How powerful are Piccolo and Shisami?

[Marco Polo]

Of course, the real answer is that Toriyama and/or Toei's writers just don't give a fudge about power levels,

Let's not reverse the idea. It's not that Toriyama and/or Toei's writers don't give a fudge about power levels; it's that some fans give way too much importance to power levels. We were never meant to have to whip out a calculator and datasheets to guess who is more powerful than who.

[supercat]

Of course, the real answer is that Toriyama and/or Toei's writers just don't give a fudge about power levels,

Let's not reverse the idea. It's not that Toriyama and/or Toei's writers don't give a fudge about power levels; it's that some fans give way too much importance to power levels. We were never meant to have to whip out a calculator and datasheets to guess who is more powerful than who.

I completely agree that it's a bit excessive for fans to sit there and complain over the most minute fluctuations in power. However, when something as implausible as Piccolo getting punched by some mook who was stated to be at the same level of some other completely useless mook occurs, it's something to really speculate about.

It's one thing if fighter A surpasses fighter B, even though fighter B originally held a slight advantage, but to compare a high caliber fighter like Piccolo to some absolute bottom of the barrel garbage like Dodoria and Zarbon is just absurdly mind-boggling in my opinion.

[Sun Wukong]

Piccolo should be steadily getting stronger since The Cell Games. Toriyama's interview always say Piccolo is one known to always train during his off time. Other characters such as Goku & Gohan have reached such thresholds of power that the relevancy of showing Piccolo's new improvements isn't at all important anymore. With that said, Fukkatsu no F Piccolo should be far, far stronger than The Majin Buu Saga or Cell Games Piccolo, after having Dragonball Super, Battle of Gods & Yo Son Goku! to power up in.

So true and yet so sad. Current Piccolo imo should be around SSJ2 Goku from the buu saga. But he probably is going to be as strong as the plot allows at this point. Just like Roshi & Co.

[mogi67]

Of course, the real answer is that Toriyama and/or Toei's writers just don't give a fudge about power levels,

Let's not reverse the idea. It's not that Toriyama and/or Toei's writers don't give a fudge about power levels; it's that some fans give way too much importance to power levels. We were never meant to have to whip out a calculator and datasheets to guess who is more powerful than who.

I completely agree that it's a bit excessive for fans to sit there and complain over the most minute fluctuations in power. However, when something as implausible as Piccolo getting punched by some mook who was stated to be at the same level of some other completely useless mook occurs, it's something to really speculate about.

It's one thing if fighter A surpasses fighter B, even though fighter B originally held a slight advantage, but to compare a high caliber fighter like Piccolo to some absolute bottom of the barrel garbage like Dodoria and Zarbon is just absurdly mind-boggling in my opinion.

Yeah - how is it that Piccolo (who has undoubtedly been training consistently for several years, because that's what he does) is seriously challenged by this guy but lazy muscle shrunken Gohan can destroy this guy in one punch? Blech

[h0kuten]

I'll try my best to level this crap out. I enjoy using numbers a-lot so bare with me.

The Cell Games

Spoiler:

Gohan
~Ssj 125

Goku
~Ssj 100

Cell Junior
~FP 80

Vegeta
~Ssj 75

Piccolo
~FP 60

The starting levels seem to work.

The Buu Saga

Spoiler:

Goku
~Ssj 150

Vegeta Pre
~Ssj 112.50

Gohan
~Ssj 90

Piccolo
~FP 80

Fat Buu
~Full Power 225

Gotenks
~Ssj3 12,800

Ultimate Gohan
~FP 16,000

Fukkatsu no F

Spoiler:

Piccolo
~FP 150

Gohan
~Base 160
~Ssj 8,000

Shisami
~FP 150

I think this seems to work rather well, Gohan did loose a-lot of power and was forced to transform. Piccolo is constantly training so he should be constantly getting stronger since The Cell Games.

[supercat]

By the time the events of FnF take place, I'd say Piccolo is proudly sporting a power notably higher than Perfect Cell (suppressed), while Gohan is in the same realm of power as his Z-Sword counterpart. Keeping that in mind, Shisami probably falls somewhere in between the two, but is presumably far closer to the former. In any case, who knows what Piccolo would have eventually done to the mysteriously over powered bull had the fight continued.

As for the base Saiyans, until we get more indication in Super as to where they stand, I can't envision any of them surpassing Frieza (before training) until EoZ.

[h0kuten]

By the time the events of FnF take place, I'd say Piccolo is proudly sporting a power notably higher than Perfect Cell (suppressed), while Gohan is in the same realm of power as his Z-Sword counterpart. Keeping that in mind, Shisami probably falls somewhere in between the two, but is presumably far closer to the former. In any case, who knows what Piccolo would have eventually done to the mysteriously over powered bull had the fight continued.

As for the base Saiyans, until we get more indication in Super as to where they stand, I can't envision any of them surpassing Freeza (before training) until EoZ.

Gohan was implied to be Piccolo's equal in Base. The two never really struggled and Gohan - having see Piccolo fight with Shisami, knew he couldn't beat him in base. This should infer Base Gohan as being at least around... Cell Games Gohan & Perfect Cell (Real Speed) tier, with his Ssj being 50x above that.

[Draconic]

I am happy that this thread was revived since I had a point to make for a while and didn't know where to.

Most people consider Shisami and Tagoma weaker than First Form Frieza (at least when he is revived) based on the fact that Shisami and Tagoma seem to have a sort of rivalry and Frieza killed Tagoma very easy. But, in truth, Frieza didn't fight Tagoma. He picked him up by surprise and threw him out of a window in space, where he died. What it shows is that Tagoma can't breath in space, not that he is necessarily weak.

[Doctor.]

I am happy that this thread was revived since I had a point to make for a while and didn't know where to.

Most people consider Shisami and Tagoma weaker than First Form Freeza (at least when he is revived) based on the fact that Shisami and Tagoma seem to have a sort of rivalry and Freeza killed Tagoma very easy. But, in truth, Freeza didn't fight Tagoma. He picked him up by surprise and threw him out of a window in space, where he died. What it shows is that Tagoma can't breath in space, not that he is necessarily weak.

And what of it? If Tagoma was stronger than first form Freeza, then he'd be able to resist the telekinesis. Hell, if Tagoma was stronger than first form Freeza, he wouldn't have gone to Earth to revive him, he'd be enough to control the army himself, Shisami too.

[h0kuten]

I am happy that this thread was revived since I had a point to make for a while and didn't know where to.

Most people consider Shisami and Tagoma weaker than First Form Freeza (at least when he is revived) based on the fact that Shisami and Tagoma seem to have a sort of rivalry and Freeza killed Tagoma very easy. But, in truth, Freeza didn't fight Tagoma. He picked him up by surprise and threw him out of a window in space, where he died. What it shows is that Tagoma can't breath in space, not that he is necessarily weak.

And what of it? If Tagoma was stronger than first form Freeza, then he'd be able to resist the telekinesis. Hell, if Tagoma was stronger than first form Freeza, he wouldn't have gone to Earth to revive him, he'd be enough to control the army himself, Shisami too.

He shouldn't be able to release the telekinesis. A majority of great fighters couldn't resist Babidi, so I don't see a reason why Tagoma should be any different.

[Doctor.]

Because you didn't see Freeza using his super powerful telekinesis against someone stronger than him.

[Hugo Boss]

I am happy that this thread was revived since I had a point to make for a while and didn't know where to.

Most people consider Shisami and Tagoma weaker than First Form Freeza (at least when he is revived) based on the fact that Shisami and Tagoma seem to have a sort of rivalry and Freeza killed Tagoma very easy. But, in truth, Freeza didn't fight Tagoma. He picked him up by surprise and threw him out of a window in space, where he died. What it shows is that Tagoma can't breath in space, not that he is necessarily weak.

Hmm I highly doubt Freeza would be able to do that with someone stronger than him, but perhaps that could save Piccolo from being weaker than the weakest version of Freeza.

[h0kuten]

Because you didn't see Freeza using his super powerful telekinesis against someone stronger than him.

So?

It's still a reasonable explanation. Tagoma was taken off guard by his telekinesis and simply perished. We've seen how powerful off guard attacks are before:

a) Goku SSJG SS nearly being killed by an off guard attack
b) Piccolo kicking Frieza miles away despite being 60x weaker
c) Trunks kicking Majin Buu

[Doctor.]

Because you didn't see Freeza using his super powerful telekinesis against someone stronger than him.

So?

It's still a reasonable explanation. Tagoma was taken off guard by his telekinesis and simply perished. We've seen how powerful off guard attacks are before:

a) Goku SSJG SS nearly being killed by an off guard attack
b) Piccolo kicking Freeza miles away despite being 60x weaker
c) Trunks kicking Majin Buu

It doesn't make sense for Tagoma to be stronger than Freeza, otherwise he wouldn't have been revived and Tagoma wouldn't be acting all obedient in front of him, nor Shidami. You're making unreasonable assumptions about Freeza's powers when nothing has ever been hinted before about his telekinesis being that way. Occam's Razor applies here.

[h0kuten]

Because you didn't see Freeza using his super powerful telekinesis against someone stronger than him.

So?

It's still a reasonable explanation. Tagoma was taken off guard by his telekinesis and simply perished. We've seen how powerful off guard attacks are before:

a) Goku SSJG SS nearly being killed by an off guard attack
b) Piccolo kicking Freeza miles away despite being 60x weaker
c) Trunks kicking Majin Buu

It doesn't make sense for Tagoma to be stronger than Freeza, otherwise he wouldn't have been revived and Tagoma wouldn't be acting all obedient in front of him, nor Shidami. You're making unreasonable assumptions about Freeza's powers when nothing has ever been hinted before about his telekinesis being that way. Occam's Razor applies here.

Incorrect.

Frieza could simply, instantly, transform into his Final Form and single shot them.

Occam's Razor does not apply here because I am not making any assumptions.

[Doctor.]

Incorrect.

Freeza could simply, instantly, transform into his Final Form and single shot them.

Occam's Razor does not apply here because I am not making any assumptions.

Yes you are. You're assuming Freeza's telekinesis can directly affect stronger beings when nothing of the sort has ever been shown. You have two options:

A: Freeza was stronger and killed Tagoma with his own power.
B: Freeza was weaker and killed Tagoma with an attack that can hurt stronger beings, but he didn't use it against SS Goku or SSGSS Goku because he's stupid. Also, Tagoma is stupid too since he works for a being stronger than him.

It's clear as day that the first option is the one that makes more sense and it's also clear as day that Tagoma was portrayed to be weaker than Freeza for the simple fact that he worked for him and tried to revive him. If Tagoma was actually stronger, don't you think they'd do a better job showing why he's working for Freeza even though he's a lot more powerful? Don't you think they'd explain why they need Freeza if Tagoma could do the job? Sorbet seemed surprised when Freeza said he could increase his power a lot, so they didn't know anything about his potential, they were counting on his power prior to his revival and that's it.

Saying Tagoma is actually stronger than Freeza is the same as me saying Pilaf was stronger than Piccolo Daimao, the exact same thing.

[h0kuten]

Incorrect.

Freeza could simply, instantly, transform into his Final Form and single shot them.

Occam's Razor does not apply here because I am not making any assumptions.

Yes you are. You're assuming Freeza's telekinesis can directly affect stronger beings when nothing of the sort has ever been shown. You have two options:

A: Freeza was stronger and killed Tagoma with his own power.
B: Freeza was weaker and killed Tagoma with an attack that can hurt stronger beings, but he didn't use it against SS Goku or SSGSS Goku because he's stupid. Also, Tagoma is stupid too since he works for a being stronger than him.

It's clear as day that the first option is the one that makes more sense and it's also clear as day that Tagoma was portrayed to be weaker than Freeza for the simple fact that he worked for him and tried to revive him. If Tagoma was actually stronger, don't you think they'd do a better job showing why he's working for Freeza even though he's a lot more powerful? Don't you think they'd explain why they need Freeza if Tagoma could do the job? Sorbet seemed surprised when Freeza said he could increase his power a lot, so they didn't know anything about his potential, they were counting on his power prior to his revival and that's it.

Saying Tagoma is actually stronger than Freeza is the same as me saying Pilaf was stronger than Piccolo Daimao, the exact same thing.

We all know what an off guard attack does to people who aren't expecting it. This particular scenario is no exception.

He would work for Frieza out of dedication and honor, Frieza never had to show any of his power to anybody except the Saiyans so it's an over-statement to determine Tagoma knows how strong Frieza is as opposed to simply over-estimating him out of fear.

[Doctor.]

Except it took a few seconds before Tagoma was thrown off the ship. He'd have time to get his guard up and break free in that time, you're seriously reaching here.

Again, Pilaf was stronger than Daimao all along. Prove me wrong.

He would work for Freeza out of dedication and honor, Freeza never had to show any of his power to anybody except the Saiyans so it's an over-statement to determine Tagoma knows how strong Freeza is as opposed to simply over-estimating him out of fear.

Assumption and Mecha Freeza was a thing.

[h0kuten]

Except it took a few seconds before Tagoma was thrown off the ship. He'd have time to get his guard up and break free in that time, you're seriously reaching here.

Again, Pilaf was stronger than Daimao all along. Prove me wrong.

He would work for Freeza out of dedication and honor, Freeza never had to show any of his power to anybody except the Saiyans so it's an over-statement to determine Tagoma knows how strong Freeza is as opposed to simply over-estimating him out of fear.

Assumption and Mecha Freeza was a thing.

Nah, use my second form of logic and Tagoma could be simply shitting himself by this point, again, out of fear of Frieza's reputation and an over estimation on what he's truly capable of.

Tagoma and his ally weren't around for Mecha Frieza and probably never sensed them. Why? Because even Gohan says Frieza is WAYYY stronger than that; Frieza's Organic form.

[Doctor.]

Nah, use my second form of logic and Tagoma could be simply shitting himself by this point, again, out of fear of Freeza's reputation and an over estimation on what he's truly capable of.

Tagoma and his ally weren't around for Mecha Freeza and probably never sensed them. Why? Because even Gohan says Freeza is WAYYY stronger than that; Freeza's Organic form.

I'm not sure why you're so desperately trying to make sense out of this. You're reaching far, why are you going to such lengths to explain stuff when the answer is clear as day? You're reaching for conclusions the story never hinted at. Just say it doesn't make sense how Shisami was so powerful and move on. Until you do, I'll continue to say Pilaf was stronger than Daimao because obviously I can't be proven wrong as long as I can make any assumptions I want.