What if Faulconer's soundtrack was the original?

[fadeddreams5]

What if Faulconer Production's OST was the original soundtrack in the Japanese version of DBZ (and, as such, most of the rest of the world), and Kikuchi's was what the US got? Do you think people's views would be different towards both soundtracks?

Sometimes I see Faulconer's music criticized, not because of its quality or lack thereof, but because Funimation tampered with a product that didn't need fixing. So what if it was the other way around?

[TheBlackPaladin]

What if Faulconer Production's OST was the original soundtrack in the Japanese version of DBZ (and, as such, most of the rest of the world), and Kikuchi's was what the US got? Do you think people's views would be different towards both soundtracks?

Sometimes I see Faulconer's music criticized, not because of its quality or lack thereof, but because Funimation tampered with a product that didn't need fixing. So what if it was the other way around?

You're certainly right that, in changing the music, FUNimation didn't win a ton of points with people, and that anger over the behind-the-scenes situation probably added to the less-than-favorable reception that Faulconer's score received among fans.

Having said that, if Faulconer's was the original OST....

I can't speak for anybody else, but honestly, I wouldn't have cared much for it. However, that phrasing was chosen very carefully. I didn't say I would have hated it. After all, until 2006, I had no idea that the music was changed at all. So I can still vividly recall a time where I thought the Faulconer score was the original score...and during that stretch of time from 97-06, I didn't think much of the music one way or another. It didn't leave a positive or negative impression with me. Only a tune or two stuck out to me as being memorable (the episode recap/episode title card music, and Ginyu's change attack theme).

Otherwise, everything just kind of blurred together. I mean, I definitely noticed a different take on the music when they switched from the Levi score to the Faulconer score, and I remember thinking that the Faulconer score was a marginal upgrade from what had come before (and one of the few things about the dub that immediately improved upon FUNimation switching to an in-house dub production). That's about it, though. Save a tune here and there, I've never particularly liked synthesizer music, so that genre of music already wasn't my thing to begin with. I didn't watch DBZ for its music, and kind of regarded the score as generic white noise in the background.

Until I heard Kikcuhi.

The only time I remember DBZ's music being memorable was when I heard Kikuchi for the first time, and I never went back. I instantly thought it was much, much better. Partially because I vastly prefer the orchestral genre of music, partially because I felt the moments without music added a whole new level of intensity to the show, and partially because the music itself was just so damn good and well-placed.

Anyway. That's the long answer. The short answer is, "If Faulconer's score was the original, I wouldn't have liked or disliked it...it's something that would have just been, well.....there. *Shrug*"

PS: For what it's worth, while I believe the original score should always be used, I'm not beyond admitting that I like a replacement score better...there's an anime called Cyber City Oedo 808, which used a replacement score that......as much as I hate to admit it, because it was made for all the wrong reasons......I think is vastly superior to the original score by Kazz Toyama.

[VegettoEX]

You have a perfect example in Dragon Ball Kai.

As much as I'll argue that it's NOT a different show (it's the exact same story, same animation, etc.)... it is. It was produced with a different purpose in mind and in different ways. It is what it is.

And it got a replacement soundtrack.

Its replacement soundtrack is -- quite frankly, and disgustingly cheesily enough -- the music of my life. I adore it.

And it shouldn't be there.

I've got a "principle of the matter" mindset there, in that the Yamamoto score was composed for a reason and it belongs in that version of the show for that very purpose in a state of being way: it is what it is. THAT is THAT show. Leave it alone. Even when you replace it with SOMETHING I LOVE, it's not the same show. It's not the same thing that I love being used in the same way that it originally was. Nothing is "right" about it.

(Even though I obviously understand the business practices and legal ramifications going on... but that's separate from an artistic discussion.)

But then there's the other side of "I simply do not like the Faulconer Productions score". I don't like the raw quality of the sound of the music. I find it hollow, like it's missing some piece of its frequency. There's something that's just not there from an audible level. I also don't like the compositions. I don't like the jingles. It's distracting. It's obnoxious. It's not enjoyable. I do not like it and I do not want to listen to it.

(And it's disgusting that I feel I still have to preface/postscript this, but that has NOTHING TO DO with liking or respecting the composers on a fundamental, human level.)

If that was the music of the show, I would have been turned off from the show. That being said, the show, no matter what is done to it, still has its soul intact, so it would have drawn me in somehow... but I probably would have turned to the manga as my medium of enjoyment. Even more so than I have done lately.

[Herms]

The Faulconer soundtrack was the first one I was exposed to, but apart from one or two tracks none of it has stuck with me. Whereas the Kikuchi soundtrack I took an instant shine to once I heard it. So purely as far as personal taste goes, even in wacky bizzaro world I probably wouldn't prefer the Faulconer score.

[Valerius Dover]

Hmm, well, coming in to this much later than most others here, I went into the series knowing very well that it was replacement score (that I even went out of my way to select) so my exposure was very different. On top of that, I had already been exposed to Kikuchi's music through the first series, and Johnson's before I reached Episode 68.

That being said, I actually like Faulconer's score, so I'm not sure if my opinion is worth much. I have yet to see Z with KIkuchi or Kai at all, so I'm not really judging it in comparison to the original. I will, however, provide my theories for how many people think.

There obviously is a negative stigma added when you replace music in the first place. You're removing something that was supposed to be there. With Kai, it's a bit different since that's actually done by the original creators, and not a dubbing company. That being said, most of Sumitomo's music I've noticed has gotten mixed to negative reactions, showing that this isn't an anti-Funi thing here with the music. It's just having your own taste.

I think that makes sense, anyway.

[MrWalnut4]

But then there's the other side of "I simply do not like the Faulconer Productions score". I don't like the raw quality of the sound of the music. I find it hollow, like it's missing some piece of its frequency. There's something that's just not there from an audible level. I also don't like the compositions. I don't like the jingles. It's distracting. It's obnoxious. It's not enjoyable. I do not like it and I do not want to listen to it.

I know exactly what you mean. I've been a musician for about eight years and although I don't claim to be a professional, I know my way around music.

Other than a few exceptions, Faulconer's tracks seem to consist mostly of bass and alto/soprano parts. Very rarely is there more depth than that which leaves out much of the musical range that gives good orchestral music it's depth. When all you have is a drum beat, an occasional bass note and a running alto part you get a very hollow piece of music that doesn't feel substantial when you listen to it. It also doesn't help that it's mostly synth which I still find not to have much depth in the first place.

That's why I love the Yamamoto tracks. Not only are they exclusively (minus a few sparse sound effects) orchestral recordings, but they offer greater range of sound from string bass to oboe. Kikuchi's tracks flourished from the same range of sound. An orchestral track can make me feel sad, anxious, happy, worried, nostalgic etc. It's very difficult to get the same feeling and depth across with the music Faulconer produced for me.

[TheBlackPaladin]

An orchestral track can make me feel sad, anxious, happy, worried, nostalgic etc. It's very difficult to get the same feeling and depth across with the music Faulconer produced for me.

A very interesting explanation, and one that I agree with. I'm not a music guy, and unfortunately, that means my ability to go into the specifics of what I thought could be improved is rather limited (or, at the very least, more limited than I'd prefer).

I liked your whole post because of the detail it went into, but I quoted the last two sentences because it got me thinking about something. I've often noticed that those who still prefer FUNimation's "reversioning" of DBZ are attracted to the idea of DBZ being a relatively simple show, without a bunch of depth to it. It was something that they could sit back, relax, and enjoy without having to think about it too much. So perhaps the Faulconer score's lack of depth appealed to that idea...the idea that DBZ was a relatively simple show. The idea of emotional depth being introduced via an orchestral score may have struck some viewers as foreign and alienating, hence the reason they never gravitated towards it.

Now don't get me wrong, I know that even the original Japanese version is a relatively simple adventure show. We're not dealing with stories and characters as complex as those you might find in, let's say, Neon Genesis Evangelion. However, FUNimation--in their earlier efforts, of course--took out a lot of what depth there was as part of their "reversioning," leading many of the hardcore dub fans to regard the show as simpler than it actually is.

[fadeddreams5]

A lot of great answers here!

To answer my own topic, I'd probably like the Japanese version more than I do now, and question why the English version had to change everything. Basically, I'd do and feel like a lot of Kikuchi fans nowadays. As things stand, I never did care over having a replacement score. But in an opposite scenario, I probably would. Despite the depth and emotion in Kikuchi's soundtrack, it just isn't exciting to me, and kind of makes certain scenes a bit of a drag. This isn't the case with certain other anime released at the time, such as Yu Yu Hakusho (released in the middle of DBZ's Cell saga, I believe), which knew how to crank up the hype levels.

I liked your whole post because of the detail it went into, but I quoted the last two sentences because it got me thinking about something. I've often noticed that those who still prefer FUNimation's "reversioning" of DBZ are attracted to the idea of DBZ being a relatively simple show, without a bunch of depth to it. It was something that they could sit back, relax, and enjoy without having to think about it too much. So perhaps the Faulconer score's lack of depth appealed to that idea...the idea that DBZ was a relatively simple show. The idea of emotional depth being introduced via an orchestral score may have struck some viewers as foreign and alienating, hence the reason they never gravitated towards it.

I wouldn't say the Faulconer score's lack of depth or simplicity appeal to people who see DBZ as a simple show, or that they're turned off by the opposite. I would say these people are simply indifferent over the complexity and quality of a score in an anime; they only care about it sounding good to them (i.e. the jam, not sound quality) or not negatively distracting them from the story (which can be the case with both Faulconer and Kikuchi for many people).

I prefer Faulconer's score, but that's not to say I don't appreciate Kikuchi's, even if I'm not a fan of it, or acknowledge that it has wayyyy more depth than the former. The Faulconer OST also never pauses, such as those scenes that play Bulma and the Frog, as opposed to... nothing at all (where's the silence?!). That said, as a kid, I wasn't aware of any of that. I was first exposed to Ocean's OST, then Kikuchi's, and finally Faulconer's. When I watched Japanese tapes, in my mind, I figured the music was the way it was because the Japanese version predated the US one, which I saw as modern--the original seemed outdated to me, but I accepted that. When I heard Faulconer's OST for the first time, it amped up the excitement of Goku's fight with the Ginyu Force (as did Yamamoto's OST for the scene). I was really, really hyped, and instantly fell in love with that theme. The SSJ theme made its respective scene for me too. Whenever that theme played later on, I'd get goosebumps. lol.

On a side note, I've also seen some argue that the OST replacement changes scenes into ones they were never meant to be, but I disagree over the entire notion of what a scene "was supposed to be." When reading the manga, this stuff is up for interpretation, and the main demographic is probably more fixated on how awesome and angry Goku is, which is the point. In other words, unless Toriyama himself states "this was meant to be like this," each soundtrack works in their own way. For example, Kikuchi's theme during Goku's SSJ3 transformation conveys a sense of terror and mystery because we have no idea what's coming. Faulconer's turns it heroic because Goku, our hero, is ascending to the next level, which he himself states before doing so. Sumitomo makes it chaotic to emphasize the calamity this transformation brings upon the Earth (i.e. tsunamis, earthquakes, etc.). They all do their job well. The difference to me is that the latter two use themes that are good enough to listen to outside the anime, while Kikuchi's isn't fun at all, imo; as a viewer, I get nothing from the theme itself, even if it works perfectly with the scene and accurately conveys what it seeks to.

[thaman91]

On a side note, I've also seen some argue that the OST replacement changes scenes into ones they were never meant to be, but I disagree over the entire notion of what a scene "was supposed to be." When reading the manga, this stuff is up for interpretation, and the main demographic is probably more fixated on how awesome and angry Goku is, which is the point.

I kind of agree with this. In any given scene with dialogue, there can certainly be several valid interpretations of that scene's tone via the music. I don't mind if the music changes the tone of the original, as long as the dialogue is accurate and as long as the original is based off of a manga. If these conditions are met, then the dub becomes another interpretation of that manga.

However, in the case of the original FUNi dub, these conditions were not met, and the dub was not aiming to be a manga interpretation. It was simply an inaccurate re-versioning of the the original show. The dialogue and characterizations were different and Faulconer Productions scored the music to this dialogue. In my opinion, it worked well for the version of the show it was scoring. Actually, I think it works best when paired with dialogue. It's meant to accompany certain types of lines and evoke certain emotions while watching a scene.

But when listened to on its own, the Faulconer music can get kind of stale. This is where I can see what the "lack of depth" arguments are saying. It seems as if a lot of the music has catchy themes, but not much more beyond that. Take the "The Dragon Theme" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqHR2dMTNeM) for instance. It works great when watching the show because it enhances the sense of awe you feel when the dragon comes out and it's catchy. But when listened to on its own, it quickly becomes apparent that this theme is really just the same few notes over and over and over again. It's not telling any kind of musical story on its own. Then take something like "The Victor's Dance" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtevIlwMPEk) from the Yamamoto score. It too is catchy and works well with various scenes in the show. But it has so much more variety and actually seems to be conveying a sequence of different emotions instead of playing the same notes over and over for 3 minutes.

If I were to compare the various scores to types of sweets, I would say:
1.) The Faulconer score is like the Wonka Sweetarts; they taste great at first, but you start to realize that they're a cheap & simple kind of candy and you can feel sick if you have too many.
2.) The Yamamoto score is like the Ferrero Rocher chocolates; they are sweet, but also have a lot of substance (a lot more ingredients than just sugar).
3.) The Kikuchi score is sometimes like the Ferrero Rocher chocolates and at other times like spoiled Ferrero Rocher chocolates that have fungi growing on them; some of them are sweet and have substance, but others have gone bad and are quite nasty despite their numerous ingredients.

[MrWalnut4]

I've often noticed that those who still prefer FUNimation's "reversioning" of DBZ are attracted to the idea of DBZ being a relatively simple show, without a bunch of depth to it. It was something that they could sit back, relax, and enjoy without having to think about it too much. So perhaps the Faulconer score's lack of depth appealed to that idea...the idea that DBZ was a relatively simple show. The idea of emotional depth being introduced via an orchestral score may have struck some viewers as foreign and alienating, hence the reason they never gravitated towards it.

I wouldn't say that an orchestral soundtrack would be alienating, but I somewhat agree with you. I have a few friends who are casual fans of DBZ who do exactly what you said. They enjoy the show as something to kick back and watch without a whole lot of engagement in what is actually going on. The Faulconer tracks do pair well with this type of viewing, but I wouldn't say the tracks were made to simplify DBZ. They were more likely the result of a poor budget than intentionally changing the perception the show.

I wouldn't say the Faulconer score's lack of depth or simplicity appeal to people who see DBZ as a simple show, or that they're turned off by the opposite. I would say these people are simply indifferent over the complexity and quality of a score in an anime; they only care about it sounding good to them (i.e. the jam, not sound quality) or not negatively distracting them from the story (which can be the case with both Faulconer and Kikuchi for many people).

Yep. That's it. Pretty spot on. Also, completely agree with you about rescoring. The only person who knows what score should be in each scene is Akira Toriyama when he was writing the manga, and he probably doesn't even remember.

It seems as if a lot of the music has catchy themes, but not much more beyond that. Take the "The Dragon Theme" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqHR2dMTNeM) for instance. It works great when watching the show because it enhances the sense of awe you feel when the dragon comes out and it's catchy. But when listened to on its own, it quickly becomes apparent that this theme is really just the same few notes over and over and over again. It's not telling any kind of musical story on its own. Then take something like "The Victor's Dance" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtevIlwMPEk) from the Yamamoto score. It too is catchy and works well with various scenes in the show. But it has so much more variety and actually seems to be conveying a sequence of different emotions instead of playing the same notes over and over for 3 minutes.

It really shows when you listen to tracks by themselves. A good score should complement the scene it is accompanying and and be able to stand on it's own. Yamamoto did a very good job with this (even though he plagiarized a lot of his best tracks) and Kikuchi did too, although maybe not quite as well. I love his work, but a couple of Kikuchi's themes are hard to listen to by themselves IMO. *cough*Detekoi Tobikiri ZENKAI Pawā!*cough*

[kenisu3000]

I love his work, but a couple of Kikuchi's themes are hard to listen to by themselves IMO. *cough*Detekoi Tobikiri ZENKAI Pawā!*cough*

Kikuchi had nothing to do with Detekoi Tobikiri ZENKAI Pawaa!. That one was composed by Takeshi Ike.

The songs are a completely separate beast from the score, and whenever melodies from OP and ED songs were used in the incidental score, he was borrowing (honorably) from another composer. (I'm looking through the 5-disc set's booklet right now, and at a quick flip-through, it looks like the only songs Kikuchi composed the music for were Muten Roshi No Oshie and Son Goku Song.)

EDIT: Quick note - I realized what I just typed could be misconstrued. Unless my ears have never caught it, the first DBZ ED's melody never did get used in the score. Throughout the course of his work on the series, Kikuchi used melodies from all of the OP and ED songs except for that one.

[Kakacarrottop]

Then it would be viewed how the Kikuchi score is viewed, instead of being constantly dismissed. And the "replacement" Kikuchi score would probably either be harshly criticized for not matching the tone of the show or it would just go under the radar like most non-Faulconer North American soundtracks have. Interestingly, in India this scenario sort of happened, since their dub originally used a North American soundtrack (the Shuki Levy one) before switching to Kikuchi later on.

[TheBlackPaladin]

I just realized I forgot to answer the second half of the original question (that being, "What if the Kikuchi's score was the replacement score?").

To answer: I wouldn't want it in there, as I don't believe replacement scores should ever be made, but I would begrudgingly like it much better. As I said in my earlier post, I'm not beyond admitting--even if it's reluctantly and begrudgingly--that I like a replacement score better, and I do indeed like Rory McFarlane's replacement score for Cyber City Oedo 808 much, much more than the original score by Kazz Toyama.

[VegettoEX]

I just realized I forgot to answer the second half of the original question (that being, "What if the Kikuchi's score was the replacement score?").

To answer: I wouldn't want it in there, as I don't believe replacement scores should ever be made, but I would begrudgingly like it much better. As I said in my earlier post, I'm not beyond admitting--even if it's reluctantly and begrudgingly--that I like a replacement score better, and I do indeed like Rory McFarlane's replacement score for Cyber City Oedo 808 much, much more than the original score by Kazz Toyama.

Don't be ashamed too much. The 90s Street Fighter II animated movie is not allowed to end with anything other than, "ARE YOU REAAAADAAAYYYYY??!?!?!"

[MajinMan]

If Kikuchi replaced Faulconer....well I don't know honestly. First I would ask why they replaced the score with one that sounds much older, but I wouldn't hate it. That would be one strange world where the Japanese version has Faulconer and the US had Kikuchi. To be honest I don't think I I would convert to the Japanese version if this was the case. I think more people internationally would praise the US soundtrack more than the original haha.

And it's not that Faulconer's all that bad, it just needs to shut up every once in the while and stop being so synth heavy. It's really hard for me to go back and watch dubbed episodes with Faulconer now because it sticks out like a sore thumb and (in my opinion) was made loud on purpose to hide some of the bad voice acting by making it look "badass." Some scenes were done right, like Gohan vs Cell beam struggle, but most weren't. I also feel the reason dub fans judge Kikuchi is because the acting (in the dub) makes it worse. The moments of silence where you randomly hear Vegeta spouting some nonsense where he isn't supposed to talk reveals this, and people blame the ost for being "dull" and "not cool," but when you watch it with the Japanese version it fits and it fits well in my opinion.

So to sum it up I think that I would stick with the replacement score, and call it an improvement over the original. Also the whole line about Funimation "tampering with a product that doesn't need fixing " is dead on. Nobody else did this, why should they? Maybe they wanted it to appeal to little American kids. Or maybe they were just to cheap to get Kikuchi.

[Darkblade1995]

I would probably feel the same way as I do now. I wouldn't like it. I acually grew up with the Faulconer score and while I didn't hate it or anything, but I didn't have any interest in it at all. In 2009, I was watching some downloaded DBZ episodes. It was episode 31 where Goku and Vegeta fight. I was watching the Kamehameha vs. Galick Gun beam struggle, and I heard the Nathan Johnson score (I know, it's not Faulconer, but anyway) and I was like: the music is bland, but I don't really care about it. Not too long after that, I rewatched the same scene but I downloaded the episodes from somewhere else. And that's where I heard the Kikuchi score (this was not the first time I heard anything of Kikuchi, when I was a little kid, my brother downloaded the Garlic jr movie, which had the Ocean dub with Kikuchi's score) and immediately, I was like: holy crap this music is awesome. And that's when I became interested in DBZ's music and found out that DBZ had a US replacement score. I was only 14 at the time, and have been a fan for like 9 years up that point, so I was pretty disappointed in myself for not knowing this a lot sooner.

[TheBlackPaladin]

Don't be ashamed too much. The 90s Street Fighter II animated movie is not allowed to end with anything other than, "ARE YOU REAAAADAAAYYYYY??!?!?!"

Haha, well in all honesty, I haven't seen that movie yet, but I do know that the soundtrack was replaced, and I am familiar with how commonly it is brought up in the many "soundtrack debates" that we see among anime fans. I feel like now I have to see it!

Nobody else did this, why should they? Maybe they wanted it to appeal to little American kids. Or maybe they were just to cheap to get Kikuchi.

Those are factors, yes, but more than anything else, it was to create another revenue stream for themselves. Royalties have to be paid for every second a piece of music is used, which may also provide another explanation for why the replacement scores almost never had any moments of silence. So, FUNimaton actually stood to gain financially from a replacement score. From an artistic perspective, creating a new score made no sense at all, but from a financial perspective...for that matter, from the financial perspective of a company that, at the time, didn't have much money...it made all the sense in the world.

[MagicBox]

The show is the show is the show is the show. You don't go around replacing random things within the show to make it "better." You leave things alone. If you've somehow got this whole 'nother musical score sitting around, make a new show to go with it.

I dislike replacement scores. I may love Kikuchi and dislike Yamamoto, but Kai was produced with the Yamamoto music in mind and should be viewed as such. I also dislike Sumitomo's music for Kai (and so far, Super). Does that mean it (they) should get a replacement score? Nope! That's just the show. This show we like has crappy music. It happens. We'll just have to try our luck with another show someday. If the original Japanese version of Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z had been produced with the Faulconer Productions score from the get-so, then yes, I would probably still enjoy Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z. I just wouldn't be all that crazy about the music. I'd go around saying the exact same things I'm currently saying about Kai and Super.

"This show I like has crappy music."

Note: The "I like" part may not necessarily apply to Kai.

[EXBadguy]

"If Kikuchi's was the replacement, then I'd be glad that they did it, cuz Falconer sounds too "bad ass" and uses too much synth! More tambourines!" That's what I thought I was gonna see in this thread!

Alright, playtime's over. Anyway, for me, if it was the other way around, then I'd still prefer the Falconerr, though like others said, the problem with Falconer's music is that it never shuts up, so I'd see why some folks would prefer the replacement which is "right on the monnaaay". Even though I still think half Kikuchi's Z soundtrack is boring and generic(using the same F notes mostly) , I respect it more now for its dynamics and it's suspense.

[DoomieDoomie911]

I would more than likely still prefer the Kikuchi score. It's just superior, in my opinion. It really wouldn't matter if it was the original or not; what's better is better.

Also, as other people have said above, I don't like replacement scores in the first place. Just like renaming characters, there's absolutely no reason for it.