but so far you've pushed forward no hard evidence that these companies use the same basic models for several of their characters.
You're not grasping the fact that, that's what I'm talking about, or what I want.
First off forget everything previously in this thead as I'm going to try and break it down more specificly so you can understand it all better.
In DOA they only use a couple of actual models (infact as far as the women go they all might be the same from the neck down not counting the breast sizes) and as a result everyone's physical body looks exactly the same. When you see Jan Lee, Hyabusa, Hayate, or the thin males they all have the same physical body from the neck down, and this is of course a con, as it makes the characters less individual/unique, and this is more so the "Barbie Doll" way of doing things, as basicly all the (thin) males and females have the same bodies with just diffrient heads.
Now I'm talking about doing is very diffrient, especialy if there's a big budget and multi-year production time. In my scenario everything would be hand tailored, the fingers, palms, forearms, biceps, shoulders, etc. It be broken in small pieces but specific to each character, however there would be instances where you could take the specifics like fingers or whatever else (when seperate) and resize them to use for multiple characters, but not for everyone, or even close for that matter. Plus I'd even go a step further and shake up the designs abit, for the better though. For instance I'd try to make every character specific as possible, like diffirient heights, weights, builds, skintones, etc, to try and make everyone fairly unique in their own right. I actually have a number of designs drawn up showing how to do this from just strictly a 2D standpoint.
When finished with the physical parts you'd then put them together per character, like all of Goku's parts together, of Vegeta's parts together, etc, kinda like a puzzle, and you'd have a nude model for the most part, but one far more advanced then what you see in stuff like DOA. For example being that every part was done/animated seperate you easily do things like having muscles flex or bulge when charging or transforming. Then of course you'd move onto the clothing. Animating things like Goku's vest and shirt seperately, and every other article of clothing that's existed throughout the series, and again just like with the physical bodies some of these things could be resized to use for various characters, but not everything. The clothing would also get the same treatment as the bodies, making things more specfic per character, rather then having so many things repeat.
So in the end you're still building everything from the ground up and with lots of specifics, while producing a better end result in terms of graphics, presentation, etc. Like I'm trying to push DB/Z/GT within gaming form to it's maximum potential, or the best it can achieve. Where as the models of today, while all diffrient in style they're all exactly the same in the end, and no matter how good they make them look doing them this way, they're just going to toss them aside rather then trying to better them. It's as if they never learn from their mistakes.
Another way I'm looking at it is to the point where you'd push it as far as it can/could go and never have to produce a new set of models (or whatever) ever again for DB/Z/GT, unless their was a spefic need to do it another style. I mean basicly I want something that is like Smash Brothers where you only need it once a generation of console, like it's just made so well that there's really no way to improve upon it till the next generation of gaming.
Isn't the Wii the biggest breakthrough in gaming history? Isn't the Wii all about presenting us a new form of gaming? If next-gen is all about fancy graphics, then I wouldn't mind next-gen... but I find Nintendo's new form of playing more appealing than the same old games with shinier graphics. But all in all, the Wii offers more change than it's rivals do.
I was just talking about the Wii in terms of graphics/power.
I'm well aware of it's technological improvements, and I know they're great and all that too, but that's not what I was making a point about, like I wasn't talking about the Wii as a overall console there, only as in what it can achieve in terms of graphics.
I know that makes me sound like a graphics whore, but I'm not, it's just a specifc example.
Hand crafted models are mediocre?
Compared the "best" that's out there.
Think of what's the most amazing or best graphical model you've ever seen. Now compare EVERYTHING else against that, ie "the best" and you're telling me the stuff you've seen on FPS forums isn't mediocre compared to what you've seen from Pixar or Square, or whoever.
Now you may say that's a very stupid way to look things, or not the way you should compare things, but in reality it is, because you can at least acknowledge whats the best out there (that you've seen) and just maybe it'll give you a better outlook on everything else, or may help to not be so biased, or help in terms of specifcs, or whatever else.
This infact is how a lot of major reviewers look at games. I mean a lot of people seem to be totaly clueless as to how reviewers look at games, but basicly they're comparing something to the best that's out there. Like if they've played a game with better graphics, a better camera, better gameplay, etc, they will always take note of that because basicly they know the possibility of it being able to be better exists. Like when you look at the DBZ fighters you can always see tons of things that can be improved apon where as when you play something like Twighlight Princess (or whatever is highly regarded) they basicly got it right/perfect, or there's very little to improve upon in comparision to what's already there or good or great.
Sure there is, barbie dolls for dull old NPCs in a huge RPG, and unique models for main characters and monsters. =D
But we should be past that point in gaming now days, because 99% of the games out there are like that, where as they really need to start taking a more Shenmue like approach trying to make everything as unique as possible.
Another example for NPCs would be to develop a random face generator for whatever game, because even though you might see a lot of the same clothing/outfits, at least their faces would all be unique from one another. This would work really well for things like Metal Gear Solid, Tenchu, etc, where they sortta have to use the same enemy units over and over again, but at least with a random face generator it give them a uniqueness so that it wouldn't just be the same exact model over and over again.
Well, you were the one that brought DoA up in the first place.
Yes as a single example, because it was the most famous example, and/or I didn't want to list off 20 other things that some people might not know of.
If you're going to use something as an example it should actually be a noteworthy benchmark.
No, it should be the most famous example if you want more people to understand what you're talking about, where as if you bring up what did it the "best" there's a good chance a majority haven't experienced it. For instance I bet you there's more people that have experienced DOA then whatever does it the best in terms of games.
But please, do point me some games that do the fabric and hair over bald nude models perfectly. =D
Maybe first you should think of how many DBZ/Z/GT characters that have straight hair that would be required for in terms of a fighting game.
But if you want a game that does it right, then check out Final Fantasy XIII.
In games there is no such thing, the game can't anticipate what the played will do and render the right cloth or hair animations a split second in advance.
Liar.
Square-Enix's new White Engine is specificly designed to produce graphics that look and move like those found in the FMVs they use in games and/or Advent Children, and it's not really a suprise coming from Square, or if you check out the FFXIII teaser (which has confirmed to be in real time) you can see how perfectly it looks, flows, etc.
But of course this is another example of me looking at the maximum potential of games, where as you're just looking at what's been done or more specficly current-gen.
Ah, but that irks me about Capcom, they have these wonderful "from scratch" sprites alongside old ones.
That's because they couldn't re-animate them all from scratch without it turning into a incredibly long process or a financial nightmare.
Capcom stated that it took them like 3 months to do just one of those redrawn spirtes in the CvS games.
And while it may irk you, I on the otherhand totaly understand why it is the way it is, and as a result better accept it.
After Capcom released Street Fighter 3 in the mid 90's, they noticed something very important. Despite the fact that the game had the best animation quality of a 2D fighting game ever (and it still does, I'll explain later) it did not sell, or do as well as it should've in their eyes, and there are two theories as to why this was.
1) Fans did not accept the new characters in favor of the classic SF2 chars, and/or did not like the fact that there were praticaly no returning characters from SF2. Infact originaly SF3 wasn't going to include any returning characters (not even Ryu or Ken) but after fans complained and literaly sent Capcom death threats they added Ryu and Ken in the first SF3 game, and as a result toned down Sean (who was supposed to be the only Ansastusken user in the game) which ended up making Sean a joke character, and of course they also added Akuma (2nd Impact) and Chun Li (3rd Strike) later on, but it still didn't make the game as successful as Capcom wanted.
2) The SF3 games were released alongside or within the same timeframe as the Alpha games and Marvel games, and as a result SF3 was completely overshadowed.
In the end though it was most likely a combination of 1&2.
As for SF3 having the best animation out there of any 2D fighter, this is a result of how SF3 was all hand animated at 60fps on large animation cels, etc, so in the end SF3 has this very amazing flow in terms of animation. For instance just look at the way Ryu's gi flows in just his standing animation.
Now I've noticed a lot of people say
Guilty Gear X has the best animation out there and I even thought this for awhile too until someone explained to me how SF3 was made in comparision to GGX, and that what I actually considered "better" was infact the style in which GGX was done, because when you actually compare the actual animation (frames, movements, etc) between the spirtes SF3s are more fluid, but they don't have as much detail on them on the GGX sprites. This is somewhat similar when you compare Japanese animation to American (more specficly Disney) now while Japanese animation is almost always more detailed then stuff from Disney, Disney's stuff (or some of the stuff Dreamworks did) is animated better, like in the way the characters move, but then again this can be countered by the fact that Disney would use more frames then needed or they would over exaggerate character movements (like always keeping a character moving so that the viewer would never loose intrest on them)
So obviously, while some sprites were ported they had to do a lot of things "from scratch" since it was running on brand new and vastly different hardware. Q.E.D.
One, it still doesn't make it from scratch, and two the transfer is easier to do then you think.
also, show me a game with acknowledged handcrafted models that were berated by fans, critics and reviewers alike?
Uhm the recent/PS2 DBZ fighting games at one point or another.
I find that the recent Dragonball Z games look pleasing on the eyes.
Yeah and thus don't want anything diffrient, or don't think it can be better, or whatever else.
I honestly don't see anything wrong with the Dragonball Z games we've been getting in recent years.
Then you are totaly biased or bline if you don't notice things like
- All the pixels/jaggies
- Bad hit ditection
- In Sparking there were no IGTs and everyone played exactly the same
- In Budokai 1 we saw like 100 character models in the Story Mode that could've been used as extra costumes or extra characters, but never were.
- In the US version of B2 where Cell was permenatly in his Perfect form yet he retained his Imperfect voice.
- Mis-Colorings (skin, clothing, hair, moves, etc)
- The fact that they only recently started giving the option to switch between voices, when it could've been done all along.
- The first game in whatever series can never get it right.
- Each game's development is only less then a year.
- Only 12 characters to use in B3's Dragon Universe.
I seriously could list like 100 more things but that's enough.
Oh and if there's "nothing" wrong with them then why do they make sequels, or add/change things in the sequels?
And I'm sure I'm not the only one as DBZ games manage to sell rather well these days.
So do EA games, and a lot of other crap, but that doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with them, or they're good.
And reviews have skyrocketed since the days of Ultimate Battle 22 or Final Bout.
You mean the days when most of the current fans had no clue what DBZ/GT was?
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WOW.
They actually look like real jeans now, not pasted on ones.
I hope that's the kind of quality I can expect from whatever dbz games are released for the next-generation systems.
Thank you, at least someone else here likes improvement, or evolution, and wants to see more in the future.
Just look at the pretty Smash Bros. picture! Wooo, go Sheik!
