Is Golden Freeza Stronger then SSJ4 Gogeta?

[Lord Gogeta]

@DarkPrince

Is stated you have to be as fast as lightning, saying is metaphorical is pure especulation. Also saying snake way isn't PIS is wrong, since even Roshi displayed better speed VS Krillin. Tao showed better speed as well with the pillar ,etc. So that does not count . and Goku has LS reaction at least in Dragonball has shown several times. Then is implied Lightspeed is slow for him in 23rd Budokai.

So nah I disagree , you're entitled to your opinion, but Z fighters have been ftl at End of Dragonball and Saiyan Saga. Feats and statements proves it. BTW lightning can go as 1/3 of light, so relativistic. And Goku did surpassed lightning, so it doesn't contradict anything.

If Popo's statements indicate that Goku needs to learn how to travel as fast as lightning, then that means that, up to that point, he hasn't learned how to make movements as fast as lightning. Since lightning is slower than light, that means that, at that point, Goku had yet to be able to move as fast as light. So if you believe that Popo's statement was literal, and not just metaphorical, then he wasn't capable of light speed in Dragon Ball.

That was just kid Goku way before 23rd Budokai. After that he surpassed lightning and even Light at the end. The Popo training is not at the end of the manga, if I recall is even before 22nd Budokai, where he does a LS feat.

There are too many indication that he surpassed light via feats. Whether is in the middle is debatable. But at the end is stated light is slow for him and Kami who can oversee the planet from his Temple can't even see Goku and Picolo fight.

Raditz Dodging an ftl/lightspeed beam ,closed the case

[Lord Gogeta]

more feats lightspeed:
口から光線を吐いて辺りを破壊しまくる。 怒り心頭のナッパは強力な光弾を悟飯に向けて放った。

Oh so 悟飯 is Gohan, alright:
He fired a light beam fom his mouth (it says he vomited a light beam, but that doesn't sound really good in English), totally destroying the vicinity. Nappa, heart and mind filled with rage, released powerul light bullets in Gohans direction.
edit: Fixed.

credits
http://www.reddit.com/r/translator/comm ... this_say/


悟空はラディッツの光弾を辛くもかわしたが、ピッコロはよけきれずに左腕を失ってしまう。
Goku dodged barely a light bullets of Raditz, but Piccolo loses his left arm to not completely dodged.

credits:
http://www.reddit.com/r/translator/comm ... this_say/

[Lord Gogeta]

@DarkPrince
My point is, that you should not be surprised by Beerus being MFTL+++, since fodders characters like Raditz were ftl at least in reaction , and Goku had an FTL travel speed feat in Namek. That's all I'm saying

[Darkprince410]

That was just kid Goku way before 23rd Budokai. After that he surpassed lightning and even Light at the end. The Popo training is not at the end of the manga, if I recall is even before 22nd Budokai, where he does a LS feat.

Goku's training with Popo was after the battle with Daimao, which in turn happened after the 22nd Budoukai. The only thing that happened following Goku's training with Popo/Kami was the 23rd Budoukai against Piccolo.

There are too many indication that he surpassed light via feats. Whether is in the middle is debatable. But at the end is stated light is slow for him and Kami who can oversee the planet from his Temple can't even see Goku and Picolo fight.

It's never stated that light was slow for him.

Raditz Dodging an ftl/lightspeed beam ,closed the case

Nothing says that the Makankosappo was the speed of light.

more feats lightspeed:

You do know that they're simply using the term "light" in a descriptive sense, and not saying that those ki blasts were literally light. In many literary examples, I've seen cases of fiery breath (like from dragons) be referred to as "streams of light", yet the fire is in no way actually light, nor is it moving close to the speed of light. So them simply referring to them as beams of light or light bullets isn't actually meaning they're traveling at the speed of light. If anything, it's simply describing their appearance, that it's a beam or a bullet emitting light.

[Lord Gogeta]

The SBC is at least lightspeed as its many times faster then the no name attack that destroyed the moon in 2 seconds and Roshi's KKH. Raditz dodged it.

And it says light , therefore is lightspeed. Unless somehow light in Dragonball doesn't go at that speed minimum.

And yes ,Is stated that Goku thinks his speed is slow . and so does Tien , Goku gets rids of his weight and is more fast, .FTL confirmed .

As for Kid Goku he still relativistic by feats as even lightning can go to such speeds.

[Darkprince410]

The SBC is at least lightspeed as its many times faster then the no name attack that destroyed the moon in 2 seconds and Roshi's KKH. Raditz dodged it.

As myself and others have pointed out, there's no actual frame of reference for how fast those blasts took to reach the Moon. You say it only took 2 seconds because you assume it took 2 seconds, when in reality we don't know how fast it was. Likewise, as it was pointed out, you can still dodge a beam traveling as fast as light and not be as fast as light yourself. If Raditz were shown outpacing the blast, it'd be one thing, but he sidestepped it, which doesn't require faster than light movement.

And it says light , therefore is lightspeed. Unless somehow light in Dragonball doesn't go at that speed minimum.

Provide the actual line, because at no point does he actually say that light appears slow to him.

And yes ,Is stated that Goku thinks his speed is slow . and so does Tenshinhan , Goku gets rids of his weight and is more fast, .FTL confirmed .

How does any of that mean he's faster than light? No one at any point during Dragon Ball states or indicates that Goku is moving faster than light. In fact, no statement is made at all regarding characters moving at light speed or perceiving light as "slow". If such were the case, then this sort of argument wouldn't be an issue, because there'd be direct evidence to use. However, no such statements are made.

As for Kid Goku he still relativistic by feats as even lightning can go to such speeds.

I apologize, but I can't really understand what you're saying here. Given Popo's statements towards Goku, if you deem the "fast as lightning" as literal, rather than metaphorical, then Goku, prior to his training on the Lookout, couldn't be faster than lightning. As such, the whole Taiyo-ken "feat" and things like that from beforehand aren't indicators of him being able to travel at light speed.

[Lord Gogeta]

The SBC is at least lightspeed as its many times faster then the no name attack that destroyed the moon in 2 seconds and Roshi's KKH. Raditz dodged it.

As myself and others have pointed out, there's no actual frame of reference for how fast those blasts took to reach the Moon. You say it only took 2 seconds because you assume it took 2 seconds, when in reality we don't know how fast it was. Likewise, as it was pointed out, you can still dodge a beam traveling as fast as light and not be as fast as light yourself. If Raditz were shown outpacing the blast, it'd be one thing, but he sidestepped it, which doesn't require faster than light movement.

And it says light , therefore is lightspeed. Unless somehow light in Dragonball doesn't go at that speed minimum.

Provide the actual line, because at no point does he actually say that light appears slow to him.

And yes ,Is stated that Goku thinks his speed is slow . and so does Tenshinhan , Goku gets rids of his weight and is more fast, .FTL confirmed .

How does any of that mean he's faster than light? No one at any point during Dragon Ball states or indicates that Goku is moving faster than light. In fact, no statement is made at all regarding characters moving at light speed or perceiving light as "slow". If such were the case, then this sort of argument wouldn't be an issue, because there'd be direct evidence to use. However, no such statements are made.

As for Kid Goku he still relativistic by feats as even lightning can go to such speeds.

I apologize, but I can't really understand what you're saying here. Given Popo's statements towards Goku, if you deem the "fast as lightning" as literal, rather than metaphorical, then Goku, prior to his training on the Lookout, couldn't be faster than lightning. As such, the whole Taiyo-ken "feat" and things like that from beforehand aren't indicators of him being able to travel at light speed.

Is 2 seconds in the anime and in the manga it touches the moon in the same panel, right away. So is FTL in both cases. There are more then enough proof saiyans saga characters are FTL, assuming they are not because you don't agree is totally different.

Here is the statement:
https://youtu.be/JLZwKfvstn4

It clearly shows how Goku was LS yet it was slow for him and Tienshihan .
And no Goku was faster then lightning as popo said . Saying is not literal is especulation. There is nothing contradicting his combat speed as he even had relativistic feats. Several.
Btw The whole point of that training is to get faster. Whoch shows is literal. You don't have to agree with me. But that's a fact. Goku at the Buu saga is by scaling MFTL. Beerus is even faster as he shows in DBS in ep.2
I don't see how you can't even understand that Beerus is that fast since Goku was already mftl. It actually fits

[Lord Gogeta]

Even OBD has Beerus at Billions FTL and they always downplay DBZ^^

[Bando]

-snip-

You are saying because we can not know something definitively, we cannot make logical deductions. I disagree; it just wouldn't be a definitive deduction.

Your past vs future life example does not take into account extraordinary circumstances. Assuming a fairly normal existence, the claim would be ungrounded assumption. If an extraordinarily bad calamity were to befall me, it would be an inference grounded in logic. Please note the lack of the word 'definitive', because definitive inferences don't exist.

And that's why I can logically deduce Uncle Ben is slower than Beeru- I can't bring myself to finish this sentence without cringing, so I won't.

[rereboy]

If you say that you consider Popo's statement as literal, then Goku was several times slower than the speed of light by that point, not faster than light.

Lightning is just a bolt of electricity in the atmosphere, which is nowhere near as fast as light. Lightning speed =/= light speed.

I know it's not anywhere near as fast as light. I was telling God Gogeta that, taking Popo's statement literally (which he, God Gogeta, said was literal) that the statement proves that Goku was far, far slower than light.

Sorry, I understood the opposite.

[Saiyan007]

So let me get something here

If Goku was a real person and he wanted to fight the president you're going to sit there and tell me that the president may or may not be able to beat Goku becuase he hasn't shown the things Goku has been capable of doing?

That's some pretty bad logic based on Goku's capabilities you can logically deduce that the president stands no chance in a fight against Goku.

He hasn't shown the same feats to say he has a chance against Goku

[Darkprince410]

Is 2 seconds in the anime and in the manga it touches the moon in the same panel, right away. So is FTL in both cases. There are more then enough proof saiyans saga characters are FTL, assuming they are not because you don't agree is totally different.

Actually given how the anime shows it, it could easily be far more than 2 seconds. As for the manga, he's firing it in one panel, and we see it reaching the Moon in the second. We don't know the length of time that transpired between him blasting it (the first panel) and it reaching the Moon in the second.

It clearly shows how Goku was LS yet it was slow for him and Tienshihan .

That's not what's said in the original manga. The original manga just has Yamcha stating that it's crazy that they (Goku and Tenshinhan) consider the speed their moving as no big deal. It doesn't mention anything about fast as light or faster than light at all.

And no Goku was faster then lightning as popo said . Saying is not literal is especulation. There is nothing contradicting his combat speed as he even had relativistic feats. Several.

If you're taking Popo's statement as literal, then no, Goku wasn't faster than lightning. By him saying that Goku needs to learn how to make movements as fast as lightning means that Goku was incapable of it beforehand, which means that all those "feats" you're claiming he had prior to his training with Popo weren't actually faster than light feats.

[Kaboom]

The worth or lack thereof in the topic aside, can we make sure to type properly so the points we try to make are at least readable? I'm mostly looking at you, Lord Gogeta.

[dragonballer]

jack chun's kamehameha destroyed the moon in matter of seconds,but i don't know if we can take that seriously ...

can anyone say how fast you have to go to become invisible?

have you guys watched the screw attack's goku vs superman? they used post-kaioh goku as base and came to conclusion that ssj4 is about twice faster than light. let's assume buu arc goku is 10x stronger and gt goku is 8x stronger than z,so ssj4 is about 160x faster than light.

[Lord Gogeta]

@DarkPrince

Nah I disagree ,even in the manga is shown is almost instantly that Picolo destroyed the moon. Is on the same panel, which shows is fast. Usually in Dragonball the alow down the fughts and beams so thw viewer can see, so it probably faster.What proves this is that Kid Gohan detrabaformed right away .Even low balling ,is still relativistic and Raditz dodged a faster one.

Kid Goku did have LS feat, so feats overrides statements. And Goku wasn't learning to be as fast, but to control his movements. And Toei's website said Goku dodged light.
You have to proof that light somehow didn't move at the speed of light.

I agree to disagree ,but facts are facts

[Darkprince410]

Nah I disagree ,even in the manga is shown is almost instantly that Picolo destroyed the moon. Is on the same panel, which shows is fast. Usually in Dragonball the alow down the fughts and beams so thw viewer can see, so it probably faster.What proves this is that Kid Gohan detrabaformed right away .Even low balling ,is still relativistic and Raditz dodged a faster one.

It's not on the same panel though. He's firing it in one panel, and then it's hitting the Moon in a different panel. As such, we don't know the time frame it takes to actually reach the Moon.

Kid Goku did have LS feat, so feats overrides statements. And Goku wasn't learning to be as fast, but to control his movements. And Toei's website said Goku dodged light.
You have to proof that light somehow didn't move at the speed of light.

Both the statement and the feats after said statement support him not being faster than light at that point in the story. In addition, actually give the statement from Toei's site and/or link the page you're pulling that from, because simply saying "so and so site says this" without actually showing the source and the statement doesn't really mean a lot. Anyone can "say" so and so site or so and so source says something, but you need to be able to back that up.

[Bando]

"Still as the sky, quick as lightning."

"Will interpreting this literally confirm Goku's speed? --> Yes. --> It's literal."

Super Saiyan Trunks took several minutes to fly to his house.

"Will this feat make DBZ seem slower than lightspeed? --> Yes. --> It's PIS."

Piccolo's beam destroyed the moon pretty fast.

"Was there a timeframe? --> No. --> If we assume it was instantaneous will it affirm lightspeed DBZ? --> I don't know, I gue- --> It's legit."

[Lord Gogeta]

Nah I disagree ,even in the manga is shown is almost instantly that Picolo destroyed the moon. Is on the same panel, which shows is fast. Usually in Dragonball the alow down the fughts and beams so thw viewer can see, so it probably faster.What proves this is that Kid Gohan detrabaformed right away .Even low balling ,is still relativistic and Raditz dodged a faster one.

It's not on the same panel though. He's firing it in one panel, and then it's hitting the Moon in a different panel. As such, we don't know the time frame it takes to actually reach the Moon.

Kid Goku did have LS feat, so feats overrides statements. And Goku wasn't learning to be as fast, but to control his movements. And Toei's website said Goku dodged light.
You have to proof that light somehow didn't move at the speed of light.

Both the statement and the feats after said statement support him not being faster than light at that point in the story. In addition, actually give the statement from Toei's site and/or link the page you're pulling that from, because simply saying "so and so site says this" without actually showing the source and the statement doesn't really mean a lot. Anyone can "say" so and so site or so and so source says something, but you need to be able to back that up.

Same panel, the beam reached the moon almost at the same time he shot at. And I already have the link about goku being ftl in saiyan saga.

And it doesn't contradict since Lightning can go at relativistic speed. So even low balling Goku's feats is still relativistic. And that's way before Raditz. Sorry but I disagree

And the Video about Goku being lightspeed is from the Japanese anime. So its legit. Sorry but I'm bored now. I've proved he was ftl in Dragonball and you just assumed he was not just because

[rereboy]

Nah I disagree ,even in the manga is shown is almost instantly that Picolo destroyed the moon. Is on the same panel, which shows is fast. Usually in Dragonball the alow down the fughts and beams so thw viewer can see, so it probably faster.What proves this is that Kid Gohan detrabaformed right away .Even low balling ,is still relativistic and Raditz dodged a faster one.

It's not on the same panel though. He's firing it in one panel, and then it's hitting the Moon in a different panel. As such, we don't know the time frame it takes to actually reach the Moon.

Kid Goku did have LS feat, so feats overrides statements. And Goku wasn't learning to be as fast, but to control his movements. And Toei's website said Goku dodged light.
You have to proof that light somehow didn't move at the speed of light.

Both the statement and the feats after said statement support him not being faster than light at that point in the story. In addition, actually give the statement from Toei's site and/or link the page you're pulling that from, because simply saying "so and so site says this" without actually showing the source and the statement doesn't really mean a lot. Anyone can "say" so and so site or so and so source says something, but you need to be able to back that up.

Same panel, the beam reached the moon almost at the same time he shot at. And I already have the link about goku being ftl in saiyan saga.

And it doesn't contradict since Lightning can go at relativistic speed. So even low balling Goku's feats is still relativistic. And that's way before Raditz. Sorry but I disagree

And the Video about Goku being lightspeed is from the Japanese anime. So its legit. Sorry but I'm bored now. I've proved he was ftl in Dragonball and you just assumed he was not just because

Like it has been said: cinematic time.

[Bando]

From what I've read lightning bolts travel at mach 287 downwards and only approach 1/3 the speed of light on the upstroke. For reference relativistic speeds begin at 1/10 the speed of light, or approximately mach 88,000. Not that this matters much; dodging lightning is like dodging lasers in fiction: authors rarely bother to account the physics behind it.

http://www.maine.gov/mema/prepare/prep_ ... tml?163524

It also stands to reason that if the first part of Popo's line (the "still as sky" bit) is metaphor, the second part would be too.

The criteria for what is PIS, cinematic time, or valid in relation to Z's speed is pretty wacky. Every time a travel showing is brought up the plot is blamed, as if Toriyama simply couldn't change the parameters of the plot itself (e.g. make Snakeway a billion kilometers long instead of a million). This is done for the sake of "consistency", which really means "if it doesn't fit with the handpicked fastest showings then it's inconsistent". The "slower" feats clearly outnumber the "consistently" faster ones, which only number at two I think.