SSJGSS confirmed stronger than SSJ4?

[Darkprince410]

So Goku's Godly Ki + Vegeta's Godly Ki produces normal Ki somehow? Even though both can go SSGSS at will, a Potara fusion of both presumably can't? You're making zero sense. If Kibitoshin and Elder Kaioshin have Godly Ki, then why wouldn't Vegetto have it? He already underwent the ritual the moment both Goku and Vegeta did.

So why didn't they when Beerus threatened to kill them and the Earth on multiple occasions?

Because he only did one time out of any real seriousness, and that was before Vegeta acquired god ki. During the events of Revival of F, Beerus was in no way a serious antagonist, as he had already called a truce provided he get sweets when he wanted. Besides, we're firmly told in Revival of F that Goku and Vegeta have no desire to even fight alongside one another against a common enemy, let alone go as far as to fuse with one another, temporarily or otherwise.

[h0kuten]

So Goku's Godly Ki + Vegeta's Godly Ki produces normal Ki somehow? Even though both can go SSGSS at will, a Potara fusion of both presumably can't? You're making zero sense. If Kibitoshin and Elder Kaioshin have Godly Ki, then why wouldn't Vegetto have it? He already underwent the ritual the moment both Goku and Vegeta did.

So why didn't they when Beerus threatened to kill them and the Earth on multiple occasions?

Because he only did one time out of any real seriousness, and that was before Vegeta acquired god ki. During the events of Revival of F, Beerus was in no way a serious antagonist, as he had already called a truce provided he get sweets when he wanted. Besides, we're firmly told in Revival of F that Goku and Vegeta have no desire to even fight alongside one another against a common enemy, let alone go as far as to fuse with one another, temporarily or otherwise.

Beerus threatened to kill them during the opening of Fukkatsu no F.

[Doctor.]

So Goku's Godly Ki + Vegeta's Godly Ki produces normal Ki somehow? Even though both can go SSGSS at will, a Potara fusion of both presumably can't? You're making zero sense. If Kibitoshin and Elder Kaioshin have Godly Ki, then why wouldn't Vegetto have it? He already underwent the ritual the moment both Goku and Vegeta did.

So why didn't they when Beerus threatened to kill them and the Earth on multiple occasions?

Maybe because they've befriended Beerus? The only time Vegetto would have Godly Ki would be in RF, when both of them can control their SSGSS forms, and at that point they didn't need to fuse to beat Whis or Beerus, since they're not their enemies anymore.

[Truhan]

Perhaps God ki won't stack like normal Ki does. That's the only way I can imagine Vegetto not being much stronger, but definitely stronger than Goku and Vegeta. Remember: their bodies have expanded to a new limit, like a balloon being stretched with air, which would be the equivalent of God ki. Take it from them and their body limits will get scaled down, without assuming the same size that they had before, which is the same as saying that, despite having God ki taken from them, they still got stronger than their Buu saga selves.

Since God ki is not theirs, but was handed to them and then absorbed, there's a reason to think that only their power at base would increase, including more storage capacity. In the end, even if Goku and Vegeta's God ki didn't merge like their powers through potara, there would be enough room to gather more through another ritual.

[Darkprince410]

Since God ki is not theirs, but was handed to them and then absorbed, there's a reason to think that only their power at base would increase, including more storage capacity. In the end, even if Goku and Vegeta's God ki didn't merge like their powers through potara, there would be enough room to gather more through another ritual.

In the Battle of Gods animanga, Toriyama stated in his interview that Goku, after absorbing the power of Super Saiya-jin God, "made it is own". So even though it wasn't initially his ki, when he absorbed it, it became his ki.

[h0kuten]

So Goku's Godly Ki + Vegeta's Godly Ki produces normal Ki somehow? Even though both can go SSGSS at will, a Potara fusion of both presumably can't? You're making zero sense. If Kibitoshin and Elder Kaioshin have Godly Ki, then why wouldn't Vegetto have it? He already underwent the ritual the moment both Goku and Vegeta did.

So why didn't they when Beerus threatened to kill them and the Earth on multiple occasions?

Maybe because they've befriended Beerus? The only time Vegetto would have Godly Ki would be in RF, when both of them can control their SSGSS forms, and at that point they didn't need to fuse to beat Whis or Beerus, since they're not their enemies anymore.

So you're making up excuses as to why they wouldn't resort to using Vegetto when Beerus threatens to kill them or the entire Earth? No I won't follow that logic.

Vegetto is a step down in the hierarchy and does not have Godly Chi. He is useless now.

[Doctor.]

You're the one trying to make Beerus out to be Goku's enemy. He's not. For the same reason Goku didn't fight Android arc Vegeta, Goku and Vegeta are now not fighting Beerus despite the constant threat they're getting. Beerus isn't actually hurting anyone, he's all bark and no bite and Goku perceives him as his friend, probably.

Yes, Boo arc Vegetto is a step down, he's useless. A Vegetto made by a Goku and a Vegeta with Godly Ki WOULD have Godly Ki, as proven by Elder Kaioshin and Kibitoshin having Godly Ki. Even if Vegetto had normal Ki upon his creation again, he can still undergo the ritual, Vegetto, Goten, Trunks, Gohan, Pan and Bra (which should be born sometime after F) make 6 Saiyans. The only reason Vegetto doesn't exist is because he'd be too powerful and tension wouldn't exist.

[Hitiro]

You're the one trying to make Beerus out to be Goku's enemy. He's not. For the same reason Goku didn't fight Android arc Vegeta, Goku and Vegeta are now not fighting Beerus despite the constant threat they're getting. Beerus isn't actually hurting anyone, he's all bark and no bite and Goku perceives him as his friend, probably.

Yes, Boo arc Vegetto is a step down, he's useless. A Vegetto made by a Goku and a Vegeta with Godly Ki WOULD have Godly Ki, as proven by Elder Kaioshin and Kibitoshin having Godly Ki. Even if Vegetto had normal Ki upon his creation again, he can still undergo the ritual, Vegetto, Goten, Trunks, Gohan, Pan and Bra (which should be born sometime after F) make 6 Saiyans. The only reason Vegetto doesn't exist is because he'd be too powerful and tension wouldn't exist.

Even if Bra isn't born then they could always use Tarble, Vegeta's brother.

[VintageSaiyan]

So why didn't they when Beerus threatened to kill them and the Earth on multiple occasions?

Vegetto is a step down in the hierarchy and does not have Godly Chi. He is useless now.

You're not making any sense. Beerus was never a real threat in RoF, and just remember how hard it was for them to fuse against Buu. Vegeta was decimated by Buu, killed himself, brought back only to get his ass handed to him again even worse, and had to have his face in the dirt with Goku reminding him what's at stake here. Not only that, he crushed the Potara earring as soon as they defused knowing full well that the battle hadn't even been won yet. It's you who isn't following any logic here.

If we were to agree with you then it would make zero sense that Vegito was able to go super saiyan after fusing.

[h0kuten]

You're the one trying to make Beerus out to be Goku's enemy. He's not. For the same reason Goku didn't fight Android arc Vegeta, Goku and Vegeta are now not fighting Beerus despite the constant threat they're getting. Beerus isn't actually hurting anyone, he's all bark and no bite and Goku perceives him as his friend, probably.

Yes, Boo arc Vegetto is a step down, he's useless. A Vegetto made by a Goku and a Vegeta with Godly Ki WOULD have Godly Ki, as proven by Elder Kaioshin and Kibitoshin having Godly Ki. Even if Vegetto had normal Ki upon his creation again, he can still undergo the ritual, Vegetto, Goten, Trunks, Gohan, Pan and Bra (which should be born sometime after F) make 6 Saiyans. The only reason Vegetto doesn't exist is because he'd be too powerful and tension wouldn't exist.

The Potara didn't make them that much stronger, at least in comparison to the Saiyans.

The same would happen due to Goku & Vegeta having Godly Chi, and would therefore make Vegetto probably, a bit stronger.

Potara doesn't work well with Gods.

[Doctor.]

The Potara didn't make them that much stronger, at least in comparison to the Saiyans.

The same would happen due to Goku & Vegeta having Godly Chi, and would therefore make Vegetto probably, a bit stronger.

Potara doesn't work well with Gods.

The Potara fusion put SS Vegetto leagues above any SS3 at the time, of course it made them much stronger.

Not a bit. As base Vegetto is superior to base Goku and Vegeta in the Boo arc, in F, base Vegetto would also be superior to Goku and Vegeta by a great amount, it's not rocket science.

Kaioshin thinks he stands a chance against Boo after fusing with someone vastly inferior to him, how does it not work well? If we lowball this and say Kaioshin got 2x stronger due to fusion, then how strong would a fusion from two beings at the same level of strength, and who benefit from a boost due to being rivals, be?

You're making a huge number excuses to try to say Vegetto would be useless at this point in time, he would not.

[Low Tone G]

You're the one trying to make Beerus out to be Goku's enemy. He's not. For the same reason Goku didn't fight Android arc Vegeta, Goku and Vegeta are now not fighting Beerus despite the constant threat they're getting. Beerus isn't actually hurting anyone, he's all bark and no bite and Goku perceives him as his friend, probably.

Yes, Boo arc Vegetto is a step down, he's useless. A Vegetto made by a Goku and a Vegeta with Godly Ki WOULD have Godly Ki, as proven by Elder Kaioshin and Kibitoshin having Godly Ki. Even if Vegetto had normal Ki upon his creation again, he can still undergo the ritual, Vegetto, Goten, Trunks, Gohan, Pan and Bra (which should be born sometime after F) make 6 Saiyans. The only reason Vegetto doesn't exist is because he'd be too powerful and tension wouldn't exist.

The Potara didn't make them that much stronger, at least in comparison to the Saiyans.

The same would happen due to Goku & Vegeta having Godly Chi, and would therefore make Vegetto probably, a bit stronger.

Potara doesn't work well with Gods.

I'm very fairly inclined to agree. The plot most likely would never demand as a character like Vegetto to be that astronomically high to surpass Whis or other God characters with that incomparable margin, comparing how other characters were surpassed in the Buu Arc. Even if Goku and Vegeta would be able to create Vegetto as Gods, Vegetto's power would stay more of an addition than a multiplication. If we rank both Goku and Vegeta to be at 7-8 compared to Beerus' 10 then they would end up as 16-18, so not that far from Whis who is a 15.

[Herms]

To get back to the original topic, I don't believe Extreme Butoden did anything to "confirm" SSGSS's strength in relation to Super Saiyan 4. SSj4 characters only appear in the game as support characters. There's a tier system ranking the various playable characters and support characters, which determines what sort of team you can put together, but this is a simple 1 to 7 scale that naturally squashes together a lot of characters into weird combinations (Bardock is above Ginyu, Raditz and Nappa are in the same category, etc). It probably shouldn't be taken as applying to anything outside of the game.

[h0kuten]

The Potara didn't make them that much stronger, at least in comparison to the Saiyans.

The same would happen due to Goku & Vegeta having Godly Chi, and would therefore make Vegetto probably, a bit stronger.

Potara doesn't work well with Gods.

The Potara fusion put SS Vegetto leagues above any SS3 at the time, of course it made them much stronger.

Not a bit. As base Vegetto is superior to base Goku and Vegeta in the Boo arc, in F, base Vegetto would also be superior to Goku and Vegeta by a great amount, it's not rocket science.

Kaioshin thinks he stands a chance against Boo after fusing with someone vastly inferior to him, how does it not work well? If we lowball this and say Kaioshin got 2x stronger due to fusion, then how strong would a fusion from two beings at the same level of strength, and who benefit from a boost due to being rivals, be?

You're making a huge number excuses to try to say Vegetto would be useless at this point in time, he would not.

The Kaioshins were already implied to be Frieza tier, somewhere in the 50-100% possibly, and were supposedly in a different realm than Piccolo, whose trained for 7 years. Yet when they combined with the Potara, they are implied weaker than Vegeta who may or may not have kept his Majin power up. This means the Potara doesn't work well with gods and wouldn't work well with Goku or Vegeta either.

[Doctor.]

Kaioshin fused with someone weaker than him (it was said that it barely boosts your power in that case) and didn't receive a rivalry boost.

You still don't get it do you? Kaioshin was weaker than a SS, and fused he was possibly weaker than a SS2. So, the boost is around 2x for Kaioshin, even when the conditions of his fusion were extremely poor. Even IF Goku and Vegeta don't get the rival boost now for some reason, a Vegetto would still be stronger than Beerus, as Goku and Vegeta are at least a 6 in SSGSS. Vegetto would be a 12 at minimum, he'd be stronger no way you slice it.

[h0kuten]

Kaioshin fused with someone weaker than him (it was said that it barely boosts your power in that case) and didn't receive a rivalry boost.

You still don't get it do you? Kaioshin was weaker than a SS, and fused he was possibly weaker than a SS2. So, the boost is around 2x for Kaioshin, even when the conditions of his fusion were extremely poor. Even IF Goku and Vegeta don't get the rival boost now for some reason, a Vegetto would still be stronger than Beerus, as Goku and Vegeta are at least a 6 in SSGSS. Vegetto would be a 12 at minimum, he'd be stronger no way you slice it.

Kaioshin was said to be in a different dimension than Piccolo. Who was already around 50-60% of Goku during the Cell Games, that's excluding 7 years of training.

Not entirely, we don't know how the Potara works with Saiyan Gods.

Goku & Vegeta are not rivals like they used to be. Vegeta makes it blatantly clear that he needs Goku to get stronger. Just because they won't fight together doesn't mean they are rivals.

During the ending portion of the Buu Saga Vegeta admitted Goku was the best, which discontinues their rivalry. However, they can still train together and use each other to get stronger.

[VintageSaiyan]

Kaioshin fused with someone weaker than him (it was said that it barely boosts your power in that case) and didn't receive a rivalry boost.

You still don't get it do you? Kaioshin was weaker than a SS, and fused he was possibly weaker than a SS2. So, the boost is around 2x for Kaioshin, even when the conditions of his fusion were extremely poor. Even IF Goku and Vegeta don't get the rival boost now for some reason, a Vegetto would still be stronger than Beerus, as Goku and Vegeta are at least a 6 in SSGSS. Vegetto would be a 12 at minimum, he'd be stronger no way you slice it.

Kaioshin was said to be in a different dimension than Piccolo. Who was already around 50-60% of Goku during the Cell Games, that's excluding 7 years of training.

Not entirely, we don't know how the Potara works with Saiyan Gods.

Goku & Vegeta are not rivals like they used to be. Vegeta makes it blatantly clear that he needs Goku to get stronger. Just because they won't fight together doesn't mean they are rivals.

During the ending portion of the Buu Saga Vegeta admitted Goku was the best, which discontinues their rivalry. However, they can still train together and use each other to get stronger.

Are we watching the same show?

[Alondite]

I can't take hokuten seriously. You're being really illogical, insisting that Vegetto can't carry over God Ki and is useless etc etc when we don't know that at all.

Here's what we know.

Base Goku (Buu) / Base Vegeta (Buu) < Base Goku + God Ki (FnF)/Base Vegeta + God Ki(FnF) < Hypothetical Vegetto /Gogeta + God Ki (FnF+)

Vegetto/Gogeta may never be used again. If that's true, there'll be no way of knowing whether or not he can use God Ki unless toriyama takes the time to have a character say "fusion is useless, since we won't carry our God Ki over!" Or something to that effect. We simply won't know.

If Vegetto / Gogeta IS used again, it's pretty much a guarantee that he'll carry over the God Ki, or else there'd be no reason to use the character.

So we're left where we started - we absolutely, 100% CAN NOT say whether or not the fusion Saiyan could or could not use the God Ki. For those saying he would, they're being ridiculous. For you saying he couldn't, that's absurd. For those saying it's possible or that he might not, that's the only logical approach thanks to our total lack of evidence.

[h0kuten]

Unless somebody brings information to support the idea that Goku & Vegeta can merge as gods and become a what? 'Super Saiyan God Vegetto Super Saiyan God'?, or show evidence that supports them being able to (because we have evidence that says the fusion will split under weird scenario), than I see no reason to believe it's a possibility. Especially under the knowledge that fusion works differently for Kai's or doesn't work at all when in the insides of Majin Buu.

There is a reason Toriyama abandoned the character in Battle of Gods. Because he's no longer powerful enough to be relevant again. He's a product of the Kaioshins, not a product of Beerus or Whiss or Goku & Vegeta SSJG SS. The formula required to produce him is a step down God tier and I highly doubt Toriyama would have Goku & Vegeta simply merge with the Potara to one shot Whiss. That completely defeats the purpose of introducing more Gods, more Universes, Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, abandoning the Potara an entire movie ago, and being trained by Whisss.

[Doctor.]

We've got proof of two beings with Godly Ki fusing.

We've got proof of two beings, one with Godly Ki, one without, fusing.

What more evidence do you need to even consider it as a possibility?