Kid Goku GT vs. SSGSS Goku?

[singsing]

There would be no need to make the comparison in the first place if the two were not close in power, I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this.

It'd be nonsensical to say "perhaps even greater than SS4" if Vegetto was much weaker, the comparison would be unnecessary, ridiculous and would just be there to purposefully try to fool fans. It's obvious that's not the case. You may go by your official definitions, but context is what's important here.

As I said, it could be speculation. There's nothing in the actual show indicating that and a lot indicating the opposite.

There would be no need to use the word "perhaps" if it was definitive. They would just say "even stronger than Super Saiyan 4!"

That's the entire point. It's not definitive. It's very close. That's why they used perhaps, and that's what multiple people have been trying to explain for the past two pages. There's literally no other reason to use the word "perhaps" in the context of the English language when Vegetto is in fact multiple magnitudes of order weaker than SSJ4 Goku. Thus, the only logical interpretation is they're so close it's too hard to tell. You love pulling up Occam's razor, and this is a great time to use it against you. You're making more assumptions.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Speculation holds no place in a guidebook, all information has a purpose. Using the word perhaps just indicates their powers are so similar it's hard to tell them apart. Like I said, the comparison would be unnecessary if they didn't want to put Vegetto at SS4's level.

It wasn't a guidebook, it was an anime comic with tidbits on information, if I recall correctly.

There would be no point in using "perhaps" if it was definitive. There have been examples of powers being very close, yet still getting confirmation without using the word "perhaps"

Now which form of Vegetto is still up to interpretation, of course.

Well, no. Going by Hitiro's arbitrary rules. It can't mean SS2/3 Vegetto, because that'd make you a biased GT fanboy.

The fact that they go through the effort of saying it is a possibility must mean that they think they are fairly close. If Vegetto was much weaker than SSJ4 why even say that it is possibility? At the end of the day their sentiment is based off their perception of the two characters they are the ones that developed GT. They could just outright state SSJ4 is superior if they want. Because as you said the sentiment is based off nothing. There is no reason for them to assume something based off nothing unless they are trying to say the characters are fairly close. If I were the staff on GT I would just be like "Well, we'll just make SSJ4 massively stronger than SSJ Vegetto. There is no way to compare the two characters anyway."

We know this information is directly from the writers of the series because...?

Again, the comment could just be uneducated speculation.

That's the entire point. It's not definitive. It's very close. That's why they used perhaps, and that's what multiple people have been trying to explain for the past two pages. There's literally no other reason to use the word "perhaps" in the context of the English language when Vegetto is in fact multiple magnitudes of order weaker than SSJ4 Goku. Thus, the only logical interpretation is they're so close it's too hard to tell.

Yet we have an instance where two people were very close, yet we get direct confirmation without using the word "perhaps".

You love pulling up Occam's razor, and this is a great time to use it against you. You're making more assumptions.

And I am making more assumptions how...? You guys are saying it has to mean they are close in power, saying it can only be interpreted that way.

[h0kuten]

It can't be interpreted another way if Vegetto Ssj is perhaps stronger than Goku Ssj4.

They wouldn't say perhaps if Vegetto was a 50 and Goku was a 100.
They say perhaps because Vegetto is probably a 80-90 to Goku's 100.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Or they say perhaps because it's just speculation?

This is tiring now, I'm not going back and forth with multiple different people just to repeatedly see:

"Perhaps" has to mean they're close in power. Fact. You can't interpret it another way, that's just an assumption!

[Hitiro]

We know this information is directly from the writers of the series because...?

I don't see how GT staff wouldn't be involved in an anime comic of the GT special. Naho Ooishi and Toyotarō have been in contact with Akira Toriyama when they were developing story stuff. This anime comic came along with the GT Special too if I recall. So why would people totally unrelated to the GT staff be making things to sell with something the GT staff worked on in a collection?

That's the entire point. It's not definitive. It's very close. That's why they used perhaps, and that's what multiple people have been trying to explain for the past two pages. There's literally no other reason to use the word "perhaps" in the context of the English language when Vegetto is in fact multiple magnitudes of order weaker than SSJ4 Goku. Thus, the only logical interpretation is they're so close it's too hard to tell.

Yet we have an instance where two people were very close, yet we get direct confirmation without using the word "perhaps".

I don't see what bearing this has on anything really. The problem here is the word "perhaps" has only been used for characters who are fairly close in strength. If you can show a statement where "perhaps" has been used when the two characters aren't close in strength then fair enough. Just because we see an instance of two people very close in power not having the word "perhaps" used doesn't mean that there must be an instance of two people not close in power having the word "perhaps" used.

You love pulling up Occam's razor, and this is a great time to use it against you. You're making more assumptions.

And I am making more assumptions how...? You guys are saying it has to mean they are close in power, saying it can only be interpreted that way.

Aren't you making more assumptions?

Perhaps used for fairly close:

1. Used because the characters are so close in power it his hard to determine who is stronger.

Perhaps not used for fairly close:

1. Just a speculation by the people who made the information.
2. There is no basis for the information.
3. Didn't opt for making one character stronger than the other because(? I don't know your reason. Could they not just say outright which one is stronger if they are just speculating?)

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

If you for some reason ignored the post above, I am not going back and forth with multiple people with 100 different quotes arguing what "perhaps" has to mean for this statement.

It's tiring just seeing you saying Perhaps has to mean this because I say so! over and over.

(Could they not just say outright which one is stronger if they are just speculating?)

Uh, no? The whole point of saying "perhaps" is because it's a possibility / uncertainty... if they're not certain they wouldn't just outright say who's stronger..

[Hitiro]

If you for some reason ignored the post above, I am not going back and forth with multiple people with 100 different quotes arguing what "perhaps" has to mean for this statement.

It's tiring just seeing you saying Perhaps has to mean this because I say so! over and over.

(Could they not just say outright which one is stronger if they are just speculating?)

Uh, no? The whole point of saying "perhaps" is because it's a possibility / uncertainty... if they're not certain they wouldn't just outright say who's stronger..

Why? You said there is no information for it. They can make up what they want. Like Akira Toriyama can. "I'd say if Goku is a 6 then Beerus is a 10 and Whis is a 15." < That's an asspull if ever I saw one. Nothing had been established so he could do this. Why couldn't they do it with SSJ4 Goku and Vegetto? Like singsing said, your point has the most assumptions.

[h0kuten]

Or they say perhaps because it's just speculation?

This is tiring now, I'm not going back and forth with multiple different people just to repeatedly see:

"Perhaps" has to mean they're close in power. Fact. You can't interpret it another way, that's just an assumption!

Maybe if multiple different people say you're wrong... you probably are? Lol

[singsing]

Uh, no? The whole point of saying "perhaps" is because it's a possibility / uncertainty... if they're not certain they wouldn't just outright say who's stronger..

If they weren't in the same league it'd be quite clear and easily certain. If they're in the same league then they're not certain and cannot say who is the stronger of the two. That's simple logic.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Why? You said there is no information for it. They can make up what they want. Like Akira Toriyama can. "I'd say if Goku is a 6 then Beerus is a 10 and Whis is a 15." < That's an asspull if ever I saw one. Nothing had been established so he could do this. Why couldn't they do it with SSJ4 Goku and Vegetto? Like singsing said, your point has the most assumptions

Because Toriyama is the author of the series and wrote BOG. The people who made that tidbit don't have to be (we can't be sure they are, anyway) the people who wrote the plot/dialogue for GT.

There's also evidence in the actual show suggesting otherwise.

Maybe if multiple different people say you're wrong... you probably are? Lol

And I can find literally just as many people to say SVB1 > Super Vegetto, would that make everyone here wrong?

[h0kuten]

Uh, no? The whole point of saying "perhaps" is because it's a possibility / uncertainty... if they're not certain they wouldn't just outright say who's stronger..

If they weren't in the same league it'd be quite clear and easily certain. If they're in the same league then they're not certain and cannot say who is the stronger of the two. That's simple logic.

This.

[Hitiro]

Why? You said there is no information for it. They can make up what they want. Like Akira Toriyama can. "I'd say if Goku is a 6 then Beerus is a 10 and Whis is a 15." < That's an asspull if ever I saw one. Nothing had been established so he could do this. Why couldn't they do it with SSJ4 Goku and Vegetto? Like singsing said, your point has the most assumptions

Because Toriyama is the author of the series and wrote BOG. The people who made that tidbit don't have to be (we can't be sure they are, anyway) the people who wrote the plot/dialogue for GT.

There's also evidence in the actual show suggesting otherwise.

Where is the evidence in the show exactly? If this were the case why haven't they just outright said that Vegetto is weaker than SSJ4 Goku? If you're on about SBV1 saying he's achieved the strongest Saiya power that really means nothing as it's been pointed out multiple times you don't reference someone who doesn't exist any more. If everyone dies on Earth except me I can claim to be the strongest human. There is nothing disagreeing with that statement because any potential rivals who could be stronger than me cease to exist. If anything Bebi Vegeta prior to becoming SBV1 was "Perhaps greater than SSJ3 Goku" and that only changed after he powered up to SBV1.

Maybe if multiple different people say you're wrong... you probably are? Lol

And I can find literally just as many people to say SVB1 > Super Vegetto, would that make everyone here wrong?

I'm pretty sure if you made a poll about this you would probably find that the majority would claim otherwise. I'm purely speculating here but I'd say over 70% of the people here would be incline to agree that Super Vegetto > SBV1.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Where is the evidence in the show exactly? If this were the case why haven't they just outright said that Vegetto is weaker than SSJ4 Goku? If you're on about SBV1 saying he's achieved the strongest Saiya power that really means nothing as it's been pointed out multiple times you don't reference someone who doesn't exist any more. If everyone dies on Earth except me I can claim to be the strongest human. There is nothing disagreeing with that statement because any potential rivals who could be stronger than me cease to exist. If anything Bebi Vegeta prior to becoming SBV1 was "Perhaps greater than SSJ3 Goku" and that only changed after he powered up to SBV1.

Well yes, that is evidence. He was stronger than every other Saiyan before by a noticeable degree and then he only gets the greatest of Saiyan power when he transforms.

Also, there's evidence Gohan-Buu was surpassed SVB1, which would leave only Vegetto left to be surpassed when Goku alls SVB1 the greatest Ki he's ever felt.

I'm pretty sure if you made a poll about this you would probably find that the majority would claim otherwise. I'm purely speculating here but I'd say over 70% of the people here would be incline to agree that Super Vegetto > SBV1.

And I'm sure if you went to sites like Shinden, DBZF, Neoseeker, and DBZeta, the majority would agree SVB1 > Super Vegetto. I used to be one who argued SS4 Goku was stronger than SS Vegetto, and I was convinced otherwise.

[Hitiro]

Where is the evidence in the show exactly? If this were the case why haven't they just outright said that Vegetto is weaker than SSJ4 Goku? If you're on about SBV1 saying he's achieved the strongest Saiya power that really means nothing as it's been pointed out multiple times you don't reference someone who doesn't exist any more. If everyone dies on Earth except me I can claim to be the strongest human. There is nothing disagreeing with that statement because any potential rivals who could be stronger than me cease to exist. If anything Bebi Vegeta prior to becoming SBV1 was "Perhaps greater than SSJ3 Goku" and that only changed after he powered up to SBV1.

Well yes, that is evidence. He was stronger than every other Saiyan before by a noticeable degree and then he only gets the greatest of Saiyan power when he transforms.

It is evidence that he currently has the strongest Saiya power. That does not need to include previous Saiyan's. A boxer who has the world title is considered the best boxer in the world. That doesn't mean that there weren't better world title holders than him previously.

Also, there's evidence Gohan-Buu was surpassed SVB1, which would leave only Vegetto left to be surpassed when Goku alls SVB1 the greatest Ki he's ever felt.

Where is this evidence exactly?

I'm pretty sure if you made a poll about this you would probably find that the majority would claim otherwise. I'm purely speculating here but I'd say over 70% of the people here would be incline to agree that Super Vegetto > SBV1.

And I'm sure if you went to sites like Shinden, DBZF, Neoseeker, and DBZeta, the majority would agree SVB1 > Super Vegetto. I used to be one who argued SS4 Goku was stronger than SS Vegetto, and I was convinced otherwise.

I honestly highly doubt that. And I don't think you need to go to those sites just to have that poll because a lot of the people on there are people in these forums. And you are still arguing that SSJ4 Goku is superior to Super Vegetto? Or did you mean you used to argue Super Vegetto is stronger than SSJ4 Goku? Because I would honestly like to see the discussion that changed your opinion, if only to see what argument was made. Because it seems, if you are basing your argument on what they said, that it isn't a strong one. I'm also struggling to believe you were arguing what I, and the majority of this thread, are arguing because you have been using some pretty reaching statements. Like the whole SSJ3 Vegetto being a similar level to SSJ4 Goku. If they had meant that then they would have made it much more clear. There really is no indication that this would be the case, at best we can say they are on about Super Vegetto because we know for a fact that Vegetto can reach this form without additional training. I mean if we are going to argue hypothetical transformations then we could just say they are on about SSJ4 Vegetto in this statement because we know he could become SSJ4 with Bulma's Blutz wave machine. They would honestly never make a statement as vague as to include a transformation they haven't reached.

If you can't see this then I honestly don't believe you were arguing Super Vegetto > SSJ4 Goku at some point in time.

[Friezacooler]

Nice try lol, http://i.imgur.com/dli02Yx.jpg

[Saiyan007]

Just like the SSJ4 Gogeta & Freeza thread

Gt characters don't have the speed anywhere close to keep up with the God tier characters

[Friezacooler]

Just like the SSJ4 Gogeta & Freeza thread

Gt characters don't have the speed anywhere close to keep up with the God tier characters

And you basing that on? Show me were toei, Akira Toriyama or any of the episodes or sources are making claims that god tier characters are superior to "GT" characters speed wise lol.

[Saiyan007]

Just like the SSJ4 Gogeta & Freeza thread

Gt characters don't have the speed anywhere close to keep up with the God tier characters

And you basing that on? Show me were toei, Akira Toriyama or any of the episodes or sources are making claims that god tier characters are superior to "GT" characters speed wise lol.

based on the fact Beerus flew several thousand light years in under 2 mins in DBSuper ep 2

Gt characters may be FTL but not to that degree

[Polyphase Avatron]

Personally I don't find it very convincing when people make assumptions about distance and such and then try to apply it across the board to other characters, based on a single instance.

I always considered Whis' travel to be pretty much as fast as the plot required it to be, as I really don't think there is any kind of consistent speed for it. The same goes for Beerus I guess. So saying they are so much faster than everyone in GT based on this particular interpretation seems very iffy.

Of course I do think they are stronger than GT characters.

[supercat]

It's not even about speed and/or other visual feats. Although quite subtle, there were a handful of hints throughout GT and BoG that basically point towards GT characters (with the exclusion of SSJ4 Gogeta) being below Beerus.

While pure speculation at this point, I still find feasibility behind these theories.

Simply put, when I consider the following points, things begin to make a lot more sense.

-SSJ Vegetto was leagues below Beerus but considered somewhere near SSJ4 Goku.

-SSG Goku was on fighting terms with Beerus. Therefore, it's safe to assume that SSG Goku also far outshines SSJ Vegetto / SSJ4 Goku.

-SSJ4 Goku (who I feel is superior to SSJ Vegetto, but worlds below Beerus) was able to endure the devastating attacks of Omega Shenron. Meaning, the gap between the dragon and SSJ4 Goku, was likely a good amount smaller than the gap between SSJ Vegetto and Beerus. Although I consider SSJ4 Goku a decent amount above SSJ Vegetto, due to the large gap between the latter and Beerus, I'm inclined to believe that the mighty dragon is weaker than the destructive feline. If SSJ4 Goku was put in the unfortunate circumstance of having to take on Beerus, unlike how his fight with Omega Shenron went, he likely would have been one-shotted or beat down in a matter of seconds.

-If SSJ Vegetto was even 40-50% of Beerus, Goku would have seriously considered taking the route of fusion.

-SSJ4 Gogeta was able to toy with Omega Shenron, but Whis was able to completely stop Beerus in his tracks with a mere chop. With that, it's seems pretty plausible to me that Whis is at the very least marginally stronger than SSJ4 Gogeta.

Based on those points, the following numbers sound about right to me:

Whis: 15
SSJ4 Gogeta: 14
Beerus: 10
Omega Shenron 8 - 8.5
Golden Frieza: 8
SSGSS Goku / SSGSS Vegeta: 7.5
SSG Goku (BoG): 6
Super 17 (energy absorbed): 5.5
SSJ4 Goku: 4.5
SSJ Vegetto: 2 - 2.5