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What can I say other than that's not the intent. You're welcome like and think the scene is badass, but the music shouldn't play that up."holy shit, the SSJ legend is coming to fruition!" I find that fitting.
But is that the only thing music should do in DBZ - excite? Can you not get excited unless there's music?but at least it's exciting and saved exclusively for that moment. =P
Not constantly, but in moments like that, Goku's SSJ3 transformation, Vegeta's SSJ transformation, beam struggles, and what-not, yeah, why not? It's pretty common in almost every shonen anime I've seen.ABED wrote: But is that the only thing music should do in DBZ - excite? Can you not get excited unless there's music?
Though I actually like that first quote you used and feel the original dub has some bits of dialogue I prefer over other versions (e.g. Majin Vegeta's speech, Goku's SSJ explanation to Buu, Goku's words to Gohan during beam struggle, Goku's 20x kaioken moment, etc.), I don't think many people besides youtube users will argue that it has better dialogue than something like Kai. Majority of it was terrible.People always go on about how FUNimation's Buu arc dub was so much more accurate than anything that had come before it, but, when Goku tells Buu that he's "finally found a way to make him pay for his crimes", that makes me cringe. Even in the Cell arc, which others say is when the dub "got good", when Goku meets Cell before the Cell Games, he tells him that "he's not the first to try and rule with a sword of injustice".
I'll also reiterate what I stated a couple of years ago: I love FUNimation's Z dubs. I grew up with them, and they bring back some great memories. Though, it's really purely on a nostalgia level.
Wait, what? The original dub?fadeddreams5 wrote: Goku's 20x kaioken moment
I wasn't even talking about the use of silence, but moments can be exciting without the "you know this is exciting because we're playing exciting rockin' music during actions scenes!" For the record I don't think SS1 would've worked as well without music. Those piano notes played during transformation give the perfect sense of forboding. How the hell did it ruin the moment?.And of course there's moments that can excite without music. I actually mentioned that Goku's SSJ transformation would be amazing if there was no music accompanying the sound effects at all. Kikuchi's and Yamamoto's soundtracks, fitting or not, ruin that for me. Faulconer, at the very least, uses a theme I really enjoy and feel works for the first half of the transformation.
I mean can't you get excited unless there's "exciting music"? Isn't it possible to be sweeped up in the story and action along with a score that understands the intent of the moment and not just the "rockin' action!"?Not constantly, but in moments like that, Goku's SSJ3 transformation, Vegeta's SSJ transformation, beam struggles, and what-not, yeah, why not? It's pretty common in almost every shonen anime I've seen.
Kai - "For Gohan, Chi Chi, everyone on Earth, and the future of Namek, I am not about to give up! Less than 50% or not, if I pull off a kaioken x20, I at least stand a chance. I've just got to give it my all and show this guy that you do not mess with me and my friends!!"Doctor. wrote:Wait, what? The original dub?fadeddreams5 wrote: Goku's 20x kaioken moment
"It all depends on me! And I swear I'm not about to let them down! So get ready, because you're going down!"
It was so generic and cringe-worthy, Kai (and, obviously, the japanese/manga) had much better dialogue.
ABED wrote: I wasn't even talking about the use of silence, but moments can be exciting without the "you know this is exciting because we're playing exciting rockin' music during actions scenes!" For the record I don't think SS1 would've worked as well without music. Those piano notes played during transformation give the perfect sense of forboding. How the hell did it ruin the moment?.
If a moment is hype and action packed, I sort of do expect the accompanying music to add to that. It just makes the scene that much more powerful. Can it be exciting without a good track playing? Of course. But it won't be as exciting. Like when Yusuke beat the living crap out of Sensui. The music made that scene so much better than it already was. If you replace it with a Kikuchi track, it's still exciting due to what's actually happening in it, but not as exciting.I mean can't you get excited unless there's "exciting music"? Isn't it possible to be sweeped up in the story and action along with a score that understands the intent of the moment and not just the "rockin' action!"?
DBZ isn't nearly the antithesis to DB's tone as many dub fans claim it is.
"What do you know of meaningless?! Spend most of your life ruled by another, watch your race dwindle to a handful, and then tell me what has more meaning than your own strength!"Majin Vegeta's speech is the same as it was in the original. Slightly different wording, and it's one of the more accurate dub scenes.
Untrue, Vegeta speaks of how he had had settled down and come to enjoy the comforts of Earth, other than one good line, it's a very similar speech in the original, and his beef isn't even with his past, that moment was purely about Goku, not his race.None of that is in the original. Vegeta just bitches about how Goku is so much more awesome than him an' iz nut fair.
It can but it doesn't have to be stereotypical "this is an action packed moment" music.If a moment is hype and action packed, I sort of do expect the accompanying music to add to that.
Not much of a Goku line that I can recall and doesn't need to be said.I won't let you harm anymore innocent people
There are plenty of exciting tracks, and there are plenty of other emotions beyond simply "exciting". Sometimes you can play the heroism or juxtapose the music with what's on screen. I don't know the name of the track but there's a part in the SS Goku fight against Freeza where he elbows Freeza in the stomach when Freeza attempts to bear hug him. It's a great energizing track that understands the tone of the moment and the show.it's still exciting due to what's actually happening in it, but not as exciting.
And? You don't like 60s music? Was 90s music so much better because it was 30 years later? Is that in fact what 60's music sounds like? Sticking "modern" music onto a series that's supposed to be timeless and a bit of a throwback to older kung fu films is like putting modern music on Star Wars.it feels so underwhelming and too '60s.
But that line is powerful because it shows why he takes so much pride in his strength in the first place--it's not just about his status as royalty. It might be completely inaccurate to his character (especially given the recent F movie), but it makes sense and adds some depth in there.ABED wrote:and his beef isn't even with his past, that moment was purely about Goku, not his race.
Most of that scene is apparently out of character and fabricated by Toei. He begins by saying he won't give up for the sake of either the entire universe or the people on Earth and Namek, depending on which version you watch. So within' the context, the line I wrote fits. Anime Goku knows that if he gives up, Frieza will bring harm to countless other people, which he cannot and will not allow. That's the whole point of the scene--it's not just about him at that moment.Not much of a Goku line that I can recall and doesn't need to be said.
There are two Kikuchi tracks I consider exciting. 1) That Angel rendition played during friendly battles. 2) That iconic "dun dunnnn...dun dun dunnn... dun dun dun dun!" one that plays when Frieza reveals his final form. When I think hype battle music in Japanese DBZ, the first thing that comes to mind is Bardock's theme / Solid State Scouter. Not Kikuchi. >.>There are plenty of exciting tracks, and there are plenty of other emotions beyond simply "exciting". Sometimes you can play the heroism or juxtapose the music with what's on screen. I don't know the name of the track but there's a part in the SS Goku fight against Freeza where he elbows Freeza in the stomach when Freeza attempts to bear hug him. It's a great energizing track that understands the tone of the moment and the show.
Honestly, I'm not even familiar with '60s music. lol. It's just my way of saying it feels years dated...in a bad way. To me. It sounds like those really old kung fu flicks, which was obviously the intention. Just not my cup of tea.And? You don't like 60s music? Was 90s music so much better because it was 30 years later? Is that in fact what 60's music sounds like? Sticking "modern" music onto a series that's supposed to be timeless and a bit of a throwback to older kung fu films is like putting modern music on Star Wars.
He always took pride in his strength regardless of Freeza. I'm not sure you understand Vegeta's motivations. It doesn't make sense nor adds depth since it goes against who he is. Regardless of Freeza destroying his race, his strength was always the most important thing to him. Focusing on Goku and his impact on Vegeta makes a far stronger statement. Bringing up a bad childhood isn't axiomatically "deeper".But that line is powerful because it shows why he takes so much pride in his strength in the first place. but it makes sense and adds some depth in there.
That's not Goku either, he's also not only "me, me, me". Goku is rarely if ever "I will stand up for what is right and defend everyone" at least not explicitly.it's not just about him at that moment.
And Faulconer's score sounds like something created on a computer in a guy's basement. It's not modern, it simply doesn't fit, and pretty much ruins any iconic scenes from the show.Honestly, I'm not even familiar with '60s music. lol. It's just my way of saying it feels years dated...in a bad way. To me. It sounds like those really old kung fu flicks, which was obviously the intention. Just not my cup of tea.
Stuff like that, Pikkon's theme, Vegeta's SSJ theme, Vegeta Knows His Son, all of Cell vs Gohan, etc.MajinMan wrote:What is "hype" battle music anyway? I thought it was plain, with a few good tracks here and there. I still think the Super Buu theme is awesome till this day.
Don't get me wrong. I already mentioned Faulconer's placement is pretty much shit. But he delivers during the moments most important to me as a viewer, which include the major battles and transformations. Kikuchi wins as far as consistency goes, but a lot of the over-the-top scenes are sapped out of their energy, imo, making most of it a pretty dull experience when it shouldn't be. I've watched most of the Japanese version. I honestly don't consider one better than the other. Not a fan of Japanese voices either. The acting is great, but the voices themselves...not a fan. As for the English version, the emotional scenes and ones that should be silent are ruined, most of the dialogue is horrendous, and the acting is piss poor. Yamamoto (English) Kai is the best version, but even then, a lot of scenes simply are not as exciting without some of Faulconer tracks for me.I don't really know what message I'm trying to convey here, but one thing I can truly say is that watching the Japanese version made all the difference for me. I'm not sure if some of you guys debating above have seen DB/Z in Japanese, but if you ever find the time to do it like I did, you won't regret it. If you still like Faulconer better then sure, it's your opinion, but if you haven't experienced Kikuchi in its most "raw" form, then you can't really judge it properly.
I already mentioned that the scene is inaccurate to the character. But the fact of the matter is that he was held in bondage by Frieza. And his race did perish as a result of him. When he cried to Goku on Namek, he explained how Frieza killed all the saiyans. That's not to say this is the reason Vegeta became ruthless, as the original dub implies, but it can explain why strength is so important to him: he always wanted to overthrow Frieza and avenge the destruction of his planet, and take over as ruler. Seeing a low class saiyan surpass him after all his trials and tribulations, become a SSJ before he had his chance, kill the being that he desired to slay all his life, and on top of that, be saved by him, deeply wounded him. That is a much more powerful motivation than "I'm prince of a dead race, so I should be stronger! Me, me, me!!!"ABED wrote:He always took pride in his strength regardless of Freeza. I'm not sure you understand Vegeta's motivations. It doesn't make sense nor adds depth since it goes against who he is. Regardless of Freeza destroying his race, his strength was always the most important thing to him. Focusing on Goku and his impact on Vegeta makes a far stronger statement. Bringing up a bad childhood isn't axiomatically "deeper".
That is literally what he says in the that moment.That's not Goku either, he's also not only "me, me, me". Goku is rarely if ever "I will stand up for what is right and defend everyone" at least not explicitly.
Okay.And Faulconer's score sounds like something created on a computer in a guy's basement. It's not modern, it simply doesn't fit, and pretty much ruins any iconic scenes from the show.
Doesn't that just make him more generic, though?Like I mentioned, that whole scene is not Goku. But honestly, I prefer it. I like Toei Goku more. It's the same character, only more heroic and selfless.
You always end up replying after I edit my comment!Doctor. wrote:Doesn't that just make him more generic, though?Like I mentioned, that whole scene is not Goku. But honestly, I prefer it. I like Toei Goku more. It's the same character, only more heroic and selfless.
There's no doubt about it that in the manga, Goku also had the thought of saving his friends in his mind in that particular fight (he makes a whole speech about it before starting to fight Freeza for God's sake), but it doesn't mean that it has to be shoved in your face that he's a hero 24/7 like the dub and Toei adaptations.
But we're dealing with two different scenes completely. Vegeta was dying at the hands of the man that killed his race in one, and in another, he's explaining his motives to the man he blames for why he did what he did. Freeza is nowhere to be found and had nothing to do with his decision to be controlled by Babidi. Strength was always important to Saiyans. It's in their blood, and there's little if any indication that Freeza held Vegeta in bondage. He seemed to favor Vegeta until his betrayal. Your explanation feels false to me. For one, giving someone a tragic backstory doesn't always equate to depth. Vegeta has always been an elitist, anything that flies in the face of that, irritates him. "I'm prince of a dead race, so I should be stronger! Me, me, me!!!" is how it manifests itself, but ultimately it's due to insecurity.I already mentioned that the scene is inaccurate to the character. But the fact of the matter is that he was held in bondage by Freeza. And his race did perish as a result of him. When he cried to Goku on Namek, he explained how Freeza killed all the saiyans. That's not to say this is the reason Vegeta became ruthless, as the original dub implies, but it can explain why strength is so important to him: he always wanted to overthrow Freeza and avenge the destruction of his planet, and take over as ruler. Seeing a low class saiyan surpass him after all his trials and tribulations, become a SSJ before he had his chance, kill the being that he desired to slay all his life, and on top of that, be saved by him, deeply wounded him. That is a much more powerful motivation than "I'm prince of a dead race, so I should be stronger! Me, me, me!!!"
In the original or the dub?That is literally what he says in the that moment.
It's not the same character and whether you prefer it isn't the issue, it's not Goku, and making Goku the guy who explicitly fights for innocent people isn't more heroic.Like I mentioned, that whole scene is not Goku. But honestly, I prefer it. I like Toei Goku. It's the same character, only more heroic and selfless. Not sure if I prefer this version of Goku in general.
But we do know that he cares for others. I much prefer him to fight for his friends and family, it's way more concrete than a bunch of beings we don't know. Heroes aren't limited to those that make it their mission or job to help/save strangers. I'd rather he show his heroism through actions and not speeches.It's nice knowing his drive stems beyond just saving his friends/family and fighting someone really strong.
I'm not giving him a tragic backstory. He's already implied to have one. Whether or not Frieza tortured him isn't the point. He was held as a trophy and forced to serve Frieza. He had to hold himself back because he knew he was no match. This is shown in a filler scene, where he's with Raditz and Nappa. Here, he's also shown to be humiliated. People are naturally driven by their past and upbringing, and I like that playing a role in his actions and desires, rather than it just being some form of insecurity manifested due to his natural blood and instincts, which ultimately is the case, whether I like it or not. I don't want to spoil F, but that much is clear.ABED wrote:But we're dealing with two different scenes completely. Vegeta was dying at the hands of the man that killed his race in one, and in another, he's explaining his motives to the man he blames for why he did what he did. Freeza is nowhere to be found and had nothing to do with his decision to be controlled by Babidi. Strength was always important to Saiyans. It's in their blood, and there's little if any indication that Freeza held Vegeta in bondage. He seemed to favor Vegeta until his betrayal. Your explanation feels false to me. For one, giving someone a tragic backstory doesn't always equate to depth. Vegeta has always been an elitist, anything that flies in the face of that, irritates him. "I'm prince of a dead race, so I should be stronger! Me, me, me!!!" is how it manifests itself, but ultimately it's due to insecurity.
I quoted Kai before:In the original or the dub?
Hey, I didn't write that version of Goku. He's there. I like him, is all. It's like the different portrayals of comic book heroes by different writers. It's still Goku. He still loves to fight, has a goofy personality, and so on. Only he's depicted as even more selfless.It's not the same character and whether you prefer it isn't the issue, it's not Goku, and making Goku the guy who explicitly fights for innocent people isn't more heroic.
I don't want him to show his heroism through non-stop speeches. I meant actions. He shows those actions in the movies, but his primary motive is shifted to protecting others, rather than JUST fighting someone strong and solely protecting his friends/family. I don't recall too many heroic speeches in the movies; they may be there. I forgot.But we do know that he cares for others. I much prefer him to fight for his friends and family, it's way more concrete than a bunch of beings we don't know. Heroes aren't limited to those that make it their mission or job to help/save strangers. I'd rather he show his heroism through actions and not speeches.
That's nothing compared to the Buu saga, GT, and the last two movies where Goku has to do everything most of the time and not give other characters a chance to fight. Plus, I don't even think Goku's not much of a dumbass as some of you guys here think. In tense moments, Goku did say some "heroic" stuff in the original version, AND in the manga. Yall think that when he's using his x20 Kaioken, he said "Food is the best shit in the world! I dunno what is my son! I wanna be friends! NARF!"Doctor. wrote: There's no doubt about it that in the manga, Goku also had the thought of saving his friends in his mind in that particular fight (he makes a whole speech about it before starting to fight Freeza for God's sake), but it doesn't mean that it has to be shoved in your face that he's a hero 24/7 like the dub and Toei adaptations.
Kikuchi- too generic(playing the same F note constantly) and monotonous for its own good, though it does get its dynamics right occasionally.MajinMan wrote: I don't really understand how people can say Kikuchi is boring and Faulconer is hype.
Akira Toriyama wrote:If anyone. ANYONE AT TOEI! Makes a movie about old and weak major villains returning, or making recolored versions of Super Saiyan, I'ma come to yo company and evict you from doing Dragon Ball ever again! Only I do those things, because people love me, and they despise you....derp!
Marco Polo wrote:Goku Black is a fan of DBZ who hates Super and has taken the form of a younger Goku (thinner shape, softer hair) to avenge the original series by destroying the new.
I'm not a musician, but it stands out. I don't know what note he's playing, I just know it doesn't all sound the same.Kikuchi- too generic(playing the same F note constantly) and monotonous for its own good, though it does get its dynamics right occasionally.
But it's not really all that tragic, Vegeta wasn't held hostage and he doesn't seem all that bummed that his race was destroyed until he's about to die. He does little to show that he cares, he lets Raditz stay dead and he kills Nappa when he deems him useless. Vegeta isn't turned into a killer, he is a killer by choice. Vegeta wouldn't have tried to get revenge if he could've, he was after power. People aren't driven by their past, they are driven by their ideas. Their ideas determine their actions. It's way more true to life that some people simply want power for its own sake, not because they have some tragedy in their past, that doesn't make them any less 3 Dimensional.I'm not giving him a tragic backstory.
But he fights for personal reasons, not to be the savior of the world, and it's completely different from American comics that have infinite middles where the writing changes hands. There's one writer who wrote the entire story and has one characterization. I don't want Goku to be selfless (not the same thing as heroic), I want Goku to be a man who loves life, loves fighting, and will fight like hell to defend his values.It's like the different portrayals of comic book heroes by different writers. It's still Goku. He still loves to fight, has a goofy personality, and so on.
I don't see how it makes him better if he's going out fighting for strangers instead of his family and friends.rather than JUST fighting someone strong and solely protecting his friends/family.
