Kid Goku GT vs. SSGSS Goku?

[Hitiro]

they used the fusion dance,goku and vegeta used the potaras,since that fusion would permanent, maybe they got some boost after they separated.

the fusion boost is the only thing that makes the anime coherent. ssj goku was ultimate gohan tier and able to to be sensed in other world when he powered up (only ssj3 and super buu did it).

remember: anime kid buu > gohan buu and maybe anime kid buu > ssj vegetto.the anime gave a "hint" of that,gohan buu only gave vegetto some trouble after he used his power from "inside".

The issue with this is that the SSJ4 fusion dance also "apparently" gave them a boost in GT. So why would both fusions only give Goku and Vegeta boosts? If the fusion dance gave Goku and Vegeta a boost in GT then the same thing should be said for Goten and Trunks. And if fusions could increase their strength like this I think it would have been stated too.

[dragonballer]

they used the fusion dance,goku and vegeta used the potaras,since that fusion would permanent, maybe they got some boost after they separated.

the fusion boost is the only thing that makes the anime coherent. ssj goku was ultimate gohan tier and able to to be sensed in other world when he powered up (only ssj3 and super buu did it).

remember: anime kid buu > gohan buu and maybe anime kid buu > ssj vegetto.the anime gave a "hint" of that,gohan buu only gave vegetto some trouble after he used his power from "inside".

The issue with this is that the SSJ4 fusion dance also "apparently" gave them a boost in GT. So why would both fusions only give Goku and Vegeta boosts? If the fusion dance gave Goku and Vegeta a boost in GT then the same thing should be said for Goten and Trunks. And if fusions could increase their strength like this I think it would have been stated too.

i don't remember any boost after the fusion,since they were still easily beaten.can you remember some line that said they were stronger?

if GT just made fusion boost canon ( if considering GT canon ),i can't help it,it is GT after alll...

[Hitiro]

i don't remember any boost after the fusion,since they were still easily beaten.can you remember some line that said they were stronger?

if GT just made fusion boost canon ( if considering GT canon ),i can't help it,it is GT after alll...

The comment was made to me that SSJ4 Goku and SSJ4 Vegeta were stronger after the fusion dance so perhaps the Potara fusion worked the same way. I honestly don't remember much of anything about GT, you'd have to ask Friezacooler who stated it.

Unless Kid Buu, Vegeta and Goku have become even stronger cause of the effects of the fusion, just like when Goku ssj4 and Vegeta defused from Gogeta ssj4. their power has risen to match Syn/ Omega Shenron if I remember.

But like I said, if that much of a power increase happened between the 3 characters it would have definitely been mentioned.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

They weren't stronger after the fusion dance. If anything, weaker, since fusing was using their energy. I'm pretty sure Trunks even comments on it.

[supercat]

It really wouldn't make sense not to elaborate on the fact that Rild was stronger than Buu plus four other fighters, considering how the vast majority of Buuhan's power primarily consisted of Gohan.

Excluding BoG and FnF, Uub (EoZ) is probably not even Perfect Cell tier, considering how badly he struggled against Base Goku. My guess is that the kid is somewhere in the realm of Imperfect Cell and possibly Semi-perfect Cell tier on the exceptionally high end. In fact, Base Goku (EoZ) sitting somewhere in the neighborhood of Imperfect Cell sounds quite feasible, considering how the Saiyan was still notably below Freeza in the Buu arc.

I feel the time that Uub takes his brave stand against Super Baby Vegeta 2, is when he's finally realized his full potential of reaching Kid Buu tier.

If Base Rild truly wielded a power greater than Buuhan's, Base Gohan would have been one-shotted. However, even after taking several hits from the machine mutant, Gohan is alive and well. One could even argue that he was unscathed.

Super Baby Vegeta was asking for power from his Tuffles. A completely different source of energy from Saiyan power.

Regardless, Gohan-Boo is still "Boo" in Goku's mind, and everyone else's mind. Goku's words not matching yours isn't proof of Rild's power being below Gohan-Boo's.

EOZ Oob is debatable / subjective, so I won't touch that.

Oob at the Beginning of GT should be at least as strong as Pure Boo, in my opinion. Goku waited 15 years to have his rematch with Oob (Pure Boo's reincarnation) and, IMO, it's silly for him to finish Oob's training with Oob ending up multiple times weaker than Pure Boo. When has Goku ever settled for less than what he was expecting?

So Base Goku could potentially be around or above Pure Boo, then it's shown via feats and statements that he gets a huge increase in space where he surpasses his initial Super Saiyan form in base.

Why would Base Gohan be one-shotted if Rild was stronger than Gohan-Boo? Gotenks-Boo was initially using full effort against Gohan when they fought, and Gohan was managing to survive. Then we know he trained for at least 5 years, to at least maintain his strength or make small improvements. Him lasting against someone around Gohan-Boo makes sense.

The energy that fueled him to become Super Baby Vegeta 2 didn't consist of Saiyan energy, so it's definitely not Saiyan power.

But Super Vegeta-Baby 2 himself is still a Saiyan, so he'd be a "Saiyan power".

Also, Vegeta-Baby says he's not obtained the greatest of Saiyan powers, not greatest possible Saiyan power.

How Goku perceives Buuhan could also be evaluated from a subjected standpoint. However, if a large percentage of a fighter's power comes from another being, then it's at least worth acknowledging that source of power. I could understand abstaining from mentioning fighters who make a minute difference, but in the case of Buuhan, nearly all of his power was obtained from Gohan.

Buu's name was likely dropped for the purpose of hyping Rild up as a new villain. Therefore, if the Machine Mutant was indeed stronger than Buuhan, it would have made so much more sense to include Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks to amplify that effect. Without such a mention, there's no proof that Base Rild, or even Final Form Rild for that matter is stronger than Buuhan.

Kid Buu came chronologically after Buuhan, yet people have no problem accepting the fact that he's weaker than his previous counterparts.

Well regardless of where Uub ended up, seeing as how Goku was merely fighting in base form, it appeared the Saiyan couldn't get his long awaited fight after all. Not fighting in his strongest forms (SSJ3, or at the very least SSJ2) seems a lot like settling for less to me.

Goku's feats in space merely consisted of taking out some aliens and a giant robot with unknown (likely not very impressive) power levels. Considering how beings like Frieza and Kid Buu were considered the top tiered threats of the universe, I'd be exceptionally surprised if random aliens like Ledgic and Mutchy were anything special. Perfect Cell (against Goku) tier seems like a good level to place the two actually.

Buuhan is a different beast compared to Buutenks. Throw on even more power on top of that, and there's no way Base Gohan would be able to stand up to that kind of fighter the way he did against Base Rild. In any case, I still don't think GT Base Gohan = Ultimate Gohan (Z). While I can acknowledge the fact that Gohan has gotten stronger since Z, I also think he has now found a way to tap into higher levels of power by turning SSJ rather than strictly relying on his Ultimate form. He's also likely retained the amazing power boost from Baby.

The whole context behind what Baby said about the greatest Saiyan power could be viewed subjectively. Even if we do assume he literally has obtained the greatest of Saiyan power, there's no reason that should include Vegetto. For one, Vegetto, wasn't around, and two, how would Baby even know the specific realm of power Vegetto was sitting in? I personally feel it's a bit far-fetched to assume Vegetto is automatically grouped into that little remark.

Regardless, Super Baby Vegeta being above SSJ Vegetto doesn't seem too relevant, as that would not automatically mean SSJ4 Goku is in a completely different league as SSJ Vegetto. SSJ4 Goku having only a moderate advantage in power over his fusion counterpart makes a lot of sense.

[Methuselah]

They weren't stronger after the fusion dance. If anything, weaker, since fusing was using their energy. I'm pretty sure Trunks even comments on it.

Yeah, he does.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Buu's name was likely dropped for the purpose of hyping Rild up as a new villain. Therefore, if the Machine Mutant was indeed stronger than Buuhan, it would have made so much more sense to include Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks to amplify that effect. Without such a mention, there's no proof that Base Rild, or even Final Form Rild for that matter is stronger than Buuhan.

There's no "proof" for any form, but there's evidence for Boo's higher forms. The only evidence supporting Goku's comparison being to Pure/Mr. Boo is... nothing I can recall at the moment.

Kid Buu came chronologically after Buuhan, yet people have no problem accepting the fact that he's weaker than his previous counterparts.

This was so Goku could handle the final villain, there's no such need in GT's case since they can make Goku however strong they like.

Well regardless of where Uub ended up, seeing as how Goku was merely fighting in base form, it appeared the Saiyan couldn't get his long awaited fight after all. Not fighting in his strongest forms (SSJ3, or at the very least SSJ2) seems a lot like settling for less to me.

Perhaps because his base form was enough to match Oob's power? What is the logic behind Goku waiting 10 years training waiting for the rematch he wants, spend 5 years training Oob, and then ending his training when Oob doesn't come close to Goku's original expectations?

Goku's feats in space merely consisted of taking out some aliens and a giant robot with unknown (likely not very impressive) power levels. Considering how beings like Freeza and Kid Buu were considered the top tiered threats of the universe, I'd be exceptionally surprised if random aliens like Ledgic and Mutchy were anything special. Perfect Cell (against Goku) tier seems like a good level to place the two actually.

Unless Goku as a Super Saiyan was suppressed far down below his maximum base power (burden of proof would rest on you), then each of the individual Sigmas are above Goku's initial SS form.

Buuhan is a different beast compared to Buutenks. Throw on even more power on top of that, and there's no way Base Gohan would be able to stand up to that kind of fighter the way he did against Base Rild. In any case, I still don't think GT Base Gohan = Ultimate Gohan (Z). While I can acknowledge the fact that Gohan has gotten stronger since Z, I also think he has now found a way to tap into higher levels of power by turning SSJ rather than strictly relying on his Ultimate form. He's also likely retained the amazing power boost from Baby.

Why is there "no way"? What's that rule based on? Also, why would Ultimate be a form? It's just all of his hidden power drawn out. It's like saying Guru's boost for Krillin was a form, or like saying Vegeta's "Majin boost" was a form. On top of this, if it was a form, or even just power up, why would Gohan lose it? When has training ever resulted in someone losing power? Where does the train of thought of Gohan being weaker in GT stem from? The only information we have on him is he trained. How would his base end up weaker than his Ultimate?

The whole context behind what Baby said about the greatest Saiyan power could be viewed subjectively. Even if we do assume he literally has obtained the greatest of Saiyan power, there's no reason that should include Vegetto. For one, Vegetto, wasn't around, and two, how would Baby even know the specific realm of power Vegetto was sitting in? I personally feel it's a bit far-fetched to assume Vegetto is automatically grouped into that little remark.

Because Goku and Vegeta have memories of being Vegetto, and Baby stated he has Vegeta's memories. He was stronger than Goku by a fair amount before transforming, so if he only obtains the greatest of Saiyan power after transforming, there has to be someone in between those two forms to surpass.

[Lord Gogeta]

In Dragonball Xenoverse
Beerus is impressed by Gogeta's power.
And SSJ4 Gogeta says he can maybe beat Lord Beerus.

That shows alone that Gods are far above Ying Xing Long
And can even beat SSJ4 Gogeta.

Xenoverse was supervised and approved by Akira Toriyama.

Although it would be great to find a guide that specifies Who is stronger between A God and SSJ4 Gogeta

[supercat]

Buu's name was likely dropped for the purpose of hyping Rild up as a new villain. Therefore, if the Machine Mutant was indeed stronger than Buuhan, it would have made so much more sense to include Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks to amplify that effect. Without such a mention, there's no proof that Base Rild, or even Final Form Rild for that matter is stronger than Buuhan.

There's no "proof" for any form, but there's evidence for Boo's higher forms. The only evidence supporting Goku's comparison being to Pure/Mr. Boo is... nothing I can recall at the moment.

Kid Buu came chronologically after Buuhan, yet people have no problem accepting the fact that he's weaker than his previous counterparts.

This was so Goku could handle the final villain, there's no such need in GT's case since they can make Goku however strong they like.

Well regardless of where Uub ended up, seeing as how Goku was merely fighting in base form, it appeared the Saiyan couldn't get his long awaited fight after all. Not fighting in his strongest forms (SSJ3, or at the very least SSJ2) seems a lot like settling for less to me.

Perhaps because his base form was enough to match Oob's power? What is the logic behind Goku waiting 10 years training waiting for the rematch he wants, spend 5 years training Oob, and then ending his training when Oob doesn't come close to Goku's original expectations?

Goku's feats in space merely consisted of taking out some aliens and a giant robot with unknown (likely not very impressive) power levels. Considering how beings like Freeza and Kid Buu were considered the top tiered threats of the universe, I'd be exceptionally surprised if random aliens like Ledgic and Mutchy were anything special. Perfect Cell (against Goku) tier seems like a good level to place the two actually.

Unless Goku as a Super Saiyan was suppressed far down below his maximum base power (burden of proof would rest on you), then each of the individual Sigmas are above Goku's initial SS form.

Buuhan is a different beast compared to Buutenks. Throw on even more power on top of that, and there's no way Base Gohan would be able to stand up to that kind of fighter the way he did against Base Rild. In any case, I still don't think GT Base Gohan = Ultimate Gohan (Z). While I can acknowledge the fact that Gohan has gotten stronger since Z, I also think he has now found a way to tap into higher levels of power by turning SSJ rather than strictly relying on his Ultimate form. He's also likely retained the amazing power boost from Baby.

Why is there "no way"? What's that rule based on? Also, why would Ultimate be a form? It's just all of his hidden power drawn out. It's like saying Guru's boost for Krillin was a form, or like saying Vegeta's "Majin boost" was a form. On top of this, if it was a form, or even just power up, why would Gohan lose it? When has training ever resulted in someone losing power? Where does the train of thought of Gohan being weaker in GT stem from? The only information we have on him is he trained. How would his base end up weaker than his Ultimate?

The whole context behind what Baby said about the greatest Saiyan power could be viewed subjectively. Even if we do assume he literally has obtained the greatest of Saiyan power, there's no reason that should include Vegetto. For one, Vegetto, wasn't around, and two, how would Baby even know the specific realm of power Vegetto was sitting in? I personally feel it's a bit far-fetched to assume Vegetto is automatically grouped into that little remark.

Because Goku and Vegeta have memories of being Vegetto, and Baby stated he has Vegeta's memories. He was stronger than Goku by a fair amount before transforming, so if he only obtains the greatest of Saiyan power after transforming, there has to be someone in between those two forms to surpass.

Buu's comparison to Rild

-Where is the evidence that Buu's higher forms were being compared to Rild?

Although Kid Buu's inferiority to his predecessors being widely accepted really could have been for the sake of letting Goku get his moment to shine as you've pointed out, we can also take that as an indication that chronological order doesn't necessarily determine a villain's strength. Additionally, this seems to pertain more prominently to side villains. Pui Pui and Yakon were complete fodders in comparison to Frieza despite appearing years after the tyrant's defeat. In fact, the Majin duo was even weaker than the previous arc's side villains (Gero and 19). I don't subscribe to the logic that all villains by default are superior to any and all villains from the previous arcs.

Uub's power

-Goku's original expectation with Uub was getting in a challenging fight. While the word challenging could be viewed quite subjectively, it seems very plausible that the Saiyan was seeking the kind of match where he preferably would have to go all out. If Uub (BoGT) was really that much of a powerhouse, wouldn't Goku have at the least gone Super Saiyan? Regardless, he seemed quite content due to the fact that his student was at the least able to keep his base form in check.

Goku's accomplishments in space

-I was primarily referring to Ledgic, Mutchy, and Luud. I honestly did not consider Goku's victories against them as commendable achievements. With a lack of information backing up their power, why should I believe that they're strong enough to rival beings like Buu, Cell, or even Frieza for that matter?

GT Base Gohan or Ultimate Gohan?

-We really can't pinpoint what exactly happened to Gohan's Ultimate form. However, seeing how his fight with Baby Goten went, I'd be extremely surprised if his base form was on par with his Ultimate self (Buu arc). While the Baby boost has been shown to provide quite a substantial increase, I don't think it was nearly enough to close the gap between Goten and Ultimate Gohan (Buu arc).

Super Baby Vegeta or SSJ Vegetto?

-To be fair, there's really no way of determining whether or not Super Baby Vegeta has surpassed SSJ Vegetto. However, even if that were the case, it doesn't mean SSJ4 Goku is worlds above SSJ Vegetto like Beerus, SSG Goku, and SSGSS Goku / Vegeta are.

Using the basic foundation of Whis: 15, Beerus: 10, and SSG Goku: 6, along with subtle clues and hints I was able to pick up from BoG and GT, I've compiled the following scale of numbers.

If Super Baby Vegeta is in fact stronger than SSJ Vegetto, then the latter could even be as low as 1.5 and the former could be 2. That would still put SSJ4 Goku a good amount above both of them.

Whis: 15
SSJ4 Gogeta: 12 (12.5 or 13 at the best)
Beerus: 10
Omega Shenron 8 - 8.5
Golden Freeza: 8
SSGSS Goku / SSGSS Vegeta: 7.5
SSG Goku (BoG): 6
Super 17 (energy absorbed): 5.5
SSJ4 Goku: 4.5
SSJ Vegetto: 2 - 2.5

[Hugo Boss]

Where is the evidence that Buu's higher forms were being compared to Rild?

There is a comment about Rild being more powerful than Boo. If you view Boo's forms as different characters you could place Rild above any of them, but if you view Boo as a whole you could say that aside from Vegetto he was the strongest character in the universe and what surprised Goku was to find someone even stronger than that. When the GT staff gave him the right treatment, Rild was nearly invencible in planet M2, so it's not too difficult to imagine him tougher than Boo.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The power he received to become Super Baby 2 wasn't Saiya power.

...Your point? Super Baby 2 is still a greater "Saiyan power" than Super Baby 1, since he is still a Saiyan.

Having the body of a Saiyan doesn't convert the energy from others into Saiya power.

It could just be that Goku is still comparable to Bebi Vegeta in this scenario.

But we know that this isn't the case, Vegeta-Baby was much stronger than SS3 Goku. Goku punched him in the face, and he didn't damage him at all. Baby punched Goku in the face, and his half face got red with blood in his mouth.

If Uub (BoGT) was really that much of a powerhouse, wouldn't Goku have at the least gone Super Saiyan? Regardless, he seemed quite content due to the fact that his student was at the least able to keep his base form in check.

We only saw a portion of their fight. It's possible that Goku used Super Saiyan 3 against Oob (off-screen), since Goku said that he went all-out in their fight.

[Hitiro]

But we know that this isn't the case, Vegeta-Baby was much stronger than SS3 Goku. Goku punched him in the face, and he didn't damage him at all. Baby punched Goku in the face, and his half face got red with blood in his mouth.

We don't know if Goku punched him full out. Goku could have been holding back. If I were Goku I certainly would have held back as if Bebi Vegeta was weaker than his SSJ3-self, there goes Vegeta's head. He seemed surprised when the punch didn't phase him. If he knew how strong Bebi was at this point he wouldn't have been so surprised. He would also have gone all out if he knew how strong he was. They never had a proper fight so we can't just say Bebi Vegeta was leagues above Goku when we only had a tiny exchange where we don't even know if Goku threw all of his strength in the punch he landed.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

We don't know if Goku punched him full out. Goku could have been holding back. If I were Goku I certainly would have held back as if Bebi Vegeta was weaker than his SSJ3-self, there goes Vegeta's head. He seemed surprised when the punch didn't phase him. If he knew how strong Bebi was at this point he wouldn't have been so surprised. He would also have gone all out if he knew how strong he was. They never had a proper fight so we can't just say Bebi Vegeta was leagues above Goku when we only had a tiny exchange where we don't even know if Goku threw all of his strength in the punch he landed.

Goku admits that he is no match for Baby after his failed punch, and Baby repeatedly calls him weak. There is no doubt that Vegeta-Baby is much stronger than SS3 Goku.

[Hitiro]

Goku admits that he is no match for Baby after his failed punch, and Baby repeatedly calls him weak. There is no doubt that Vegeta-Baby is much stronger than SS3 Goku.

Goku doesn't say he is no match for Bebi after his punch failed. He said that Bebi Vegeta is more than an even match for his SSJ3 form.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku doesn't say he is no match for Bebi after his punch failed. He said that Bebi Vegeta is more than an even match for his SSJ3 form.

How does that make any difference?

[Hugo Boss]

Didn't Goku say later that he realized his small body couldn't attain SS3 (like with Instant Transmission)? He was probably very weak in comparison to his prime in that fight. Not to mention Super Saiyan is probably his best form in that condition. Something similar happened to Golden Freeza.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Didn't Goku say later that he realized his small body couldn't attain SS3 (like with Instant Transmission)? He was probably very weak in comparison to his prime in that fight. Not to mention Super Saiyan is probably his best form in that condition. Something similar happened to Golden Freeza.

He didn't become weaker. He fixed the SS3 issue after he re-grew his tail, and Baby said that he didn't get any stronger than he was before.

[Hugo Boss]

Didn't Goku say later that he realized his small body couldn't attain SS3 (like with Instant Transmission)? He was probably very weak in comparison to his prime in that fight. Not to mention Super Saiyan is probably his best form in that condition. Something similar happened to Golden Freeza.

He didn't become weaker. He fixed the SS3 issue after he re-grew his tail, and Baby said that he didn't get any stronger than he was before.

If Goku really fixed the issue, it's not the case of getting stronger, but of not getting weaker so quickly. It's like Golden Freeza fixing his weakness, but still being weaker than Beerus. By the way, did Goku really confirm his tail fixed SS3 for him or did he just assumed the tail would grant him that ability?

[Sora Saiyan]

In Dragonball Xenoverse
Beerus is impressed by Gogeta's power.
And SSJ4 Gogeta says he can maybe beat Lord Beerus.

That shows alone that Gods are far above Ying Xing Long
And can even beat SSJ4 Gogeta.

Xenoverse was supervised and approved by Akira Toriyama.

Although it would be great to find a guide that specifies Who is stronger between A God and SSJ4 Gogeta

Toriyama wouldn't have looked over every little bit of in game dialogue they might've shown him the story, but i'd say that's it.
I will never follow a video games in game dialogue for proof of one Character being stronger than another, be it on my side or not.

[Hitiro]

Goku doesn't say he is no match for Bebi after his punch failed. He said that Bebi Vegeta is more than an even match for his SSJ3 form.

How does that make any difference?

There is a distinct difference between someone who says "I'm no match." and someone who says "More than an even match." Somebody who is more than an even match is just better than you by enough of a difference to have the advantage. It can still be fairly close. Somebody who says "I'm no match" is clearly outclassed.