Is Golden Freeza Stronger then SSJ4 Gogeta?

[Polyphase Avatron]

Are people really using the dub Raditz line?

[Darkprince410]

Raditz did have an ftl feat . Freeza and Goku have mftl feat according to king kai.

No, none of them do. Raditz's dodging of the Makankosappo isn't mentioned at all as being faster than light in the original manga, nor is there any mention of Goku and Freeza moving faster than light when the two are fighting one another. In fact, unless I'm missing an example somewhere, no character in the manga is referred to as faster than light at any point. The closest we get is Popo's "fast as lightning" movements when he's training Goku, but his entire statements were metaphorical and not literal.

[Friezacooler]

Raditz did have an ftl feat . Freeza and Goku have mftl feat according to king kai.

No, none of them do. Raditz's dodging of the Makankosappo isn't mentioned at all as being faster than light in the original manga, nor is there any mention of Goku and Freeza moving faster than light when the two are fighting one another. In fact, unless I'm missing an example somewhere, no character in the manga is referred to as faster than light at any point. The closest we get is Popo's "fast as lightning" movements when he's training Goku, but his entire statements were metaphorical and not literal.

Krillin commented: Goku being faster than light, yet he thinks this fodders are compitition in the tournament. In the Manga I guess.

[Hitiro]

Raditz did have an ftl feat . Freeza and Goku have mftl feat according to king kai.

No, none of them do. Raditz's dodging of the Makankosappo isn't mentioned at all as being faster than light in the original manga, nor is there any mention of Goku and Freeza moving faster than light when the two are fighting one another. In fact, unless I'm missing an example somewhere, no character in the manga is referred to as faster than light at any point. The closest we get is Popo's "fast as lightning" movements when he's training Goku, but his entire statements were metaphorical and not literal.

Krillin commented: Goku being faster than light, yet he thinks this fodders are compitition in the tournament. In the Manga I guess.

You realise you can dodge a ftl attack while being slower than ftl right? It is simple maths. Lets say the speed of the Makankosappo was 20 metres per second(Lets also pretend that this is 2x the speed of light). That means that at a distance of 20 metres it will take a whole second for the attack to reach the opponent if they are 20 metres away. Now. Depending on the circumference of the beam the person dodging the attack would have to move at a certain speed to dodge it. For the Makankosappo it is not a very large attack but lets just say for arguments sake that it's 3 metres. A person travelling at 5 metres per second sideways would be able to easily dodge this before the beam reaches 20 metres in a second.

With above that would basically be half the speed of light as if 20 m/s is 2x and 10 m/s is 1x the speed of light then 5 m/s is going to be 0.5x the speed of light. These calculations can be applied to the actual speeds of light but it is a bit of a hassle because 2x the speed of light would be 599,584,916 m/s. So given a distance of 20 metres between the attacker and the person being attacked it is going to be an incredibly short space of time. Something I'd rather not work out.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Honestly figuring out relative speed between characters is a better idea than trying to figure out absolute speed, because if you look through the series there are tons of times where characters are fast enough to do one thing, then too slow to do something that shouldn't take as much speed, etc. There are inconsistencies all over the place.

[Hitiro]

Honestly figuring out relative speed between characters is a better idea than trying to figure out absolute speed, because if you look through the series there are tons of times where characters are fast enough to do one thing, then too slow to do something that shouldn't take as much speed, etc. There are inconsistencies all over the place.

For example? The only speed inconsistencies that arrive during the story is when a character is flying from, say Kami's lookout, to another location. But then I don't consider them inconsistencies because travelling from point A to point B where the distance is 10 miles would require a ridiculous amount of energy if they were travelling there via the speed they use in battles. In battles they move in bursts of several metres.

To put it another way, if it takes an infinite amount of energy to move 10 miles at the speed of light you may as well fly 10 miles at a speed of 10 miles per hour because you would save an infinite amount of energy.

[Polyphase Avatron]

But sometimes they are racing to get to a destination as fast as possible.

[Hitiro]

But sometimes they are racing to get to a destination as fast as possible.

At a reasonably paced speed. It would do them no good to go like a bat out of hell and arrive there with zero stamina to fight an opponent. They would just die in vain. Goku rides nimbus, which is clearly slower than him, on his way to fight the Saiyan's to maintain his strength for the fight.

[Bando]

then Gt would lose by default since they don't have the evidence to say they can move that fast

When Beerus have feats of him moving at speeds that make light look like a snail

That is nonsense. It means you cannot compare them and that's it. By your "logic" Goku in the Saiyajin Saga is faster than the GT characters because we have something to tell how fast he is in it and in GT we don't know how fast or slow they are/have become. Or Gohan in the Boo Saga. Take whatever example you want. Nothing of it will work anyway. We don't know it and there is nothing more to that. And everything you have for Beerus is just an assumption based on fan calculations that mean nothing, especially in a world of Dragon Ball that was purposely used so the author does not need to care about rules/law of physic/any exact real life calculation/depiction of the world/et cetera.

If GT were a complete spin-off that didn't depend on Z's preceding story arcs, then you might have had a point.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, so if Beerus is indeed faster than light, then there would need to be a counter evidence that any other character or series he's being compared to is capable of something like that. If they can't meet that requirement, then it's an automatic forfeit.

Someone earlier in the thread made a hypothetical example involving their IQ being 120. While that is above average, it's nothing so extraordinary enough to assume they are smarter than everyone they meet. Claiming you won $20 from a bet is totally different from claiming you won the $150 million jackpot.

If my reasoning is wrong, feel free to correct me. But from I read it sounded like you guys were saying any generic character with a vague speed can't be said to be slower than Beerus, which would include even those only mentioned or alluded to in one series or another (e.g. we know nothing about Uncle Ben's youth, so we can't definitively say Beerus was faster than him at his prime!).

[Lord Gogeta]

Raditz did have an ftl feat . Freeza and Goku have mftl feat according to king kai.

No, none of them do. Raditz's dodging of the Makankosappo isn't mentioned at all as being faster than light in the original manga, nor is there any mention of Goku and Freeza moving faster than light when the two are fighting one another. In fact, unless I'm missing an example somewhere, no character in the manga is referred to as faster than light at any point. The closest we get is Popo's "fast as lightning" movements when he's training Goku, but his entire statements were metaphorical and not literal.

Nah first of all. Raditz has an ftl feat whether is stated or not ,doesn't change the outcome he, dodge a beam faster then the no name beam that reached the moon almost instantly in the manga. I'm not going base on English dub at all. Goku in Dragonball is faster or as fast as Tien's solar flare and Goku is mentioned lightspeed in Japanese anime. Is also stated on Toei's website that Goku and Picolo dodged beams of light by raditz.
The anime has extra feat that makes them mftl in namek saga thanks to King Kai.

There are many ftl feats in the manga, but people don't pay attention enough .of course there will always be doweplayers

[Lord Gogeta]

Also using snake way is no way to find Goku's speed as it was PIS, there were quicker ways to get there like using Kami's IT . Also the speed Goku is calculated is way below lighting which Kid Goku was faster then ,way back in Dragonball. And no it was not metaphorical ,it was literal . I'm pretty even guides can confirm this. Even roshi moonbust is confirmed by a guidebook. (People keep saying is an outlier )

[Rocketman]

There's a lot of PISing going on, that's for sure.

[rereboy]

Raditz has an ftl feat whether is stated or not ,doesn't change the outcome he, dodge a beam faster then the no name beam that reached the moon almost instantly in the manga.

That's called cinematic time.

[Birusu16]

Look you can't accurately assess where the god tier characters of the DB canon stand in relation to the GT characters. There's literally nothing that gives us any basis for comparison aside from a GT guidebook statement saying that Vegetto might be stronger than SSJ4 Goku.

So it's a matter of opinion. I'm of the opinion that all the god tier characters surpass anything in GT, but I'm not going to suggest that's factual as there's no concrete evidence to support nor is there for GT characters being far above the god tiers from BoGs and on.

[Darkprince410]

Raditz has an ftl feat whether is stated or not ,doesn't change the outcome he, dodge a beam faster then the no name beam that reached the moon almost instantly in the manga.

We have no frame of reference for how long the blast took to travel from Piccolo to the Moon. He fires it in one panel, and then in the second we see the blast striking the Moon. You're presuming it happened instantly, but in truth we don't know the time frame associated.

Also the speed Goku is calculated is way below lighting which Kid Goku was faster then ,way back in Dragonball. And no it was not metaphorical ,it was literal .

Lightning travels slower than light, only about 3,700 miles per second as opposed to 186,000 miles per second for light. If you take Popo's training to move "as fast as lightning" as literal rather than metaphorical (and this is for combat purposes as well, not just traveling purposes), then Goku was vastly slower than light following his battle with Piccolo Daimao.

Popo: “We’re incredibly high up in the sky here. The air is thin. It’s tough on you humans. That’s why it’s no good for people like you who make so many unnecessary movements. This is an important principle, even down on the ground. A stance as quiet as the sky, movement as fast as lightning.”

If you say that you consider Popo's statement as literal, then Goku was several times slower than the speed of light by that point, not faster than light.

[rereboy]

If you say that you consider Popo's statement as literal, then Goku was several times slower than the speed of light by that point, not faster than light.

Lightning is just a bolt of electricity in the atmosphere, which is nowhere near as fast as light. Lightning speed =/= light speed.

[Cetra]

If GT were a complete spin-off that didn't depend on Z's preceding story arcs, then you might have had a point.

I have a point already because of the mere fact that Dragon Ball is not as pseudo-scientific as fans want it to be. There are some loose rules but it has no problems to contradict itself all the time.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, so if Beerus is indeed faster than light, then there would need to be a counter evidence that any other character or series he's being compared to is capable of something like that. If they can't meet that requirement, then it's an automatic forfeit.

I. Most of what people say about Beerus is nothing but a fan's speculation based on self-made calculations and compared to real life physics, something that pretty much helps nothing. That alone is so vague it is hardly worth more than the "stats" of a character that we don't know at all. And using it as evidence or proof alone is very debatable. When it comes to most of it being totally interpreted by a fan it is not even debatable, but cannot be considered useful at all. And you know, this is Dragon Ball. Fans do that all the time.
2. It really is not an automatic forfeit. You cannot treat an indefinite state as "the character can't do that" because both "he can" and "he can't" are definite states, "maybe" is not equal "no" and a loss of a battle would require a battle (in this case the comparison) to even be possible. It is not possible, therefore no loss. You are saying "my future life cannot be better than what I have experienced already" (example). You cannot compare your experience of your future life (unknown factor) with your past life (known factor). Does that make your past life better, as it has "won"? No. It has not won at all. You cannot just go out and say "okay, I know that so this is the best". I agree with you that it is the best official[/o] thing. But the possibility of the unknown thing being better still exists. It does not magically become a fact that it is worse just because you couldn't compare it. "Not comparable" is not "compared but lost through lack of details" and the latter should really not be considered at all.

If my reasoning is wrong, feel free to correct me. But from I read it sounded like you guys were saying any generic character with a vague speed can't be said to be slower than Beerus, which would include even those only mentioned or alluded to in one series or another (e.g. we know nothing about Uncle Ben's youth, so we can't definitively say Beerus was faster than him at his prime!).

First of all, it is true, you cannot compare Beerus to Uncle Ben. You know why? Yes, it is a fact that Uncle Ben is a human character from Marvel and Beerus is a planet-destroying God. However, no one owns both, therefore it is impossible to decide that one of them is faster than the other. Which is by the way why all those fan-death battles, blablabla where they just directly compare at least some of the known characteristics are completely useless - because no one, not even an author can decide about it, except they have the rights for everything necessary. So, no, I do not claim that Uncle Ben is or was faster than Beerus. It is simply not my right to say the one or the other even if those things seem pretty "obvious". The right to decide is a completely different and also important factor here.

[Darkprince410]

If you say that you consider Popo's statement as literal, then Goku was several times slower than the speed of light by that point, not faster than light.

Lightning is just a bolt of electricity in the atmosphere, which is nowhere near as fast as light. Lightning speed =/= light speed.

I know it's not anywhere near as fast as light. I was telling God Gogeta that, taking Popo's statement literally (which he, God Gogeta, said was literal) that the statement proves that Goku was far, far slower than light.

[Lord Gogeta]

@DarkPrince

Is stated you have to be as fast as lightning, saying is metaphorical is pure especulation. Also saying snake way isn't PIS is wrong, since even Roshi displayed better speed VS Krillin. Tao showed better speed as well with the pillar ,etc. So that does not count . and Goku has LS reaction at least in Dragonball has shown several times. Then is implied Lightspeed is slow for him in 23rd Budokai.

So nah I disagree , you're entitled to your opinion, but Z fighters have been ftl at End of Dragonball and Saiyan Saga. Feats and statements proves it. BTW lightning can go as 1/3 of light, so relativistic. And Goku did surpassed lightning, so it doesn't contradict anything.

[Darkprince410]

@DarkPrince

Is stated you have to be as fast as lightning, saying is metaphorical is pure especulation. Also saying snake way isn't PIS is wrong, since even Roshi displayed better speed VS Krillin. Tao showed better speed as well with the pillar ,etc. So that does not count . and Goku has LS reaction at least in Dragonball has shown several times. Then is implied Lightspeed is slow for him in 23rd Budokai.

So nah I disagree , you're entitled to your opinion, but Z fighters have been ftl at End of Dragonball and Saiyan Saga. Feats and statements proves it. BTW lightning can go as 1/3 of light, so relativistic. And Goku did surpassed lightning, so it doesn't contradict anything.

If Popo's statements indicate that Goku needs to learn how to travel as fast as lightning, then that means that, up to that point, he hasn't learned how to make movements as fast as lightning. Since lightning is slower than light, that means that, at that point, Goku had yet to be able to move as fast as light. So if you believe that Popo's statement was literal, and not just metaphorical, then he wasn't capable of light speed in Dragon Ball.