SSJGSSJ vs. SSJG

[Low Tone G]

I really think that Toriyama meant that Goku can transform into a God via that ritual... I'm certain that He wanted to point out that Goku is a genius and absorbed the godly power, so he doesn't need that ritual anymore. And I wanted to make an attempt to explain why did Goku's Golden SSJ change to a blue one, having both God power at disposal. I think that the full recovering of the God Ki changed Goku's Golden SSJ into a blue one. So I think that Goku's God power did decreased a bit when he lost that red form, so by training he could fill the remaining gap, so in that moment his Golden SSJ from BoG transformed into a Blue one. So that's why I think that Goku's Blue SSJ at the beginning was equal with his Super Saiyan God.

Toriyama clearly says that he doesn't need to transform into a Super Saiyan God anymore, not just through the ritual, and the movie is almost as clear about that as well.

He doesn't specify how could Goku transform into a God once again, so I think the most sense the ritual would make. Yeah, Goku did transform once again in the movie, but without knowing how he did it. I'm still more inclined to believe that wanted to point out that Goku is a prodigy to not need the ritual as he has the God power in base.

[Alondite]

My impression?

Based on the slight explanations we've received about the forms, I get the impression that

(all percentages, except the first, are simply estimates. They show, however, where I think these powers/forms fall in order, just not to skill)
-The Ritual initially grants the recipient of the power the form, Super Saiyan God (which is 100% of the Super Saiyan God's power).
-Once the Ritual expires, the Saiyan might retain a portion of that power if he is a genius fighter, such as Goku or Vegeta. (~70% of the SSG's Power)
-These fighters can sometimes [usually unintentionally] tap into this power in their new base form, flashing back into the Red-Haired form as Goku did when struggling with Beerus' blast. (between 80 and 90% of the SSG's Power)
-If a Saiyan retains the power of the SSG AND is capable of transforming into a Super Saiyan, such as Goku and Vegeta, he can tap a larger portion of the original power by essentially combining the Super Saiyan transformation with the remaining SSG power. This essentially channels most, if not all of the original SSG power. (between 95% and 99% of the SSG's Power).

That said, I think that FnF SSGSS Goku (and FnF SSGSS Vegeta) are stronger than BOG SSG Goku. Not because SSGSS is greater than SSG, but because the two have completed training as Gods at that point.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He doesn't specify how could Goku transform into a God once again, so I think the most sense the ritual would make. Yeah, Goku did transform once again in the movie, but without knowing how he did it. I'm still more inclined to believe that wanted to point out that Goku is a prodigy to not need the ritual as he has the God power in base.

What does the way Goku transforms have to do with anything? Toriyama says that Goku doesn't need the form anymore, and Beerus implies the same, since he says that his power decreased insignificantly when he went from God to base. We see in FnF that base to SSGSS is a significant increase, which means that SSGSS is stronger than SSG.

[Alondite]

He doesn't specify how could Goku transform into a God once again, so I think the most sense the ritual would make. Yeah, Goku did transform once again in the movie, but without knowing how he did it. I'm still more inclined to believe that wanted to point out that Goku is a prodigy to not need the ritual as he has the God power in base.

What does the way Goku transforms have to do with anything? Toriyama says that Goku doesn't need the form anymore, and Beerus implies the same, since he says that his power decreased insignificantly when he went from God to base. We see in FnF that base to SSGSS is a significant increase, which means that SSGSS is stronger than SSG.

If Goku is a 6 to Beerus' 10, and Goku drops to a 4/5 thats an insignificant difference to Beerus, yet represents a 16.66% or 33.33% change to Goku (respectively). I don't think Base Goku = SSG Goku, or else he wouldn't have flared into Red-Hair mode while trying to deflect Beerus' blast.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If Goku is a 6 to Beerus' 10, and Goku drops to a 4/5 thats an insignificant difference to Beerus, yet represents a 16.66% or 33.33% change to Goku (respectively).

But a 4 or 5 is a significant decrease. For example, Vegeta was at 24.000 in Namek arc, and he was much stronger than Dodoria & Zarbon (base), who were at 22.000 & 23.000 respectively.

I don't think Base Goku = SSG Goku, or else he wouldn't have flared into Red-Hair mode while trying to deflect Beerus' blast.

I think it happened only to show us that Goku can still transform on his own, even though he doesn't need to. It's not like Goku transformed consciously, he got angry and transformed into his strongest form, which was Super Saiyan God, even though it's only a little stronger than his base.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

But a 4 or 5 is a significant decrease. For example, Vegeta was at 24.000 in Namek arc, and he was much stronger than Dodoria & Zarbon (base), who were at 22.000 & 23.000 respectively.

Could be a loss of Shouki and Yuuki (really hope I spelled those right). I personally just go with them being 20k/21k.

I agree the difference between a 4 and 5 is big though. That's like Monster Zarbon and Vegeta round 1.

[Alondite]

If Goku is a 6 to Beerus' 10, and Goku drops to a 4/5 thats an insignificant difference to Beerus, yet represents a 16.66% or 33.33% change to Goku (respectively).

But a 4 or 5 is a significant decrease. For example, Vegeta was at 24.000 in Namek arc, and he was much stronger than Dodoria & Zarbon (base), who were at 22.000 & 23.000 respectively.

I don't think Base Goku = SSG Goku, or else he wouldn't have flared into Red-Hair mode while trying to deflect Beerus' blast.

I think it happened only to show us that Goku can still transform on his own, even though he doesn't need to. It's not like Goku transformed consciously, he got angry and transformed into his strongest form, which was Super Saiyan God, even though it's only a little stronger than his base.

"To Beerus" is the most important modifer in that sentence, and it's the only part you seemed to gently gloss over. If I'm a 6, yeah I'm leagues above a 4 or a 5.

If I'm a 10, the difference from a 6 and a 5/4 is going to be insignificant to me.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

"To Beerus" is the most important modifer in that sentence, and it's the only part you seemed to gently gloss over. If I'm a 6, yeah I'm leagues above a 4 or a 5.

If I'm a 10, the difference from a 6 and a 5/4 is going to be insignificant to me.

But this isn't what Beerus said, he said that Goku's power didn't have a significant decrease. It has nothing to do with how strong Beerus is.

[Alondite]

"To Beerus" is the most important modifer in that sentence, and it's the only part you seemed to gently gloss over. If I'm a 6, yeah I'm leagues above a 4 or a 5.

If I'm a 10, the difference from a 6 and a 5/4 is going to be insignificant to me.

But this isn't what Beerus said, he said that Goku's power didn't have a significant decrease. It has nothing to do with how strong Beerus is.

I don't know if you're doing this intentionally or if you're sincerely not understanding what I'm saying here...

Let's say I bench press 500 lbs (the equivalent of Beerus' "10"). let's say you bench press 300 lbs (the equivalent of goku's "6).

If you slack off a couple of weeks and drop to bench pressing 250 lbs. that's a huge drop to you, yet both numbers hover in the halfway range of my bench pressing score, so I might make a comment like "that's not a significant change". Because, in proportion to MY power, it's not a significant change.

If you can't understand it when I put it like that, I guess it just can't be explained to you.

If you think it isn't applicable, I argue that Beerus is the one saying and, therefore, it is most likely that he would be using his own power as a scale rather than goku's.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I understand what you are saying. I just think that this logic is false. Beerus wasn't talking about how he compares with God Goku & base/SS Goku, he was talking about how base/SS Goku compares to God Goku. Goku didn't even notice that he was changing forms, meaning that his power was around the same, which fits with what Beerus says about the decrease being insignificant, and Toriyama's comment about Goku not needing Super Saiyan God anymore, before SSGSS. Beerus' power has nothing to do with this.

[Alondite]

I understand what you are saying. I just think that this logic is false. Beerus wasn't talking about how he compares with God Goku & base/SS Goku, he was talking about how base/SS Goku compares to God Goku.

I love how you say this like its a flat out, indisputable fact with no alternative, even though it's incredibly common for a speaker to use terms relative to himself/herself.

Do you expect everyone to add "to me" when they make statements about something be insignificant? There were numerous times Freeza referred to the z fighters / saiyans as weak or insignicant, even though they were powerful relative to the universe. Why? Because naturally, frieza was saying they were weak / insignificant "to him".

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I love how you say this like its a flat out, indisputable fact with no alternative, even though it's incredibly common for a speaker to use terms relative to himself/herself.

Do you expect everyone to add "to me" when they make statements about something be insignificant? There were numerous times Freeza referred to the z fighters / saiyans as weak or insignicant, even though they were powerful relative to the universe. Why? Because naturally, Freeza was saying they were weak / insignificant "to him".

But this is different. Freeza is talking about how he compares to others, Beerus doesn't compare himself with Goku. He says that the decrease was insignificant, not that the decrease was insignificant to him.

And it's not just have Beerus' comment. Toriyama says that Goku no longer needs to transform into a Super Saiyan God. Why would he say that when Goku can still transform on his own, as we saw in the movie? And he is talking about Goku before SSGSS. He says that after seeing the movie, we will probably understand that Goku no longer needs the form. How do we understand this? Goku can still fight evenly with Beerus after reverting to base & transform into a SS, implying that his power barely decreased, and then Beerus states that Goku's power decrease after SSG ended was insignificant, confirming the reason Goku could still fight evenly with him. Then Toriyama goes ahead himself and confirms, for those who haven't gotten it yet, that Super Saiyan God is useless now, in fact, Goku no longer needs to transform into a SS/2/3/God, these transformations no longer give him any significant increase. And then, in FnF, he discovers a new form to increase his power, by combining Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God: Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

[Alondite]

I love how you say this like its a flat out, indisputable fact with no alternative, even though it's incredibly common for a speaker to use terms relative to himself/herself.

Do you expect everyone to add "to me" when they make statements about something be insignificant? There were numerous times Freeza referred to the z fighters / saiyans as weak or insignicant, even though they were powerful relative to the universe. Why? Because naturally, Freeza was saying they were weak / insignificant "to him".

But this is different. Freeza is talking about how he compares to others, Beerus doesn't compare himself with Goku. He says that the decrease was insignificant, not that the decrease was insignificant to him.

No, it's not different. It is literally exactly the same. Lmao.

And it's not just have Beerus' comment. Toriyama says that Goku no longer needs to transform into a Super Saiyan God.

Given the context, I took that to mean the entire ritual needn't be repeated.

Why would he say that when Goku can still transform on his own, as we saw in the movie? And he is talking about Goku before SSGSS. He says that after seeing the movie, we will probably understand that Goku no longer needs the form. How do we understand this? Goku can still fight evenly with Beerus after reverting to base & transform into a SS, implying that his power barely decreased, and then Beerus states that Goku's power decrease after SSG ended was insignificant, confirming the reason Goku could still fight evenly with him. Then Toriyama goes ahead himself and confirms, for those who haven't gotten it yet, that Super Saiyan God is useless now, in fact, Goku no longer needs to transform into a SS/2/3/God, these transformations no longer give him any significant increase. And then, in FnF, he discovers a new form to increase his power, by combining Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God: Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

I mean, from only the things I've seen, virtually none of what you said in this block is true. Could you post the source on that? I might have simply not seen this myself, but this is the first in hearing of any of that.



My biggest problem with the idea that Base Form = SSG stems from the fact that te transformations are still used.

If Base Form is as strong as Super Saiyan God, why would straining against Beerus' blast and pushing himself to/beyond his limits cause him to transform? If Base Form is as strong as Super Saiyan God, why would Goku bother perfecting a technique/transformation that allows him to channel the God form without the ritual? What's the point of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan at all if the difference from base form is "insignificant"?

I mean, I have no problem with Base Form retaining most of the power, like 70-80%. But to make the claim that Base Goku would virtually stalemate or draw SSG / SSGSS Goku is just a strange thing for me. Is the shiny hair and aura just fan service for dramatic effect, in your opinion?

[Low Tone G]

I mean, I have no problem with Base Form retaining most of the power, like 70-80%. But to make the claim that Base Goku would virtually stalemate or draw SSG / SSGSS Goku is just a strange thing for me. Is the shiny hair and aura just fan service for dramatic effect, in your opinion?

I share the opinion that Blue color is just a fan service. It doesn't really makes sense that Goku's SSJ should turn blue just because it channels God power, specially we already saw the example of Goku turning SSJ being with God power, still remaining Golden in color. The most sense it would make that Goku decreased in power a bit 1-5% from his God self and after recovering the gap by training his SSJ turned blue as the result. So I can agree with the statement of Toriyama that Goku doesn't need to turn SSJ-God anymore as the decrease was insignificant, but it was still present, so returning to that power level that Goku possessed in red the God form his simple SSJ went blue. There was a statement of Toriyama saying that Goku realized after the battle with Beerus that training his base+SSJ would raise his power level better than the other SSJ2&3 forms, so I guess the phenomenon with the Saiyan Beyond God and Blue SSJ is just the condition of gaining higher power levels as Gods for both Goku and Vegeta. I can also imagine that the Saiyan beyond God form is just the "container" of the absorbed God power and the further gains can be tapped into the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan state making the form stronger than Saiyan beyond God state.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No, it's not different. It is literally exactly the same. Lmao.

No, it isn't. Beerus describes what happened to Goku's power. I don't understand how you interpret it like "You were trash before, you are trash again". If what you say was the case, then Beerus would have said "Your power decreased significanly, but it's still insignificant in front of me". Actually, it doesn't even make sense for Beerus to make such a comment when Goku's power had decreased. If it was an increase, then maybe, if it was worded properly. But why would he make succh a comment

Given the context, I took that to mean the entire ritual needn't be repeated.

No, Toriyama literaly says that he doesn't need to transform.

I mean, from only the things I've seen, virtually none of what you said in this block is true. Could you post the source on that? I might have simply not seen this myself, but this is the first in hearing of any of that.

You haven't seen the fight between Goku & Beerus in BoG, which shows Base/SS/God in the same level? You haven't seen Beerus' line about Goku getting an insignificant decrease in power? You haven't read Toriyama's interview where he says that Goku no longer needs to transform into a God?

My biggest problem with the idea that Base Form = SSG stems from the fact that te transformations are still used.

But first, we have to sit down and think: why were they used?

Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan without even realizing it, after getting angy & more aggresive, he didn't transform willingly to increase his power. Out-of-universe answer, Toriyama said that he wanted Goku to fight as a Super Saiyan in the final fight.

Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan God, again without realizing it, after going all-out to stop Beerus' attack, and again, he didn't transform willingly to increase his power. Out-of-universe answer, he transformed probably in order to show us that he can transform on his own and doesn't need the ritual anymore.

In FnF, he abandons these forms, and only uses base & SSGSS.

[Alondite]

No, it's not different. It is literally exactly the same. Lmao.

No, it isn't. Beerus describes what happened to Goku's power. I don't understand how you interpret it like "You were trash before, you are trash again". If what you say was the case, then Beerus would have said "Your power decreased significanly, but it's still insignificant in front of me". Actually, it doesn't even make sense for Beerus to make such a comment when Goku's power had decreased. If it was an increase, then maybe, if it was worded properly. But why would he make succh a comment

Its pretty much common knowledge that when someone says something is insignificant, they're more likely saying its insignificant to them than insignificant in scale to all other things. I just don't know how else to explain that to you.

The modifier "compared to the level you were at" or "compared to everything else" is more necessary than the modifier "to me" in all cases. Beerus is no exception.

Given the context, I took that to mean the entire ritual needn't be repeated.

No, Toriyama literaly says that he doesn't need to transform.

Citation needed.

I mean, from only the things I've seen, virtually none of what you said in this block is true. Could you post the source on that? I might have simply not seen this myself, but this is the first in hearing of any of that.

You haven't seen the fight between Goku & Beerus in BoG, which shows Base/SS/God in the same level?

Well SS is not related to our conversation at all, so the fact that you'd bring it up means either you're throwing in extraneous details to make it sound like you're supporting your argument, or you're confused as to what's being argued in the first place.

As far as the same level, no. I didn't see that. I saw SSG Goku dance with Beerus and fight a losing, but respectable battle. Then I saw him detransform, and lose ground at an increasing rate (though still slowly). Then I saw Beerus huck a blast at earth, and I saw base Goku try to deflect it and fail. Then I saw a transformed Goku deflect it. I don't know what other proof there could be that SSG Goku is stronger.

You haven't seen Beerus' line about Goku getting an insignificant decrease in power? Considering that's the entire topic of our discussion AND the thing that's being debated, don't you think it's absurd to use it to support your stance? The entire topic is whether Beerus was speaking in scale to his own power or in scale to the average person / thing.

You haven't read Toriyama's interview where he says that Goku no longer needs to transform into a God?
No, that's why I've asked several times for links or sources, instead of you just repeating things you heard someone else say.

My biggest problem with the idea that Base Form = SSG stems from the fact that te transformations are still used.

But first, we have to sit down and think: why were they used?

Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan without even realizing it, after getting angy & more aggresive, he didn't transform willingly to increase his power. Out-of-universe answer, Toriyama said that he wanted Goku to fight as a Super Saiyan in the final fight.

What does Super Saiyan have to do with anything? It's not on the table. It's not being discussed. It's literally not relevant to our discussion. We're comparing base Goku to SSG Goku and SSGSS Goku.

Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan God, again without realizing it, after going all-out to stop Beerus' attack, and again, he didn't transform willingly to increase his power. Out-of-universe answer, he transformed probably in order to show us that he can transform on his own and doesn't need the ritual anymore.

i disagree and I think it's pretty apparent actually, that he topped off what base form could put out (~80% of SSG power) while trying to deflect the blast. Being the type to never give up, Goku kept struggling and pushed beyond those limits, causing himself to transform again when he tapped into the rest of the power SSG offers. He doesn't knowingly or intentionally transform, but because he was digging out of reserves and still needed more power, his body kicked into the gear that could give it to him.

In FnF, he abandons these forms, and only uses base & SSGSS.

So why would he use SSGSS if it wasn't a significant increase over base form? Lol.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Its pretty much common knowledge that when someone says something is insignificant, they're more likely saying its insignificant to them than insignificant in scale to all other things. I just don't know how else to explain that to you.

What are you talking about? Beerus says that Goku absorbed the power of God, which is why his power didn't drastically decrease. How does this have anything to do with Beerus?

Citation needed.

Here:

Will Goku be able to transform into [Super Saiyan] God in the future?
I think you’ll understand if you watch [the movie], but Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God’s power and made it his own, so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God. Goku basically only thinks of fighting as a sporting match, so borrowing the power of five people isn’t fair, and he resisted doing that; however, it seems his curiosity towards the realm that lay even further beyond him won out.

Well SS is not related to our conversation at all, so the fact that you'd bring it up means either you're throwing in extraneous details to make it sound like you're supporting your argument, or you're confused as to what's being argued in the first place.

You talked about Goku transforming, so I thought you were talking about both transformations.

As far as the same level, no. I didn't see that. I saw SSG Goku dance with Beerus and fight a losing, but respectable battle. Then I saw him detransform, and lose ground at an increasing rate (though still slowly). Then I saw Beerus huck a blast at earth, and I saw base Goku try to deflect it and fail. Then I saw a transformed Goku deflect it. I don't know what other proof there could be that SSG Goku is stronger.

That was after Beerus raised his speed though. And after Goku turned SS and got more aggressive, they had an even battle.

No, that's why I've asked several times for links or sources, instead of you just repeating things you heard someone else say.

I thought I had posted it before in this thread, turns out I hadn't.

What does Super Saiyan have to do with anything? It's not on the table. It's not being discussed. It's literally not relevant to our discussion. We're comparing base Goku to SSG Goku and SSGSS Goku.

SS is relevant because, apparently, SS didn't change Goku's power, as Beerus didn't say anything about it. Meaning that we are comparing base/SS Goku to SSG Goku & SSGSS Goku.

i disagree and I think it's pretty apparent actually, that he topped off what base form could put out (~80% of SSG power) while trying to deflect the blast. Being the type to never give up, Goku kept struggling and pushed beyond those limits, causing himself to transform again when he tapped into the rest of the power SSG offers. He doesn't knowingly or intentionally transform, but because he was digging out of reserves and still needed more power, his body kicked into the gear that could give it to him.

I may had agreed with you, if Toriyama hadn't said what he said.

So why would he use SSGSS if it wasn't a significant increase over base form? Lol.

When did I say that he doesn't get a significant increase from SSGSS?