Kid Goku GT vs. SSGSS Goku?

[Lord Gogeta]

In Dragonball Xenoverse
Beerus is impressed by Gogeta's power.
And SSJ4 Gogeta says he can maybe beat Lord Beerus.

That shows alone that Gods are far above Ying Xing Long
And can even beat SSJ4 Gogeta.

Xenoverse was supervised and approved by Akira Toriyama.

Although it would be great to find a guide that specifies Who is stronger between A God and SSJ4 Gogeta

Toriyama wouldn't have looked over every little bit of in game dialogue they might've shown him the story, but i'd say that's it.
I will never follow a video games in game dialogue for proof of one Character being stronger than another, be it on my side or not.

Well then if you dont accept a game approved and supervised by AT, then all you have is speculation.

[Sora Saiyan]

Sorry, but are you getting this game confused with DB Online? I don't know where you're getting the idea from that Toriyama had that much involvement, it sounds to me that you're in fact thinking about Online.

[supercat]

Where is the evidence that Buu's higher forms were being compared to Rild?

There is a comment about Rild being more powerful than Boo. If you view Boo's forms as different characters you could place Rild above any of them, but if you view Boo as a whole you could say that aside from Vegetto he was the strongest character in the universe and what surprised Goku was to find someone even stronger than that. When the GT staff gave him the right treatment, Rild was nearly invencible in planet M2, so it's not too difficult to imagine him tougher than Boo.

Because the whole purpose of dropping Buu's name in the context was to hype Rild up as a new villain, elaborating on the fact that their new opponent had even greater power than Buu, plus Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks would only intensify the effect. In any case, the vast majority of Buuhan's power came directly from Gohan, so comparing Rild to Buuhan is almost like comparing the machine mutant to Ultimate Gohan.

Kid Buu, being the final villain, is also likely the most iconic Buu in Goku's eyes in addition to the eyes of many others. Therefore, it's quite fitting that this was the form of Buu that Goku was referring to.

I honestly don't think any GT villain came close to surpassing Buuhan, until the appearance of Super Baby Vegeta.

Buuhan > Buutenks > Final Form Rild > Second Form Rild = Super Buu > Base Rild > Kid Buu

If Uub (BoGT) was really that much of a powerhouse, wouldn't Goku have at the least gone Super Saiyan? Regardless, he seemed quite content due to the fact that his student was at the least able to keep his base form in check.

We only saw a portion of their fight. It's possible that Goku used Super Saiyan 3 against Oob (off-screen), since Goku said that he went all-out in their fight.

Fair enough, without actually seeing how the fight started off, there's no way to say with certainty how things played out. In fact, Goku starting off as some form of SSJ would make a lot more sense, as this would actually support Uub reaching Kid Buu tier.

The only reason I believed that Uub (BoGT) fell short of reaching his former self was because he was shown fighting Base Goku. However, judging by Goku's contentment over his students progress, I suppose it seems plausible enough to assume that the Saiyan had indeed started the fight with some form of SSJ.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If Goku really fixed the issue, it's not the case of getting stronger, but of not getting weaker so quickly. It's like Golden Freeza fixing his weakness, but still being weaker than Beerus.

But Goku's problem wasn't that he got weaker, the problem was that he couldn't keep SS3 active.

By the way, did Goku really confirm his tail fixed SS3 for him or did he just assumed the tail would grant him that ability?

He doesn't confirm this, but it looks like the problem was fixed. He stayed in the form much longer, and he only reverted back to base after he was beaten by Baby.

There is a distinct difference between someone who says "I'm no match." and someone who says "More than an even match." Somebody who is more than an even match is just better than you by enough of a difference to have the advantage. It can still be fairly close. Somebody who says "I'm no match" is clearly outclassed.

But as we can see, Goku is clearly outclassed.

In fact, Goku starting off as some form of SSJ would make a lot more sense, as this would actually support Uub reaching Kid Buu tier.

Don't forget that this is written by Toei, where base Saiyans can have an even fight with SS tier opponents.

The only reason I believed that Uub (BoGT) fell short of reaching his former self was because he was shown fighting Base Goku. However, judging by Goku's contentment over his students progress, I suppose it seems plausible enough to assume that the Saiyan had indeed started the fight with some form of SSJ.

In the manga, Goku expected Oob to be strong enough to have a chance to beat him, and wanted to fight him when they were both at 100%. After their fight, Goku says that Oob is exactly as strong as he expected him to be, but he was untrained & didn't know how to use his power, which is why he trained him. For an untrained Oob to be strong enough to maybe beat Goku (Mr. Boo was in the tournament and they were intending to fight him & beat him, so they would transform if they wanted, unlike back at the 25th TB), his full power should be around Pure Boo's level, and by the time GT starts, not only he should have control of that power, but he should be even stronger than that.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Uub's power

-Goku's original expectation with Uub was getting in a challenging fight. While the word challenging could be viewed quite subjectively, it seems very plausible that the Saiyan was seeking the kind of match where he preferably would have to go all out. If Uub (BoGT) was really that much of a powerhouse, wouldn't Goku have at the least gone Super Saiyan? Regardless, he seemed quite content due to the fact that his student was at the least able to keep his base form in check.

As DBZGTKOSDH said, he could've started off in a higher form, since he stated they were going all out. Or, Oob could've just reached Goku's original expectations, and then by the time Oob reached that level, Goku didn't need Super Saiyan to match him.

Goku's accomplishments in space

-I was primarily referring to Ledgic, Mutchy, and Luud. I honestly did not consider Goku's victories against them as commendable achievements. With a lack of information backing up their power, why should I believe that they're strong enough to rival beings like Buu, Cell, or even Freeza for that matter?

Redjic was strong enough to force Goku to resort to Super Saiyan, so he's slightly stronger than Base Goku, so that would obviously put him far far far above fodder like Freeza. Mutchi is iunno, he just had weird powers. Lood tanked a Kamehameha straight to the face from Base Goku, when he powered up to Level 3, his power was treated like a big deal. Goku had already displayed his Super Saiyan power during the fight, no comments were made. Meanwhile, Lood is remarked as "incredible" and things to those degree.

GT Base Gohan or Ultimate Gohan?

-We really can't pinpoint what exactly happened to Gohan's Ultimate form. However, seeing how his fight with Baby Goten went, I'd be extremely surprised if his base form was on par with his Ultimate self (Buu arc). While the Baby boost has been shown to provide quite a substantial increase, I don't think it was nearly enough to close the gap between Goten and Ultimate Gohan (Buu arc).

What? What do you mean "what happened" to Gohan's power? What is there saying anything happened to it?

Gohan losing his Ultimate powers in GT is completely uncorroborated, there is absolutely positively zero evidence whatsoever to say Gohan lost his Ultimate power. If you wanna say he lost it, prove it, or provide evidence.

Goku in the last episode of Z told Goten to train, and Goten agreed, so him training + getting boosted by Baby doesn't make him giving Base Gohan trouble as a Super Saiyan.

Not that that even matters, this is a Toei production. There is never any logic behind anything that goes on over there. Goku is fodder to SS Gotenks in the Boo saga, yet is even stronger than Ultimate Gohan as a SS2 in Movie 13.

[Hitiro]

There is a distinct difference between someone who says "I'm no match." and someone who says "More than an even match." Somebody who is more than an even match is just better than you by enough of a difference to have the advantage. It can still be fairly close. Somebody who says "I'm no match" is clearly outclassed.

But as we can see, Goku is clearly outclassed.

There is literally no way to tell because he got one punch in while he was a SSJ3. We can't confirm if he even went full out when he threw that punch. The characters usually test the waters and start throwing weaker punches before they go all out. Even more so with the good guys. And even more so if Goku is worried that a full powered punch would take off Vegeta's head. So no, we can't see that Goku is outclassed. We would need a longer fight than what was demonstrated to ascertain if he was outclassed or not.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

There is literally no way to tell because he got one punch in while he was a SSJ3. We can't confirm if he even went full out when he threw that punch. The characters usually test the waters and start throwing weaker punches before they go all out. Even more so with the good guys. And even more so if Goku is worried that a full powered punch would take off Vegeta's head. So no, we can't see that Goku is outclassed. We would need a longer fight than what was demonstrated to ascertain if he was outclassed or not.

We wouldn't need a longer fight, because we saw enough. Goku punches Baby, nothing happens. Baby punches Goku, his face turns red from blood. Goku admits that Baby is stronger than him, and Baby repeatedly says how Goku is pathetic compared to him. Nothing even hints that Goku was holding back, and we have no reason to assume that he does, since Baby showed him his full power, which is why Goku went Super Saiyan 3 right from the start.

[Sora Saiyan]

GT Base Gohan or Ultimate Gohan?

-We really can't pinpoint what exactly happened to Gohan's Ultimate form. However, seeing how his fight with Baby Goten went, I'd be extremely surprised if his base form was on par with his Ultimate self (Buu arc). While the Baby boost has been shown to provide quite a substantial increase, I don't think it was nearly enough to close the gap between Goten and Ultimate Gohan (Buu arc).

What? What do you mean "what happened" to Gohan's power? What is there saying anything happened to it?

Gohan losing his Ultimate powers in GT is completely uncorroborated, there is absolutely positively zero evidence whatsoever to say Gohan lost his Ultimate power. If you wanna say he lost it, prove it, or provide evidence.

Goku in the last episode of Z told Goten to train, and Goten agreed, so him training + getting boosted by Baby doesn't make him giving Base Gohan trouble as a Super Saiyan.

Not that that even matters, this is a Toei production. There is never any logic behind anything that goes on over there. Goku is fodder to SS Gotenks in the Boo saga, yet is even stronger than Ultimate Gohan as a SS2 in Movie 13.

My only issues with Ultimate Gohan in GT are, what happens when he becomes SSJ? Does it stack, or is it a separate form like in BoG? Did Gohan ever show a noticeable power up whilst in his Ultimate form like in the manga (bar one occasion) and BoG? Also, Ultimate Gohan was meant to be like turning SSJ but with a Kaia thrown in, did GT just get rid of the power up into his Ultimate form in favour of turning SSJ?

[Hitiro]

We wouldn't need a longer fight, because we saw enough. Goku punches Baby, nothing happens. Baby punches Goku, his face turns red from blood. Goku admits that Baby is stronger than him, and Baby repeatedly says how Goku is pathetic compared to him. Nothing even hints that Goku was holding back, and we have no reason to assume that he does, since Baby showed him his full power, which is why Goku went Super Saiyan 3 right from the start.

We do need a longer fight because we didn't see enough. Goku punches Bebi, if Goku is only using 50% of his SSJ3 power of course nothing is going to happen. Bebi punches Goku back and Goku admits that Bebi is "more than an even match" for him at SSJ3. It doesn't matter if Bebi is repeatedly calling Goku pathetic. Vegeta also did that in the Saiyan arc despite Goku having the advantage.

Why wouldn't Goku hold back? If he is more powerful than Bebi by a good margin then Vegeta is dead with one punch. The good guys usually start off holding back and then use more of their power later in the fight. There is no reason to assume that Goku didn't hold back. Because Goku is the type of guy to be concerned for his opponent anyway. Goku held back against the dragon that absorbed Pan for another example. Bebi showing his full power means nothing really because several characters have demonstrated their full power and the weaker person still thought they had the advantage. Semi-perfect Cell against Super Vegeta for instance or Perfect Cell against SSJ2 Gohan are two such examples. Characters have issues sizing up their own power against the opponents generally. All Goku probably had was a vague idea that SSJ2 wouldn't be enough. But SSJ3, if the multipliers stayed the same, is 4x stronger than SSJ2 anyway so Goku could have easily thought that Bebi was vaguely between SSJ2-SSJ3 tier in power. If he is in the bottom end of this then Vegeta is as good as dead from a full powered punch so Goku would most assuredly hold back with the first punch just to gauge where Bebi sat in terms of power. But as we see from the dialogue Goku quickly realised that Bebi was stronger than him. Goku was shocked by this. If he was shocked by this he must have assumed that Bebi was less than Goku's own power. Otherwise he wouldn't have been shocked. It's pretty logical really. I don't see why you can't see it.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

My only issues with Ultimate Gohan in GT are, what happens when he becomes SSJ? Does it stack, or is it a separate form like in BoG? Did Gohan ever show a noticeable power up whilst in his Ultimate form like in the manga (bar one occasion) and BoG? Also, Ultimate Gohan was meant to be like turning SSJ but with a Kaia thrown in, did GT just get rid of the power up into his Ultimate form in favour of turning SSJ?

'Ultimate' is just his base, and he goes Super Saiyan on top of it.

Chapter: 496 (DBZ 302), P4.1-2
Gohan: “Ho-how can I turn into this mightiest of warriors!?”
Elder Kaioshin: “You transform into that Super whatever-it-is a lot, right? You’ll be fine if you just get the gist of that, and throw in a kiai.”
Gohan: “The gist of Super Saiyan…I-I got it…!”

Ultimate Gohan was not meant to be "turning Super Saiyan". Rou Kaioshin just told Gohan to access his powers for the first time, he'd have to just do a Kiai, similar to when he's turning Super Saiyan.

That doesn't necessarily translate to "This release of dormant power replaces all of your transformations and you will never be able to transform into a Super Saiyan again."

[Sora Saiyan]

I didn't say it was just "turning SSJ" I said it was meant to be similar to turning SSJ.
As we know from that quote Gohan actually powers up into his Ultimate form, so do you have him powering up into it and he then mixes SSJ in with it?
I've never followed SSJ stacking with Ultimate, to me it's either one or the other. IMO Ultimate is every bit of power available to Gohan released without the need of transforming into a SSJ form. I totally understand why you follow it being a stack though, with Gohan not stopping his training in GT.

[supercat]

In fact, Goku starting off as some form of SSJ would make a lot more sense, as this would actually support Uub reaching Kid Buu tier.

Don't forget that this is written by Toei, where base Saiyans can have an even fight with SS tier opponents.

The only reason I believed that Uub (BoGT) fell short of reaching his former self was because he was shown fighting Base Goku. However, judging by Goku's contentment over his students progress, I suppose it seems plausible enough to assume that the Saiyan had indeed started the fight with some form of SSJ.

In the manga, Goku expected Oob to be strong enough to have a chance to beat him, and wanted to fight him when they were both at 100%. After their fight, Goku says that Oob is exactly as strong as he expected him to be, but he was untrained & didn't know how to use his power, which is why he trained him. For an untrained Oob to be strong enough to maybe beat Goku (Mr. Boo was in the tournament and they were intending to fight him & beat him, so they would transform if they wanted, unlike back at the 25th TB), his full power should be around Pure Boo's level, and by the time GT starts, not only he should have control of that power, but he should be even stronger than that.

I'm well aware of the fact that Toei is notorious for giving characters random unjustifiable hax. However, if we simply fall back on that, there's really no point for these in-universe discussions pertaining to any Toei characters right?

On a serious note, I don't think Goku was literally expecting Uub to be on par with a villain that he had fought with in a near death battle 10 years prior. The Saiyan's expectations were probably more in line with facing off against an opponent who is capable of either rivaling his base form, or possibly even keeping up with him while he's a Super Saiyan.

I doubt Goku was seriously expecting an inexperienced child to possess ALL of the power that the once unbeatable threat of the universe had.

While I could certainly understand Uub having that degree of power stored somewhere within as his potential, starting off at that level right from the get-go sounds quite preposterous. That would mean with an ample amount of anger, Uub (EoZ) could one-shot fighters like Majin Vegeta and Super Perfect Cell, as such feats are well within the realm of possibility for any fighter who wields the power of Kid Buu.

Also, because EoZ is still canon, it likely follows the concept of Base Goku (Buu arc) being below Frieza. Therefore, without the blessing of any hax, a base Saiyan going from being weaker than Frieza to the same realm of power as Kid Buu sounds exceptionally far-fetched in my personal opinion.

Uub's power

-Goku's original expectation with Uub was getting in a challenging fight. While the word challenging could be viewed quite subjectively, it seems very plausible that the Saiyan was seeking the kind of match where he preferably would have to go all out. If Uub (BoGT) was really that much of a powerhouse, wouldn't Goku have at the least gone Super Saiyan? Regardless, he seemed quite content due to the fact that his student was at the least able to keep his base form in check.

As DBZGTKOSDH said, he could've started off in a higher form, since he stated they were going all out. Or, Oob could've just reached Goku's original expectations, and then by the time Oob reached that level, Goku didn't need Super Saiyan to match him.

Goku's accomplishments in space

-I was primarily referring to Ledgic, Mutchy, and Luud. I honestly did not consider Goku's victories against them as commendable achievements. With a lack of information backing up their power, why should I believe that they're strong enough to rival beings like Buu, Cell, or even Freeza for that matter?

Redjic was strong enough to force Goku to resort to Super Saiyan, so he's slightly stronger than Base Goku, so that would obviously put him far far far above fodder like Freeza. Mutchi is iunno, he just had weird powers. Lood tanked a Kamehameha straight to the face from Base Goku, when he powered up to Level 3, his power was treated like a big deal. Goku had already displayed his Super Saiyan power during the fight, no comments were made. Meanwhile, Lood is remarked as "incredible" and things to those degree.

GT Base Gohan or Ultimate Gohan?

-We really can't pinpoint what exactly happened to Gohan's Ultimate form. However, seeing how his fight with Baby Goten went, I'd be extremely surprised if his base form was on par with his Ultimate self (Buu arc). While the Baby boost has been shown to provide quite a substantial increase, I don't think it was nearly enough to close the gap between Goten and Ultimate Gohan (Buu arc).

What? What do you mean "what happened" to Gohan's power? What is there saying anything happened to it?

Gohan losing his Ultimate powers in GT is completely uncorroborated, there is absolutely positively zero evidence whatsoever to say Gohan lost his Ultimate power. If you wanna say he lost it, prove it, or provide evidence.

Goku in the last episode of Z told Goten to train, and Goten agreed, so him training + getting boosted by Baby doesn't make him giving Base Gohan trouble as a Super Saiyan.

Not that that even matters, this is a Toei production. There is never any logic behind anything that goes on over there. Goku is fodder to SS Gotenks in the Boo saga, yet is even stronger than Ultimate Gohan as a SS2 in Movie 13.

The strongest I could see SSJ Goku (BoGT) is SSJ Gotenks (Buu arc) tier, and that's after factoring in GT hax. Hypothetically, if SSJ Goku (BoGT) was on par with SSJ Gotenks (Buu arc), then Goku starting the fight off as SSJ against Uub (BoGT), and the latter having reached the same levels of power as his former self holds a lot of feasibility.

Seeing how easily SSJ Goku was able to dispatch Ledgic, I'd be surprised if Don Kee's bodyguard was actually anything spectacular. Like I said in one of my earlier posts, Perfect Cell (against Goku) tier seems like a fairly plausible place for him.

Luud's durability could be a result of superior technology. The energy absorbing androids have demonstrated the ability to survive blasts easily capable of doing them in thanks to the technologically embedded nodules on their palms. My point is, if technological prowess has a track record of equipping an old man with the ability to survive ki blasts from Super Saiyans, why wouldn't the same type of knowledge be applicable towards building insane durability for a giant robot?

Goten seemed like he was interested in everything but training at the start of GT. Vegeta had to literally drag him into searching for the Dragon Balls for crying out loud. Regardless, I can't recall a single reference ever indicating that the youngest son of Goku actually trained and increased his power. Simply telling his father he would train is completely different from actually subjecting himself to a vigorous training regimen long term.

I specifically mentioned we can't pinpoint what happened to Gohan's ultimate form, because there is no evidence stating that he either lost or kept it. We don't have enough information on how Gohan resorted to gathering energy after receiving the Elder Kai boost to accurately evaluate this.

His transformations have been all over the place. Despite going SSJ in FnF, his power was apparently lower than his Ultimate form. Therefore, with the limited information we have, we can't make a factually based determination here.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I didn't say it was just "turning SSJ" I said it was meant to be similar to turning SSJ.
As we know from that quote Gohan actually powers up into his Ultimate form, so do you have him powering up into it and he then mixes SSJ in with it?
I've never followed SSJ stacking with Ultimate, to me it's either one or the other. IMO Ultimate is every bit of power available to Gohan released without the need of transforming into a SSJ form. I totally understand why you follow it being a stack though, with Gohan not stopping his training in GT.

It just seems as though Ultimate is his base form, since his base form still has his eyes that are explicitly exclusive to his Ultimate form only.

When Gohan got his dormant power unlocked from Guru, did it become a form? Or was all of his dormant power he had at the time brought to the surface? That's pretty much how I see Ultimate. It's not a transformation/form, that's the wrong way of doing things going by Rou Kaioshin, it's just all of Gohan's dormant power brought out, and more (since he's beyond his limits).

Bobbidi brought Vegeta far beyond his limits, and he was still only a SS2. Yet in GT, Vegeta gets much stronger and achieves more transformations, so I don't see why Gohan becoming stronger is an impossibility.

The strongest I could see SSJ Goku (BoGT) is SSJ Gotenks (Buu arc) tier, and that's after factoring in GT hax. Hypothetically, if SSJ Goku (BoGT) was on par with SSJ Gotenks (Buu arc), then Goku starting the fight off as SSJ against Uub (BoGT), and the latter having reached the same levels of power as his former self holds a lot of feasibility.

I can agree with that placement, so if his SS form was on par with Oob like you're saying, then that'd make them around SS Gotenks post, who (should be) stronger than Pure Boo.

Seeing how easily SSJ Goku was able to dispatch Ledgic, I'd be surprised if Don Kee's bodyguard was actually anything spectacular. Like I said in one of my earlier posts, Perfect Cell (against Goku) tier seems like a fairly plausible place for him.

Well, if you really believe Perfect Cell @ Goku would survive multiple blows from any version of GT Goku, I guess..

What does Redjic's power have to do with Goku's huge increase in space anyway?

Luud's durability could be a result of superior technology. The energy absorbing androids have demonstrated the ability to survive blasts easily capable of doing them in thanks to the technologically embedded nodules on their palms. My point is, if technological prowess has a track record of equipping an old man with the ability to survive ki blasts from Super Saiyans, why wouldn't the same type of knowledge be applicable towards building insane durability for a giant robot?

Sounds like a cop-out to avoid giving credit to Lood for his feats. When has durability ever covered a multi-fold gap?

Goten seemed like he was interested in everything but training at the start of GT. Vegeta had to literally drag him into searching for the Dragon Balls for crying out loud. Regardless, I can't recall a single reference ever indicating that the youngest son of Goku actually trained and increased his power. Simply telling his father he would train is completely different from actually subjecting himself to a vigorous training regimen long term.

Regardless, whether you chose to ignore Goten agreeing to train or not, you can't expect to find logic in a show like GT. Is there ever anything that's logical behind Toei's productions? SS2 Goku/Vegeta outperforming Ultimate Gohan in M13? SS2 Goku/Vegeta fending off Gohan-Boo, or damaging Evil Boo as regular Super Saiyans? Base Gohan fending off Dabra/M10 SS Broly?

They don't care about logic, they make characters as strong as they want.

I specifically mentioned we can't pinpoint what happened to Gohan's ultimate form, because there is no evidence stating that he either lost or kept it. We don't have enough information on how Gohan resorted to gathering energy after receiving the Elder Kai boost to accurately evaluate this.

His transformations have been all over the place. Despite going SSJ in FnF, his power was apparently lower than his Ultimate form. Therefore, with the limited information we have, we can't make a factually based determination here.

I don't need evidence that he "kept it".

You need evidence he lost it. You can't make something up like Gohan losing his Ultimate, provide zero evidence for it, and then expect me to refute it.

When was it ever said his dormant power unlock was temporary? Or that he'd lose it? When has anyone ever lost power from training?

He still has his Ultimate eyes and he's noted to have trained. That's the only information we have. Nothing saying he lost anything.

[Hugo Boss]

Because the whole purpose of dropping Buu's name in the context was to hype Rild up as a new villain, elaborating on the fact that their new opponent had even greater power than Buu, plus Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks would only intensify the effect. In any case, the vast majority of Buuhan's power came directly from Gohan, so comparing Rild to Buuhan is almost like comparing the machine mutant to Ultimate Gohan. Kid Buu, being the final villain, is also likely the most iconic Buu in Goku's eyes in addition to the eyes of many others. Therefore, it's quite fitting that this was the form of Buu that Goku was referring to. I honestly don't think any GT villain came close to surpassing Buuhan, until the appearance of Super Baby Vegeta.

Well, I guess, if you are comparing a new character with the former strongest, there is no need to comment on secondary ones, like Gohan. Even if most of Boo's power came from others, all of his forms are called Boo. Like him Rild also had the ability of adding people (or I should say machines) and their power, he could also absorb power from the planet M2 itself and transform the Saiyans in metal plates. Finally there is that Ultron-esque ability. If you look at the way they are portrayed, Boo and Rild have very similar powers with minor differences. I personally can see Rild being slightly ahead of Boo. He had to be nerfed to be beaten by Goku and co.

But Goku's problem wasn't that he got weaker, the problem was that he couldn't keep SS3 active.

Perhaps I'm being a little picky, but in this case the two "problems" you are talking about are the same. With a fully developed body Goku would be stronger, because he was used to SS3. Trying to use SS3 with a small body would burn energy quick enough to be ineffective in a fight, thus making Goku weaker. The more he fights, the faster he gets weaker, reaching a point that he must revert to normal conditions or even worse than that.

[FoolsGil]

I say they're equal strength. GT Goku in base was utterly dominating Freeza and Cell, and in these new movies, Super Saiyan is being downplayed so you have Goku in base fighting on par with 4th form Freeza, a Freeza who trained might I add.

[singsing]

I say they're equal strength. GT Goku in base was utterly dominating Freeza and Cell, and in these new movies, Super Saiyan is being downplayed so you have Goku in base fighting on par with 4th form Freeza, a Freeza who trained might I add.

The second feat is far more impressive IMO, dominating a regular Freeza in base is nothing compared to being equal to a Freeza who'd gotten as strong as he did in RoF.

[pacz360]

Here's my opinion pre bog any gt character would stomp anyone from z but now due to a comic saying Vegetto around ssj4 level(note i'm not saying he can beat ssj4 goku or anything) and post bog like beerus,whis, god goku and vegeta also golden freeza makes thing's complicated to see how they stack up in gt.

[Lord Gogeta]

Sorry, but are you getting this game confused with DB Online? I don't know where you're getting the idea from that Toriyama had that much involvement, it sounds to me that you're in fact thinking about Online.

Nah the interview about DBX makers shows it. I know what is the diffetence between DBO and DBX. Anyway The story mode/scenario and characters :



I'll look for the YouTube video later

[Sora Saiyan]

Lord Gogeta
With Xenoverse basically throwing a lot of DB Online stuff in the game, I'd be very surprised if it isn't just that. I'd say there's no way, as I'm pretty sure the Kanzenshuu main site would report something as big as that, and from what I remember there was nothing saying Xenoverse was supervised by Toriyama on the main site (I was a lurker for about 4 years, and checked the main site daily.

SSJ2FutureGohan
The way that I believe Ultimate Gohan works is just different, if he were to ever gain any more power his Ultimate form would be the way to bring that, and every bit of power out. He still seems to have the need to power up as we see him make a noticeable power up against Super Boo even though he already had the Ultimate features, and he also powers up to his Ultimate form in BoG. I stick by what Rou Kaioshin was saying, that SSJ is the wrong way of doing things, so he basically eliminated the need for it.

[Friezacooler]

I say they're equal strength. GT Goku in base was utterly dominating Freeza and Cell, and in these new movies, Super Saiyan is being downplayed so you have Goku in base fighting on par with 4th form Freeza, a Freeza who trained might I add.

1. The second feat is far more impressive IMO, dominating a regular Freeza in base is nothing compared to being equal to a Freeza who'd gotten as strong as he did in RoF.

2. pacz360"]Here's my opinion pre bog any gt character would stomp anyone from z but now due to a comic saying Vegetto around ssj4 level(note i'm not saying he can beat ssj4 goku or anything) and post bog like beerus,whis, god goku and vegeta also golden freeza makes thing's complicated to see how they stack up in gt.

1. Isn't 4th form freeza Buu level in ROF, GT freeza and Cell ar proply Kid Buu level since they watched that battle in HFIL and they claimed they are much stronger Then the last time they fought Goku.


2. This link disagrees with that comic lol, SSJ Gogeta can keep up with Vegetto and defeat him SS4 Goku would stomp him lol. http://i.imgur.com/dli02Yx.jpg