The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Sayo-chan]

All brain activity happens before you react, in any capacity. It'd be completely irrelevant if that was somehow magically bypassed,

Are you saying this in a series with literal magic, and characters who literally don't have brains?

Who exactly doesn't have a brain? Whis, Cell and Goku have a spine, hands and eyes, the fundamentals are the same. There's a suspension of disbelief we all have, I draw that line when something doesn't theoretically work whatsoever in-universe.

[Captain Space]

It was a poorly formulated offhand comment. A lot of stupid things are said in Dragon Ball (mainly because they don't put effort into it nowadays), but this may be the cherry on the cupcake.

I'm not saying it makes sense, but are you saying that this isn't the kind of thing that would be in the story 'back in the day'? Because it absolutely is; there wasn't ever exactly a process of rigorous scientific fact-checking going on.

[Sayo-chan]

It was a poorly formulated offhand comment. A lot of stupid things are said in Dragon Ball (mainly because they don't put effort into it nowadays), but this may be the cherry on the cupcake.

I'm not saying it makes sense, but are you saying that this isn't the kind of thing that would be in the story 'back in the day'? Because it absolutely is; there wasn't ever exactly a process of rigorous scientific fact-checking going on.

There doesn't have to be. Goku powers up, he gets stronger. That's logically valid. We expect things to be logically valid but not rational. This doesn't have a logical output, even in-universe. This isn't something that would be in before, not at all.

[LightBing]

Base Vegeta and Base Goku vs 100% Freeza

King Cold vs #19

King Cold vs Piccolo (Android Arc)

Spopovich vs Kuririn (21st Tenkaichi Budokai)

[DBZAOTA482]

Base Vegeta and Base Goku vs 100% Freeza

King Cold vs #19

King Cold vs Piccolo (Android Arc)

Spopovich vs Kuririn (21st Tenkaichi Budokai)

-Goku fits Freeza alone and stomps
-#19 steals Cold's energy and kills him
-Piccolo wins pretty comfortably
-Krillin bitch-slaps Spopovich's head off

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Base Vegeta and Base Goku vs 100% Freeza

King Cold vs #19

King Cold vs Piccolo (Android Arc)

Spopovich vs Kuririn (21st Tenkaichi Budokai)

-Depends on which arc. Either Cell Games incarnation could kill Freeza alone in my opinion.
-Android #19 kills him with a single full-force hit to the head.
-Piccolo > #20 post > #19 post > #20 pre > #19 pre > SS Trunks (Mecha) >> Mecha Freeza > 100% Freeza >/>> King Cold. Piccolo kills him with a glare.
-I'd say Krillin personally.

[Doctor.]

Base Vegeta and Base Goku vs 100% Freeza

King Cold vs #19

King Cold vs Piccolo (Android Arc)

Spopovich vs Kuririn (21st Tenkaichi Budokai)

Goku wins alone because he has Kaioken. Take it out and they both lose.
What version of 19? After he absorbed Goku's and Vegeta's Ki or before? If it's after, he wins easily. If it's before, I usually put both of them around half of Mecha Freeza's strength, so #19's energy absorption ability would allow him to win.
Piccolo would win, he defeated Gero after he had absorbed some of his and Vegeta's Ki.
Kuririn knocks Spopovich's head off.

[Captain Space]

There doesn't have to be. Goku powers up, he gets stronger. That's logically valid. We expect things to be logically valid but not rational. This doesn't have a logical output, even in-universe. This isn't something that would be in before, not at all.

Toriyama wouldn't have come up with something this biologically invalid back then? Why not? You could also say Freeza having an extra limb should be cutting into his available brain-space (not the correct term I'm sure but hopefully you know what I mean), reducing the chance his species is sapient like us, yet he thinks and operates like us just fine. Because he's a strange alien being who doesn't make complete biological sense. As is Whis.

Base Vegeta and Base Goku vs 100% Freeza

King Cold vs #19

King Cold vs Piccolo (Android Arc)

Spopovich vs Kuririn (21st Tenkaichi Budokai)

Base Goku and Vegeta when?

I guess #19. Trunks vs. Cold was even more of a curbstomp than the first half of Goku vs. 19, and I think even a little sick Goku was stronger than he was three years ago. (I think, might be wrong there.)

Piccolo; the beating he was able to hand out to #20 (who's at least as strong as 19 if not stronger) combined with him sparring with SSJ Goku (manga title page, but the only time the manga actually shows them training together) seem pretty good pointers.

Krillin with ease.

[Sayo-chan]

Toriyama wouldn't have come up with something this biologically invalid back then? Why not? You could also say Freeza having an extra limb should be cutting into his available brain-space (not the correct term I'm sure but hopefully you know what I mean), reducing the chance his species is sapient like us, yet he thinks and operates like us just fine. Because he's a strange alien being who doesn't make complete biological sense. As is Whis.

Of course he has. And we disregard it as nonsense. I'm specifically referring to his reason for Piccolo not needing food, concerning enzymes. Again, there's a suspension of disbelief we all have. I draw the line at something that has no valid logical output. The idea itself doesn't make sense. It's an offhand comment that they probably thought was clever. With Freeza, the idea that he can simply be sapient makes sense. The concept with Whis is not only redundant, but doesn't amount to anything consistent in the series. Do we rationalize every trivial comment in an attempt to make this series look better than it is? Or do we just disregard what's complete bullshit? I'm in favor of the latter. In fact, we do do the latter more often than not. See: plot holes. Sometimes we simply acknowledge them for what they are, contradictions, in the same way I'm acknowledging this as redundant and of no meaning.

[ZombieVito]

Base Vegeta and Base Goku vs 100% Freeza

King Cold vs #19

King Cold vs Piccolo (Android Arc)

Spopovich vs Kuririn (21st Tenkaichi Budokai)

I guess BoG Goku and Vegeta right? If they actually team up they would win after a good fight.
19 wins after absorptions. Losses before them.
Piccolo one shots the King.
People really underestimate Spopovitch and Yamu. They displayed impressive flight feats that can't be ignore. Spopovitch wins.

[Lord Beerus]

Base Vegeta and Base Goku vs 100% Freeza

King Cold vs #19

King Cold vs Piccolo (Android Arc)

Spopovich vs Kuririn (21st Tenkaichi Budokai)

- Freeza, easily. But only if this Base Goku and Vegeta from Freeza arc and prior
- #19 one shots
- Piccolo stomps
- Krillin wrecks Spopovich

[LonelyShadow]

SSJ2 Goku, SSJ2 Gohan and Majin Vegeta vs Fat Buu. (Goku and Vegeta stopped their fight earlier because they got more worried about Buu, all of them ate a Senzu Bean before the fight.)

SSJ2 Vegeta (Cell Games) vs Super Perfect Cell.

The reason for this one is because I believe that SPC wasn't as strong as SSJ2 Gohan, and since Vegeta was weaker than Goku and Gohan at this point of the story I would like to know your guys opinions.

Is it possible than a x2 Power-up for Vegeta could be enough to defeat Cell or Vegeta was miles below his rival? In my opinion, it could go either way.

Super Janemba vs Super Buu.

[ekrolo2]

SSJ2 Goku, SSJ2 Gohan and Majin Vegeta vs Fat Buu. (Goku and Vegeta stopped their fight earlier because they got more worried about Buu, all of them ate a Senzu Bean before the fight.)

SSJ2 Vegeta (Cell Games) vs Super Perfect Cell.

The reason for this one is because I believe that SPC wasn't as strong as SSJ2 Gohan, and since Vegeta was weaker than Goku and Gohan at this point of the story I would like to know your guys opinions.

Is it possible than a x2 Power-up for Vegeta could be enough to defeat Cell or Vegeta was miles below his rival? In my opinion, it could go either way.

Super Janemba vs Super Buu.

Unless Goku goes Super Saiyan 3, fuses with Vegeta via the dance or the two of them produce the biggest f*ck off Big Bang & Kamehameha combo attack they can, I don't see them killing Fat Buu as SSJ2s.

I think an x2 powerup would've been enough for Vegeta to kill regular Perfect Cell, but SPC? I doubt it, especially since he'd have an x2 boost of his own on top of his own vastly superior base strength in comparison to Vegeta's.

I consider Super Janemba & Super Buu even in-strength so if Buu doesn't ever use absorption I think they'd both kill one another. However, if Buu pulls the old absorption trick on him like he did to Gotenks & Gohan he'd win for sure.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

SSJ2 Goku, SSJ2 Gohan and Majin Vegeta vs Fat Buu.

Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P5.6-7
Goku: “Damn it! If either Vegeta or Gohan were alive, maybe we could have managed something…”
Piccolo: “…No, it probably wouldn’t matter how many people went at him…He wasn’t at that level…”

SSJ2 Vegeta (Cell Games) vs Super Perfect Cell.

Even Pre-Zenkai Cell slaughters Vegeta.

Super Janemba vs Super Buu.

Super Janemba never did anything impressive to me. I also don't see Super Saiyan Gogeta being capable of being Evil Boo, so Evil Boo wins this match for me.

[ahill1]

SSJ2 Goku, SSJ2 Gohan and Majin Vegeta vs Fat Buu. (Goku and Vegeta stopped their fight earlier because they got more worried about Buu, all of them ate a Senzu Bean before the fight.)

SSJ2 Vegeta (Cell Games) vs Super Perfect Cell.

The reason for this one is because I believe that SPC wasn't as strong as SSJ2 Gohan, and since Vegeta was weaker than Goku and Gohan at this point of the story I would like to know your guys opinions.

Is it possible than a x2 Power-up for Vegeta could be enough to defeat Cell or Vegeta was miles below his rival? In my opinion, it could go either way.

Super Janemba vs Super Buu.

1 - Piccolo said that it didn't matter if they were the 3 Saiyans against fat buu; It's not a question of numbers; Fat Buu would win.

2-Super Perfect Cell crushes Vegeta; SPC was very close to the power of Gohan and Gohan was far superior to Vegeta.

3-Super Buu would win easily; Goku SSJ3 could still put a fight with Super Janemba.

[Sayo-chan]

I see nothing to suggest that Cell and Gohan weren't equal or having a negligible difference in power. He'd witnessed Gohan's power, he had the sparks, he was confident. Also, an attack meant to kill a pretty much lifeless Vegeta severely wounded Gohan.

That said, Cell wins easily. He's freaked out by suppressed Cell fighting Goku. I see no reason to believe it'd be anywhere near enough, especially seeing Majin Vegeta likely isn't too much stronger than SSJ2 Gohan at the Cell Games.

SSJ Vegeta - 10
SSJ Goku - 15
SSJ Gohan - 18

Perfect Cell initial - 16
Perfect Cell full speed - 19
Perfect Cell full power - 21
Super Perfect Cell - 35-37

SSJ2 Vegeta - 20
SSJ2 Goku - 30
SSJ2 Gohan - 36

[ahill1]

I see nothing to suggest that Cell and Gohan weren't equal or having a negligible difference in power. He'd witnessed Gohan's power, he had the sparks, he was confident. Also, an attack meant to kill a pretty much lifeless Vegeta severely wounded Gohan.

That said, Cell wins easily. He's freaked out by suppressed Cell fighting Goku. I see no reason to believe it'd be anywhere near enough, especially seeing Majin Vegeta likely isn't too much stronger than SSJ2 Gohan at the Cell Games.

SSJ Vegeta - 10
SSJ Goku - 15
SSJ Gohan - 18

Perfect Cell initial - 16
Perfect Cell full speed - 19
Perfect Cell full power - 21
Super Perfect Cell - 35-37

SSJ2 Vegeta - 20
SSJ2 Goku - 30
SSJ2 Gohan - 36

I do not think Perfect Cell (full speed) exceeds SSJ Gohan; Gohan was lack of will to fight and yet the Cell blows not affected much. The only time we saw Gohan use maximum effort was when he kicked Cell in the face.
I also think that you could increase the distance between Goku and Gohan. Goku could not touch Cell and Cell could not touch Gohan - big difference.

SSJ Goku 10
Cell (vs Goku) 11.2
Cell (vs gohan) 14
SSJ Gohan 15
Cell (full power) 45
Gohan SSJ2 75

Cell (zenkai) 72

[Captain Space]

Toriyama wouldn't have come up with something this biologically invalid back then? Why not? You could also say Freeza having an extra limb should be cutting into his available brain-space (not the correct term I'm sure but hopefully you know what I mean), reducing the chance his species is sapient like us, yet he thinks and operates like us just fine. Because he's a strange alien being who doesn't make complete biological sense. As is Whis.

Of course he has. And we disregard it as nonsense. I'm specifically referring to his reason for Piccolo not needing food, concerning enzymes. Again, there's a suspension of disbelief we all have. I draw the line at something that has no valid logical output. The idea itself doesn't make sense. It's an offhand comment that they probably thought was clever. With Freeza, the idea that he can simply be sapient makes sense. The concept with Whis is not only redundant, but doesn't amount to anything consistent in the series. Do we rationalize every trivial comment in an attempt to make this series look better than it is? Or do we just disregard what's complete bullshit? I'm in favor of the latter. In fact, we do do the latter more often than not. See: plot holes. Sometimes we simply acknowledge them for what they are, contradictions, in the same way I'm acknowledging this as redundant and of no meaning.

Both the Freeza thing and the Whis thing are equally as biologically screwy (since there's no indication Freeza's brain is wired any differently than ours, at least no more than Whis'). However, if I'm understanding correctly--and do correct me if I'm not, I may be misinterpreting you--you're now saying Toriyama would use the same kind of screwy logic back in the series' original run. Which is basically my point. That this kind of scientific ridiculousness is nothing new, whatever your stance on accepting or questioning it is.

[Kamiccolo9]

Toriyama wouldn't have come up with something this biologically invalid back then? Why not? You could also say Freeza having an extra limb should be cutting into his available brain-space (not the correct term I'm sure but hopefully you know what I mean), reducing the chance his species is sapient like us, yet he thinks and operates like us just fine. Because he's a strange alien being who doesn't make complete biological sense. As is Whis.

Of course he has. And we disregard it as nonsense. I'm specifically referring to his reason for Piccolo not needing food, concerning enzymes. Again, there's a suspension of disbelief we all have. I draw the line at something that has no valid logical output. The idea itself doesn't make sense. It's an offhand comment that they probably thought was clever. With Freeza, the idea that he can simply be sapient makes sense. The concept with Whis is not only redundant, but doesn't amount to anything consistent in the series. Do we rationalize every trivial comment in an attempt to make this series look better than it is? Or do we just disregard what's complete bullshit? I'm in favor of the latter. In fact, we do do the latter more often than not. See: plot holes. Sometimes we simply acknowledge them for what they are, contradictions, in the same way I'm acknowledging this as redundant and of no meaning.

Both the Freeza thing and the Whis thing are equally as biologically screwy (since there's no indication Freeza's brain is wired any differently than ours, at least no more than Whis'). However, if I'm understanding correctly--and do correct me if I'm not, I may be misinterpreting you--you're now saying Toriyama would use the same kind of screwy logic back in the series' original run. Which is basically my point. That this kind of scientific ridiculousness is nothing new, whatever your stance on accepting or questioning it is.

Well, in a purely literal sense, the fact that Freeza can function with his brain cut in half, and isn't incapacitated by being cut into pieces in general would indicate that his nervous system is, indeed, "wired differently" than ours

[Captain Space]

Admittedly I forgot that he sustained a head injury as well as being cut up. My bad. Still, surely "he did this impossible-in-the-real-world thing therefore that's how his body works", which is what's at play here, is what's going on with Whis too.