Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
fadeddreams5 wrote:It's not that I see or don't see Goku as Asian, but I think the right Asian can pull off the look better than any other.
but....why? doesn't that imply that you DO see Goku as Asian? I'm not saying that's wrong; Goku is a nearly featureless anime character that can look like anyone. But why couldn't a white or black or anything also pull off "the look"? I don't think having a preference is automatically racist, But we should wait to see how good of an actor they are before dismissing them.
No. It's just personal preference. I say it because of Goku's iconic hair. Most Asians have amazing hair, and can pull off any bizarre style. All about that hair, yo. They also look cooler doing martial arts stuff, imo. I'm not saying only Asians could act the part well though.
A Caucasian American as Goku seems so silly to me, especially after that Evolution garbage. Ironically, I grew up seeing Goku as white cause I could relate more (though I'm white hispanic). And a black dude playing an iconic white-skinned character created in Japan with hair they'll simply never be able to pull off one way or another is worse. Krillin, Tien, Mr. Satan, or Piccolo could be black, and I would not mind one bit. Hell, I'd want the latter to be played by an African American. Again, just personal preference.
Last edited by fadeddreams5 on Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super
I'm a black person and I most say that this is a very stupid discussion.
Goku shouldn't be black, he isn't black, an adaptation should try and stick as close as it can to the source material Goku being black flies against the face of this simple and logical request.
Cherry picking examples where it looks like Goku has a tan is down right moronic. All I'm seeing here is a pathetic attempt for the OP to try and take the moral high ground because he/she is so 'progressive'. Seriously get over yourself.
I think Goku should be portrayed as Asian or Eurasian, the closest Goku has to an RL ethnicity is Chinese. He shouldnt be portrayed as white or black.
I also think Johnny Storm being changed from white to black is a stupid and unnecessary change.
The Monkey King wrote:I'm a black person and I most say that this is a very stupid discussion.
Goku shouldn't be black, he isn't black, an adaptation should try and stick as close as it can to the source material Goku being black flies against the face of this simple and logical request.
Cherry picking examples where it looks like Goku has a tan is down right moronic. All I'm seeing here is a pathetic attempt for the OP to try and take the moral high ground because he/she is so 'progressive'. Seriously get over yourself.
I think Goku should be portrayed as Asian or Eurasian, the closest Goku has to an RL ethnicity is Chinese. He shouldnt be portrayed as white or black.
I also think Johnny Storm being changed from white to black is a stupid and unnecessary change.
Nah, the OP, yours truly, just realizes that Goku does not have any specific, single skin color. Not even in the anime. You look at DB and DBZ, he's light but then darker in GT?
How is it "down right moronic" to give examples for an argument? When I write anything that I want somebody to believe, I like to reinforce my points with proof of what I'm talking about. I see it no different from writing a paper. Only reason I didn't make it longer was because I doubted people would want to read paragraphs of me making the same point which is that you cannot rule out him as being black because this all lies on interpretation and from those images from the manga, I interpreted him as having an appearance similar to an African-American.
How dare you insult me for trying to back my argument up with fact. I didn't change those pictures. They are what they are. I didn't edit GT and make him darker. That was all there. I'll get over myself when you see for yourself why I feel the way I do.
Also, no Earthling in the series every claims that Goku doesn't look human (aside from the tail), so the "b-b-but he's an alien!" argument really doesn't hold water.
It really does. Africans, which includes African-Americans, are human. You just made my point for me. They look human and so does he so how does my argument not "hold water"?
To stop weird stuff of happening... Do you know the basic cliché manga look?
The characters having big eyes and looking more caucasian than japanese, which is why it has such appeal in the west.
But, it's the way how japanese actually are portrayed in the manga, as 'duh' the target audience of the manga are Japanese.
And manga still is done for the Japanese audience in the first place, even tough lot of fans from west would like to claim an importance.
So, in return to Dragon Ball, we can assume, then if everyone there are Japanese (which someone will rule out thanks to the more narrow eyes and style of clothing of Androids - but well, Goku and his grandpa's style is also Chinese...),
Goku is portrayed the same way that they are, including Vegeta, Nappa and all of their families... If we asume that they are Caucasian, then the same outcome...
And yeah, Goku is darker on some manga images, as well as some Caucasian people of mixed ancestry are darker, some hispanic people are darker and lot of Asians to are darker.
So why there would be African Goku? To get African people to get attached to him? Really?
That is so twisted. It would be like me, chosing my friends based on their heritage. Or not liking Batman, because he's American, and I am not.
MCDaveG wrote:To stop weird stuff of happening... Do you know the basic cliché manga look?
The characters having big eyes and looking more caucasian than japanese, which is why it has such appeal in the west.
But, it's the way how japanese actually are portrayed in the manga, as 'duh' the target audience of the manga are Japanese.
And manga still is done for the Japanese audience in the first place, even tough lot of fans from west would like to claim an importance.
So, in return to Dragon Ball, we can assume, then if everyone there are Japanese (which someone will rule out thanks to the more narrow eyes and style of clothing of Androids - but well, Goku and his grandpa's style is also Chinese...),
Goku is portrayed the same way that they are, including Vegeta, Nappa and all of their families... If we asume that they are Caucasian, then the same outcome...
And yeah, Goku is darker on some manga images, as well as some Caucasian people of mixed ancestry are darker, some hispanic people are darker and lot of Asians to are darker.
So why there would be African Goku? To get African people to get attached to him? Really?
That is so twisted. It would be like me, chosing my friends based on their heritage. Or not liking Batman, because he's American, and I am not.
I just can't support this trend.
I'm sure there are plenty of African-Americans that are fans of the franchise. I'm not suggesting it to get them attached, but I am saying that discriminating against actors simply for them being black is wrong. If a particular actor is black and you feel that one couldn't resemble the character in any way, then fine.
I don't buy a black Goku. I don't think I'm doing the franchise a disservice by having that opinion :/ Props for posting a unique topic though! Not sure I have much to contribute to this lol
MCDaveG wrote:To stop weird stuff of happening... Do you know the basic cliché manga look?
The characters having big eyes and looking more caucasian than japanese, which is why it has such appeal in the west.
But, it's the way how japanese actually are portrayed in the manga, as 'duh' the target audience of the manga are Japanese.
And manga still is done for the Japanese audience in the first place, even tough lot of fans from west would like to claim an importance.
So, in return to Dragon Ball, we can assume, then if everyone there are Japanese (which someone will rule out thanks to the more narrow eyes and style of clothing of Androids - but well, Goku and his grandpa's style is also Chinese...),
Goku is portrayed the same way that they are, including Vegeta, Nappa and all of their families... If we asume that they are Caucasian, then the same outcome...
And yeah, Goku is darker on some manga images, as well as some Caucasian people of mixed ancestry are darker, some hispanic people are darker and lot of Asians to are darker.
So why there would be African Goku? To get African people to get attached to him? Really?
That is so twisted. It would be like me, chosing my friends based on their heritage. Or not liking Batman, because he's American, and I am not.
I just can't support this trend.
I'm sure there are plenty of African-Americans that are fans of the franchise. I'm not suggesting it to get them attached, but I am saying that discriminating against actors simply for them being black is wrong. If a particular actor is black and you feel that one couldn't resemble the character in any way, then fine.
So if I am going to do a movie about a Ronin Samurai in feudal Japan and there comes this talented African actor and I deny him the part, because, Samurai just weren't Africans... Is that a discrimination?
Please, elaborate.
Ryuji-Otogi wrote:I don't buy a black Goku. I don't think I'm doing the franchise a disservice by having that opinion :/ Props for posting a unique topic though! Not sure I have much to contribute to this lol
It's fine that you don't. I just hope you understand why I feel the way I do about this.
MCDaveG wrote:
SSJ Human wrote:
MCDaveG wrote:To stop weird stuff of happening... Do you know the basic cliché manga look?
The characters having big eyes and looking more caucasian than japanese, which is why it has such appeal in the west.
But, it's the way how japanese actually are portrayed in the manga, as 'duh' the target audience of the manga are Japanese.
And manga still is done for the Japanese audience in the first place, even tough lot of fans from west would like to claim an importance.
So, in return to Dragon Ball, we can assume, then if everyone there are Japanese (which someone will rule out thanks to the more narrow eyes and style of clothing of Androids - but well, Goku and his grandpa's style is also Chinese...),
Goku is portrayed the same way that they are, including Vegeta, Nappa and all of their families... If we asume that they are Caucasian, then the same outcome...
And yeah, Goku is darker on some manga images, as well as some Caucasian people of mixed ancestry are darker, some hispanic people are darker and lot of Asians to are darker.
So why there would be African Goku? To get African people to get attached to him? Really?
That is so twisted. It would be like me, chosing my friends based on their heritage. Or not liking Batman, because he's American, and I am not.
I just can't support this trend.
I'm sure there are plenty of African-Americans that are fans of the franchise. I'm not suggesting it to get them attached, but I am saying that discriminating against actors simply for them being black is wrong. If a particular actor is black and you feel that one couldn't resemble the character in any way, then fine.
So if I am going to do a movie about a Ronin Samurai in feudal Japan and there comes this talented African actor and I deny him the part, because, Samurai just weren't Africans... Is that a discrimination?
Please, elaborate.
Depends on your reasons. Since the Samurai was another race, then it's fine, but that's my point. Goku is an alien. I don't know any aliens that can play the part so we have to use people. The show has him light, until GT while the manga consistently has him darker in colored images so why can't we use Africans for that?
Again, Toriyama already put Black people in the franchise and he made them nothing like Goku. And again the alien argument is a moot point since no one whether in the real world or in the Dragon World ever thought that Goku didn't look like a regular human.
And good luck finding an African-American who could pull off something ressembling Goku's straight hair.
Spoiler:
Marco Polo wrote:
RedRibbonSoldier#42 wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:It's not that I see or don't see Goku as Asian, but I think the right Asian can pull off the look better than any other.
but....why? doesn't that imply that you DO see Goku as Asian? I'm not saying that's wrong; Goku is a nearly featureless anime character that can look like anyone. But why couldn't a white or black or anything also pull off "the look"? I don't think having a preference is automatically racist, But we should wait to see how good of an actor they are before dismissing them.
Here are two Black characters in the series:
Tell me Goku looks closer to these characters than to an Asian.
Also, no Earthling in the series every claims that Goku doesn't look human (aside from the tail), so the "b-b-but he's an alien!" argument really doesn't hold water.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super
Marco Polo wrote:Again, Toriyama already put Black people in the franchise and he made them nothing like Goku. And again the alien argument is a moot point since no one whether in the real world or in the Dragon World ever thought that Goku didn't look like a regular human.
And good luck finding an African-American who could pull off something ressembling Goku's straight hair.
But you still keep making my point for me which is that you cannot rule out a black person for the simple fact that Goku has no predefined race that he must be portrayed as.
Shouldn't be hard. We're capable of doing anything.
Marco Polo wrote:Again, Toriyama already put Black people in the franchise and he made them nothing like Goku. And again the alien argument is a moot point since no one whether in the real world or in the Dragon World ever thought that Goku didn't look like a regular human.
And good luck finding an African-American who could pull off something ressembling Goku's straight hair.
But you still keep making my point for me which is that you cannot rule out a black person for the simple fact that Goku has no predefined race that he must be portrayed as.
Shouldn't be hard. We're capable of doing anything.
No, my point is no one cares what race Goku is. What everyone cares about is that the actor playing Goku looks like Goku and not Star Officer Black or "Killa", since they looked diferent in the original work.
Marco Polo wrote:Again, Toriyama already put Black people in the franchise and he made them nothing like Goku. And again the alien argument is a moot point since no one whether in the real world or in the Dragon World ever thought that Goku didn't look like a regular human.
And good luck finding an African-American who could pull off something ressembling Goku's straight hair.
But you still keep making my point for me which is that you cannot rule out a black person for the simple fact that Goku has no predefined race that he must be portrayed as.
Shouldn't be hard. We're capable of doing anything.
No, my point is no one cares what race Goku is. What everyone cares about is that the actor playing Goku looks like Goku and not Star Officer Black or "Killa", since they looked diferent in the original work.
That's not valid in the slightest. This thread's creation was the result of backlash from people who outright said they would not want an African-American to play the character for the simple fact that he, whoever it would be, is black which is discrimination. If the actor does not look like the character in any way, then that's a different story, but ruling them out just because of their race is ridiculous.
Unless its something like Attack on Titan, which clearly labels what race all of the main characters are and is part of the story, I don't care. Goku being black is fine by me as long as it's a good actor. The real issue is figuring out how to make a Dragon Ball movie that wouldn't suck.
Also on the whole "how will they do his hair?" thing, wigs exist, or they could just not even worry about that.
SSJ Human wrote:That's not valid in the slightest. This thread's creation was the result of backlash from people who outright said they would not want an African-American to play the character for the simple fact that he, whoever it would be, is black which is discrimination. If the actor does not look like the character in any way, then that's a different story, but ruling them out just because of their race is ridiculous.
But they're ruling them out because Goku isn't black. It just wouldn't feel right. That's the whole point.
Cipher wrote:Dragon Ball is the story of a kind-hearted, excitable child who uses the power of friendship to improve those around him as he grows into a dangerous obsessive who sometimes accidentally saves the world.
Marco Polo wrote:I can't wait for Wesley Snipes with a wig as Goku's brother Raditz.
They could just have short hair, appearance isn't the biggest part about these characters. The thing is, Dragon Ball Z as it is would probably be on par with those Resident Evil movies no one wants to talk about. There would probably be a bunch of changes to make DBZ an experience that audiences would respond to to in a live action 2 hour movie format, and if Goku just happens to be black in it, there'd probably be a lot more stuff different to nitpick at. That said, I'm against the idea of making Goku black just to make Goku black. Representation is cool, but some of it in a lot of these modern blockbusters feels so shoehorned in. It SHOULD be down to who the best actor for the role is.
I'm gonna be the Uncle Tom/Ruckus here and say that Goku should NEVER be portrayed by a black actor, I mean, have you even see any black dudes with gelled-up spiky hair? Shiiiit, people would've "WORLDSTAR" on that!
At best, an asian or a mixed actor can fit for Goku and a black actor can fit for either General Black or Namekians(so they can talk about their BBC/BGC all damn day. And no, I'm not talking about the British Broadcasting Corporation. )
Marco Polo wrote:I can't wait for Wesley Snipes with a wig as Goku's brother Raditz.
Raditz: Kakarrot, I am your brother!
Goku: Shut up! That's not true! You're black!
Raditz: Well...didn't you remember when you grandfather dipped you into a creamy liquid changer to turn your skin white!? TRY TO REMEMBER KAKKAROT!!
Last edited by EXBadguy on Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Akira Toriyama wrote:If anyone. ANYONE AT TOEI! Makes a movie about old and weak major villains returning, or making recolored versions of Super Saiyan, I'ma come to yo company and evict you from doing Dragon Ball ever again! Only I do those things, because people love me, and they despise you....derp!
Marco Polo wrote:Goku Black is a fan of DBZ who hates Super and has taken the form of a younger Goku (thinner shape, softer hair) to avenge the original series by destroying the new.
