

That was probably just down to comic relief.

[Hitiro]

That was probably just down to comic relief.

So is the fusion being used up when they go to fight Boo as a SSJ but that still shows the intricacies of the technique. I'm sure if they could go SSJ at this point Toriyama would have handled it differently.

[supercat]

While a good portion of discussions pertaining to power could be viewed from a subjective standpoint, I feel this one is a bit more straightforward. Even if we put SSJ4 Goku on the higher end of the spectrum and give him the benefit of having a decent amount of power over SSJ Vegetto, there is still so much room to place the former at a level that's considerably weaker than his SSGSS / SSG counterpart.

The implication I got was that even though SSG / SSGS Goku was below Beerus, in no shape or form was he even close to being as trivial as SSJ Vegetto was in comparison to Beerus. Between how well SSG Goku (BoG) held his own against the destructive feline, and how it's been stated that the former was around 60% of the latter, I'd say any form of SSG or SSGSS Goku would naturally be worlds above SSJ Vegetto.

As for SSJ4 Goku, at the very best, and speaking out of exceptional generosity here, I would say he is only three times stronger than SSJ Vegetto.

With SSG / SSGSS at his disposal, Goku should be able to utterly humiliate his GT counterpart with such ease that it makes Vegetto's victory over Buuhan look hard-earned.

[Friezacooler]

Beerus is Omega shenron level, as Omega Shenron claimed the title of god of destruction before BOG came out.

[Hugo Boss]

Omega Shenron may have claimed the title of God of Destruction, but that doesn't automatically make him as strong as Beerus. Didn't one of the episodes of anime claim that Cell was a god of destruction though it hadn't the same special conotation as how it is with Beerus?

[Low Tone G]

Omega Shenron may have claimed the title of God of Destruction, but that doesn't automatically make him as strong as Beerus. Didn't one of the episodes of anime claim that Cell was a god of destruction though it hadn't the same special conotation as how it is with Beerus?

And only those but Gotenks also.(I don't know if it was dub-only or not)

[singsing]

Omega Shenron may have claimed the title of God of Destruction, but that doesn't automatically make him as strong as Beerus. Didn't one of the episodes of anime claim that Cell was a god of destruction though it hadn't the same special conotation as how it is with Beerus?

And only those but Gotenks also.(I don't know if it was dub-only or not)

Huh? Do you mean Gotenks also said that, or what does "and only those but gotenks also" mean?

[Hitiro]

Omega Shenron may have claimed the title of God of Destruction, but that doesn't automatically make him as strong as Beerus. Didn't one of the episodes of anime claim that Cell was a god of destruction though it hadn't the same special conotation as how it is with Beerus?

And only those but Gotenks also.(I don't know if it was dub-only or not)

Huh? Do you mean Gotenks also said that, or what does "and only those but gotenks also" mean?

I think he meant to say "And not only those but Gotenks also." He's saying Gotenks also gave himself the title of God of Destruction.

[Ushabtis]

I think GT Kid Goku is actually pretty darn strong, I personally think he could go toe to toe with SSGSS Goku. But be able to defeat SSGS Goku? probably not.
---
According to Goku Reldo was stronger than Buu (which Buu...doesn't say) and Goku was giving Reldo a hard time in base form and when it got serious Goku only needed plain Super Saiyan form to fight him off. and Reldo never had the upper hand on goku in that fight. Only reason Goku got caught was because of Pan.

Spoiler:

heck Goku never took the Reldo fight too seriously anyways.

Spoiler:

So if Reldo was buu Tier strength, and Goku could fight that off as SSJ 1, that'd make Baby/Super 17/Omega Shenron much more powerful that any Buu since goku couldn't even fight off Baby in SSJ 3 form and the others villains took lots of effort to defeat. So SSJ4 must be every powerful. I also think in the time skip between EOZ and GT Goku was non-stop training with Uub. So I'd think in that heavy training he increased in power a great deal.
---
So my point.
SSGSS>SSJ4
base GT Goku>base ROF Goku

[Low Tone G]

I think he meant to say "And not only those but Gotenks also." He's saying Gotenks also gave himself the title of God of Destruction.

THX. I was misspelling there.

[h0kuten]

Goku SSJG SS would single shot essentially most versions of Goku in Dragonball GT.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

After actually doing some number crunching instead of going on a gut feeling as usual, I have Super Saiyan 4 Goku equal to Super Saiyan God Goku, and Super #17 post-10xKHH absorption equal to Whiss. So SSGSS Goku would end up stronger than SS4 Goku, not by much, though. Surpassed Limits Super Saiyan 4 Goku would single-shot Whiss, Beers, Golden Freeza, and SSGSS Goku simultaneously imo.

[Hitiro]

After actually doing some number crunching instead of going on a gut feeling as usual, I have Super Saiyan 4 Goku equal to Super Saiyan God Goku, and Super #17 post-10xKHH absorption equal to Whiss. So SSGSS Goku would end up stronger than SS4 Goku, not by much, though. Surpassed Limits Super Saiyan 4 Goku would single-shot Whiss, Beers, Golden Freeza, and SSGSS Goku simultaneously imo.

How can you do number crunching on these characters? The BoG characters have no basis for comparison compared to GT. At least with GT we can make some sort of estimation compared to their Z-selves, maybe not with the new SSJ4 transformation. But given the SSJ multipliers we are given we can get stuff like base GT Goku being above a version of Majin Boo and as a SSJ3 he'd be 400x higher than that Majin Boo. Anything else would just be a lot of assumption work.

Did you not think that Goku's SSJ multipliers are a whole lot smaller now and Goku is just increasing in strength across the story? If you believe he is above Goku Z SSJ3 tier and his multipliers are a lot smaller. He should be significantly weaker than SSJ Vegetto for most of the story. Unless he somehow gets like 50x stronger in base. What are your numbers exactly?

[h0kuten]

I don't really see why you get to decide what it has to mean. I can interpret as meaning Super Saiyan 3, many others I know do as well. It fits perfectly with everything else shown in the show.

I would have to disagree with you as well.

There is no need to include Super Saiyam 3 Vegetto. All we've seen is good ol' normal Super Saiyan. It's illogical for it to reference a non existent character.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Even if it just has to mean Super Saiyan 1 Vegetto (still don't see why other than made up arbitrary reasons) this is all the entry says:

Merging With Vegeta!
After Goku and Vegeta use a merging item to merge, they become Vegetto! They can furthermore become a Super Saiyan, making them Super Vegetto! After the two strongest people merge, they become the greatest master in the universe! Perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4!

It says Vegetto is perhaps stronger than Super Saiyan 4.

per·haps
pərˈ(h)aps/Submit
adverb
used to express uncertainty or possibility.

So, Vegetto being stronger than Super Saiyan 4 is a possibility, not a fact. Thus, one could choose to believe it or not, and I have valid reason not to believe it.

There is no need to include Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto. All we've seen is good ol' normal Super Saiyan. It's illogical for it to reference a non existent character.

You use the same reasoning to say Beers is stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto...

[h0kuten]

Even if it just has to mean Super Saiyan 1 Vegetto (still don't see why other than made up arbitrary reasons) this is all the entry says:

Merging With Vegeta!
After Goku and Vegeta use a merging item to merge, they become Vegetto! They can furthermore become a Super Saiyan, making them Super Vegetto! After the two strongest people merge, they become the greatest master in the universe! Perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4!

It says Vegetto is perhaps stronger than Super Saiyan 4.

per·haps
pərˈ(h)aps/Submit
adverb
used to express uncertainty or possibility.

So, Vegetto being stronger than Super Saiyan 4 is a possibility, not a fact. Thus, one could choose to believe it or not, and I have valid reason not to believe it.

There is no need to include Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto. All we've seen is good ol' normal Super Saiyan. It's illogical for it to reference a non existent character.

You use the same reasoning to say Beers is stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto...

Thanks for the statement.

It directly states 'Super Saiyan' Vegetto.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

No problem, and again, if it does mean Super Vegetto (still subjective), it's only a possibility. It's not definitive. So one can choose to believe it or not.

[h0kuten]

Regardless you can't escape the logic of:

Vegetto Ssj [Buu Arc]: 110
Goku Ssj4 [Baby Arc]: 100

Or

Goku Ssj4 [Baby Arc]: 110
Vegetto Ssj [Buu Arc]: 100

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

...yeah I can... Super Vegetto being in SS4 Goku's league is a possibility, not a fact.

I'd do something more like this:

Spoiler:

Gohan-Buu: 8
General Rild: 9

Base Goku: 10
SS Goku: 25
SS2 Goku: 31.25
SS3 Goku: 62.5
SS4 Goku: 600

Vegeta-Baby: 75
-Strongest Form 1: 93.75
-Strongest Form 2: 187.5
-Golden Great Ape: 625

Super Vegetto: 80
SS3 Vegetto: 640

This is if I chose to go with SS3 Vegetto being in SS4 Goku's league. I usually go back and forth on it.