Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Sayo-chan wrote:
The reason why I think that SPC isn't really that strong compared to SSJ2 Gohan, it's because of the beam struggle, before that Gohan was a little damaged by Cell when he was trying to fight him as a FPSSJ, after that, he got hit by the "Kill Super Vegeta Laser" while he was protecting Vegeta and lost one of his arms for the rest of the fight, much like Goku when he fought Super Janemba, he lost his confidence to fight in that state. On the opposite side, Cell was not only fine, he was perfect ( ), he received a big Zenkai due the fact that he used a technique that was meant to kill him, before that, he was proven superior to Gohan as a FPSSJ, but I don't think that the Zenkai itself wasn't as big to make him x2 as strong.
When the struggle began Gohan did the Kamehameha with only one arm, he was probably weaker because of his arm, according to Goku, he was holding back due to the fact that he was worried about what could happen to the planet earth and probably he had a rock inside one of his shoes. With everything taking account he could probably be at almost 65% what his full power should be (if my statement of the rock is correct make that a 25%), after that, his power exploded and he defeated Cell while Vegeta distracted him with a tiny ki blast (remember, being off-guard in the DB universe is death), even with that being said, it didn't look like Cell was able to do something after that. And that's the reason why I believe he wasn't completely on the "SSJ2 tier", Cell isn't vastly weaker than Gohan, I'll say that at his Full Power he is 80%-ish SSJ2 Gohan.
Perfect Cell initial - 16
Perfect Cell full speed - 19
Perfect Cell full power - 21
Super Perfect Cell - 35-37
SSJ2 Vegeta - 20
SSJ2 Goku - 30
SSJ2 Gohan - 36
Also, why is SSJ Gohan so strong compared to Goku? I though that the only reason why Goku was so confident about Gohan, i'ts because he knew of his transformation that goes beyond a normal Super Saiyan, he could be stronger, but not that much (at least in my opinion.) Anyways, thanks to everyone for giving your opinion about this little thingy!
Your opinion is not uncommon, however, I'm one of the few that doesn't share it. I'll do my best to articulate why:
In researching Cell's anatomy over the past year, I've studied the last couple of chapters of the Cell Games really well. Gohan is initially confident, so's Cell. Goku's pissed off he's still alive. Why he didn't feel him power up in the afterlife? Plot hole? I don't know. Maybe Cell went to Namek to relax for a few minutes and chat with the locals about how Freeza sucks. Anyway, Gohan's ki is cut in half, he states this. He says Cell's powered up more than he thought, implying that either he wasn't expecting the blast to do much damage (i.e. he underestimated him, thus perhaps voiding his initial confidence all together), he's truly terrified by cell powering up his Kamehameha or both. Goku motivates Gohan to retaliate, that he can win. Gohan believes in himself, until Cell pushes too hard. If you were Gohan and you're pushing, and by the looks of the panels he is, wouldn't you feel tapped out? Like it's over? Now if you were Goku, wouldn't you wanna motivate your kid to do the absolute best he can do, even if it's not enough? We don't know if Goku can feel Cell's ki through Kaio. Filler implies it's felt all the way to Namek, but that's neither here nor there (just an interesting factoid). My bet is he can't, so if we operate under the assumption that Goku doesn't know how strong Cell is. He also doesn't know to what extent Gohan's injured, beyond what he can see anyhow. All he knows that Gohan, when enraged freaks out and goes overboard, beyond what he has left sometimes. Vegeta touches on this during his fight with Dabra. If we analyze the struggle in the manga, Gohan's losing throughout the entire thing. He regains some confidence, but it's immediately shutdown. Why? Cell's overpowering him.
Panel of Gohan with confidence again:
I'm not saying it's like he had before, but it's clearly enough to think he has a chance.
So what happens next is when the beams hit:
Immediately, Gohan's feeling the pressure and struggling. Immediately, whereas Cell is pretty much laughing through his teeth, enjoying every second of it.
It doesn't last long at all, only a few pages, but in those few pages, Gohan loses. Cell enters the finishing blow just as Vegeta hits him. Gohan doesn't notice, so Goku has to alert him about it (the chance to kill Cell). He uses his remaining strength to shift the beam struggle in his favor and win. By the time Cell looks back, his body's already being destroyed. What could he do? Jumping out of the in-universe thinking for a second, if Gohan could win purely on his own power, then why did Toriyama give him two people to help? It seems to me like Gohan gave it what he could, realized that if he gave a push like with the one he killed Cell with, that it wouldn't be enough and it'd just exhaust his ki. In fact, this is supported by the fact Gohan drops into his base form after the fight, having to be carried by yamcha to God's love shack. Remember that if Cell wasn't distracted, it wouldn't disintegrate him so fast, which means he could use Goku's Instantaneous Movement to get out of the way, like Goku did with his Kamehameha. That's even assuming he couldn't push it back, which I'm betting he could.
When I said: "his power exploded" I was indeed referring to Gohan's rage boost, thanks to that he was able to overpower Cell (this is referenced again during the scenes where Gohan, now as a young adult, tries to remember how to feel angry again before he tried to stop Majin Buu's hatch), if this was Adult Gohan things would be pretty different, since he doesn't have that power up and also lost some skill, meaning that Cell has the upper hand in that scenario.
This is just an opinion, just like the most of the threat, but I believe that Toriyama gave him 2 people as a handicap because he actually wasn't brave as many people remember.
Looking back, Goku had to talk to Gohan before the fight in order to actually make him fight:
Spoiler:
*After Goku gave up and stated that Gohan would be Cell's oponent he went flying towards Gohan*
- Goku: "Son, Kill that cockroach. Seriously. It's creeping me out, I mean, just look at it! it's huge!"
- Everyone else: "Goku! Cell too strong! No nerf 'til the next patch! Gohan = Dead."
- Goku: "Go mah son. Become a scholar."
- Gohan: "You're the worst parent in the Universe, but I heard the word scholar, becoming one has been my dream since mom pointed me with a gun yelling at me about it when I was 2."
- Cell: "Cockroach?! That's offensive man. Just for that I'm going to crap the most powerful Cell Jr. just for you."
I don't want to get too deep with Toriyama's characters since that's not the kind that he created, but my conclusion is that he wanted to show how immature Gohan was and why did he needed help in order to defeat Cell, at that moment he was 9 (10-ish), and that's reflected when Gohan didn't kill Cell before the Zenkai.
For a more "interesting" match (something like Goku vs Cell), Gohan looked pretty confident about facing Cell, although, I don't know if this is a terrible translation and Cell probably still had some power hidden inside him.
Spoiler:
*Gohan turns Super Saiyan 2*
- Gohan: "You killed my father, so... me kill you." *+10 confidence*
- Cell: "Y-yeah? W-well, YOUR MOM!"
- Vegeta: "Trunks-kun looks nice when he's dying..."
He also reiterates his state a few panels after he realizes how weak he is in that state compared to Cell:
Spoiler:
- Gohan: "Aw man. If I wasn't bleeding out through my broken arm I would beat the shit out of you. I swear, this isn't an excuse."
Cell: "I honestly don't know why I haven't shot this Kamehameha. The power I have stored right now it's more than enough to destroy the earth."
As for the "returning to his base form" Goku said that he could beat Kid Buu at full power (that's up to debate, I honestly don't see that happening since Buu showed some amazing regeneration abilities compared to Cell's and Goku was equal or weaker than Buu during the fight) I'm pretty sure that if he actually manage to kill Buu he would also go back to his base form, exhausted and with a brown stain on his pants.
For the "pushing back", there's a big possibility that Cell could be able to endure the struggle a little bit more if he wasn't distracted, then again, I don't really see that happening since, in my opinion, Cell's Zenkai doesn't equal Gohan's SSJ2 full power + Angry boost.
Sayo-chan wrote:It doesn't last long at all, only a few pages, but in those few pages, Gohan loses.
Wasn't that because, as Gohan already stated, his power was cut to a half?
Spoiler:
- Goku: "Gohan, get your shit together, Kill him. I believe in you."
- Kaio-sama: "Koku, if you want better reception you have to touch me a little bit lower..."
- Gohan: "Dad, with all the due respect I have for you, I have a broken arm, my power is less that half as normal. One thing is having hopes, the other is just being plain stupid.
- Cell: "Did I hit Gas Station with a beam or something? That kid is talking all alone. Maybe he's very high with the smell of gasoline, mmm... That is indeed the best shit ever"
Also, I honestly don't know if: Battle damage = Less Ki. But in a panel before the longest struggle began Piccolo state that Gohan's ki was weaker, again, IMO, the reason why this happens, it's because he got severely hurt by "da Lazer."
Spoiler:
- Cell: "Ok, I'm going to shoot the thing!"
- Piccolo: "Oh shit dude, Gohan's ki is weaker! Also, I just realize why people give me a weird stare, but I won't tell anyone why."
Sayo-chan wrote:I recall something, which may be anime only, about how Goku says Gohan's stronger than him. That's why I made him slightly stronger.
I don't remember if the line where Goku says that his son is stronger than him is in the manga, or in the original dub or just a line from the FUNanimation. But there's a small possibility that I heard the exact same line in the Latino dub (which is very loyal to the manga.) I only asked you that because an 18 for SSJ Gohan seemed like a little bit too much compared to 15 SSJ Goku.
I would really like to know something, how far did the blast go after the struggle was over? Seriously, everyone was like: "Yay, Cell's dead!" But what about the innocent planet that got hit by that Kamehameha? And what about the people that got killed during the filler where Kid Buu destroyed dozens of planets and then they asked to revive everyone who died after the tournament began? Did the people who lived on those destroyed planets just die in space after getting revived since Porunga didn't restore those places?
Dragon Ball can be really fucked up sometimes.
Last edited by LonelyShadow on Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P2.3-4 Context: after Gohan powers up Vegeta: “That brat…How did he get such a gigantic battle power?…This is impossible…!” Cell: “Looks like what Son Goku said wasn’t a complete bluff…But it seems he overstated things a little when he said you could defeat me…”
Goku admits he can't beat Cell, then tells Cell that Gohan will defeat him. Cell says saying Gohan can beat him is an overstatement, but he also says it wasn't an entire bluff (keep in mind Cell doesn't know Goku is taking into account Gohan's rage and is basing this off of the Super Saiyan 1 Ki he's sensing from Gohan). So yes, Gohan is stronger than Goku at the Cell Games.
That, coupled with the title of the chapter with Gohan stepping in being called "The One Who Surpasses Goku".
I don't don't trust scanlations, and I gotta agree with SSJ2FutureGohan here with what he just posted.
Now onto the rage boost. Let's assume Gohan's at 45% of his power as suggested. He's losing because he's weakened, as you stated. If we assume the rage boost is 60% of his power, theoretically more than he had left, then If he was at 100% this would be 115%. I don't buy the immature narrative there. It just doesn't seem implied. Gohan's psychotic in his SSJ2 state. He tortures Cell as a form of revenge. When he comes back to Earth, as we both noted, he was super confident, but so was Cell. That one blast takes Gohan by surprise. It's imperative that we note he says: "O...Oh... Ce... Cell's power has shot up more than I thought..." (Something like: お... おもつたいじように セ...セルのパワーが アップしていた...). When he's talking to his dad, he says:
Herms wrote:Chapter: 415 (DBZ 221), P6.2-5
Context: after Gohan's injured saving Vegeta, and Cell charges up his final Kamehameha
Goku: “Go strike with an all-out Kamehameha, like Cell! If you do that, you’ll definitely win! Absolutely!”
Gohan: “B-but, the way I am now…I can only use one arm, and even my ki is already less than half…”
[ ]
Goku: “That’s alright, you can win! Believe in your own power! Show me one last time…The power we created together!”
The first statement implies that Gohan underestimated Cell and didn't expect him to be so strong. That means his confidence may not have been justified.
But with Goku, that's a hypothetical. Gohan literally falls to the Earth exhausted, he can't fly, he can't walk. He has nothing left. That's why he's being carried. If that extra 15% was really enough to kill him, then the distraction wouldn't be necessary. Instead, the second he turns back, he's already being eaten alive. Cell would only need a split second to react and teleport, but even then, I look at all that ki he's putting out. He's not damaged in the slightest, there's a very good chance he could handle that rage boost if he was paying attention. Now could Gohan handle Cell's finisher with his rage boost? That's something we'll never know.
LonelyShadow wrote:Also, I honestly don't know if: Battle damage = Less Ki. But in a panel before the longest struggle began Piccolo state that Gohan's ki was weaker, again, IMO, the reason why this happens, it's because he got severely hurt by "da Lazer."
Why wouldn't battle damage = less ki? He got hurt, he lost ki.
LonelyShadow wrote:I would really like to know something, how far did the blast go after the struggle was over?
It doesn't. It looks like Cell ate the entirety of the beam. Half of it was his ki being used against him also, so that's something to factor in. I say this because we don't see it shoot anywhere in the manga. Now the anime, the anime shows the beam shoot maybe to where the Moon would be before it dies. Final Flash however, that thing went on and on and on, who knows what it destroyed.
Most Dragon Ball fans are incapable of making a logically sound argument.
Sayo-chan wrote:1. Yes, but this nullifies ki completely. It's basically just a martial arts battle. Remember their battle powers are both 10, so I would definitely say it factors in (strength+weight). What's special about Goku's battle instinct? That's vague. We're pretty much throwing special powers out the window, so what does his battle instinct do? It's been theorized that to be an efficient killer/fighter you have to have a bloodlust, so presumably Mr. Satan has that. Grappling in an arena can make or break a fighter, so it's a pretty big deal. Look at Ali vs Inoki. Boxing alone proved to be highly inefficient against catch wrestling. Look at wing chun in general. It's superior to mantis and plumb fist, yet it still falls short, because there's an inherent problem with traditional Chinese martial arts. Goku's moves are extremely flashy, which makes them all the more impractical when you don't have super powers to back you up.
Piccolo I will agree seems to be highly skilled, but Vegeta? He shows good form and technique here and there, but he primarily relies on ki, like everyone at that point. So what would Goku have learned from him via a martial arts standpoint? Probably nothing. Maybe how not to get stomped on? Now Freeza, Freeza has an anatomical advantage over Goku. However, I'm fairly sure Freeza doesn't know any martial arts whatsoever, as you seemed to point out. Mr. Satan isn't like Freeza, so the moves he learned to defend against a small anaerobic creature with a tail are fairly useless, especially considering biting seems to be the only thing. If we take away the ki aspect, what experience has he gained? He increased his battle power, which was the deciding factor throughout the fight. That isn't relevant here. I wouldn't underestimate humans so easily. If we ignore battle powers and special techniques, I very much so doubt Goku would have it so easy. It basically comes down to three factors, no? Strength, speed and skill. Satan's got superior strength. Speed? Hard to say. Goku should naturally have better acceleration, but Satan's gonna hit a lot harder (f=m*a). So if Goku gets pinned under Satan's weight in a way that he's too weak to break free from, then what?
4. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. Although, it is pretty much magic.
5. Yes, but it wasn't that effective. Kaio-ken destroyed Goku's body. Its result really just pissed Vegeta off and made him turn into an Oozaru. Vegeta, after getting his ass whooped, half blind and soaked in blood is still standing.
6. Does not the Boohan have the years of experience as well though? Is he not a creature that was around before the time? Who knows what experience he racked up when he wasn't sealed up. Even if we ignore that and say he's ignorant of most of it, doesn't he have most of their memories, meaning they're pretty much part of his life, collectively? If you create a clone with everything you know, how is he not you beyond your conscious attention? If their power is equal, I'm still not understanding what gives Beerus an edge. It seems to follow as, "because he's Beerus, he's been around a long time and trained by someone we really don't know much about".
7. He might, he might not. We have to go by what we have. As far as we know, his greater power than Beerus is what allows him to train him. Can you imagine him taking him seriously if he could easily curb stomp him? Why exactly would he need any special abilities if nobody can touch him? The more power goes up, the less of a requirement there is for actual realistic fighting skills. That said, this also really sounds like, "Whis is Whis, so he probably has super secret powers because he's a god". Martial arts only really changes if your anatomy is significantly different, like Freeza's. Now Cell, he has the power of SSJ4 at his disposal, at least that's how I'm interpreting it in the conditions. I could say the timelines are the same, Cell can do Kaio-ken x180 or their battle powers are the same, but I figured they'd be within each other's range without all that. Granted Cell can still use Kaio-ken, presumably better than Goku. In fact, if both the manga and anime took techniques that everyone had, gave them to Cell but better, why couldn't he have a sort of... perfect Kaio-ken? I'd imagine that to be a boost without repercussions, but I digress. What do we know about Whis that would give him an edge that isn't bared from the fight?
8. Where exactly is that implied...? How could it be? GT hasn't happened yet, might not happen at all. Is this what you're referring to:
Herms wrote:After Goku and Vegeta use a merging item to merge, they become Vegetto! They can furthermore become a Super Saiyan, making them Super Vegetto! After the two strongest people merge, they become the greatest master in the universe! Perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4!
In conjunction with Goku's unreliable guess about Vegetto being reliable against Beerus? First, the guidebook says perhaps, so there's nothing definitive, just that at some point in GT SSJ4 as a transformation would be. This can be taken one of two ways, that if Goku or Vegeta went SSJ4 at that moment, it might not be as effective as Vegetto. The other, that SSJ4 might be inferior to Vegetto as a whole. Again, it's one big maybe. I'd take it with a grain of salt. Second, Goku has no idea what Vegetto's limits are, and Vegetto doesn't either, so how would he know? It's guesswork. More over, LSSJ4 > SSJ4. I don't see how that puts him below Taco Bell Freeza.
singsing wrote:There's that RoF training where Whis shows how he can fight without thinking and his limbs all move independently.
I've heard this from another user here. I reject it outright. It's nonsensical. You're not supposed to think when it comes to basic hybrid eclecticism, so there's nothing special about that. Now, his limbs moving independently is the kicker, Boo can do that. So what? Your limbs work together to be able to things, it seems incredibly counterproductive.
1. Hypothetically speaking, if both fighters each have a power level of 10, there should be zero difference in strength, as power level and strength are more or less synonymous. Even if that weren't the case, and we give strength it's own category, Hercule likely wouldn't be the one who shines in that department. Being a Saiyan, Goku's physique and muscular fibers are better suited for combat, and hence his body's ability to exert physical strength would also be superior to a human fighter. Couple that with his speed, and Hercule's chances don't look too good. In any case, Roshi seemed to have done a pretty fine job grooming Goku to be an adept martial artist.
6. If Buu was so gifted, he wouldn't have resorted to absorbing a trivial fighter like Piccolo. Considering how he needed a supplementation in intellect against a fighter like Gohan, it's pretty safe to assume that he sure as heck doesn't have the right hand to trump Beerus or Whis. I can't envision either one of them ever needing to borrow Piccolo's mind for any reason.
7. I don't know, Cell never really stood out in my opinion. Just because he has the blood of Goku / Vegeta, Piccolo, and Frieza coursing through his veins, and his existence is primarily fueled by their cells, doesn't mean he's automatically in league with them. Again, culturing cells on a petri dish and having some computer (of all things) utilize those cells to materialize a fighter doesn't sound too promising. I guess in theory, Cell could be what you say he is, but until we actually see this happening, I can only deem it as a speculation.
8. In GT, both Goku and Vegeta were absurdly overpowered, but they still fell short of Omega Shenron, who I envision is a few notches below Beerus, and worlds below Whis. The point I'm trying to make is, if an insanely powerful Super Saiyan 4 duo was unable to take down Omega Shenron, how could Broly possibly reach Beerus / Whis tier?
I mean, is it possible? Sure. Do I personally feel that he could get that far? No.
Generously speaking, the highest I could see the over hyped legend getting to is around Final Form Frieza (FnF) tier, if that.
I. I really should've just said equal stats it seems, across the board. May as well make Satan a Saiyan, or Goku Human, Actually, Dark Satan from Xenoverse would be something to consider.
VI. That's a fair point, and I'll concede that. That said, you're right, they wouldn't, but Boo's like a sculpt. The more he takes in, the more defined he becomes. I see the point you're making being applicable to Evil Boo, but not Boohan.
VII. Well this is also speculation for the most part, aside from Cell actually demonstrating he does everything better than his genetic fodder. But for the most part it seems like this really just a clash of opinions and I don't see it going beyond that.
VIII. Well I mean, that's just an assumption of where Yī Xīng Lóng is in terms of power. By that logic he couldn't. LSSJ4 (I don't remember if I brought that up or not) would be vastly superior to SSJ4. In fact, I'm not even sure what LSSJ is. I heard it's not even a real thing.
Well in any case, I'd like to see Broly strangle the Taco Bell Freeza.
Most Dragon Ball fans are incapable of making a logically sound argument.
Sayo-chan wrote:I. I really should've just said equal stats it seems, across the board. May as well make Satan a Saiyan, or Goku Human, Actually, Dark Satan from Xenoverse would be something to consider.
VI. That's a fair point, and I'll concede that. That said, you're right, they wouldn't, but Boo's like a sculpt. The more he takes in, the more defined he becomes. I see the point you're making being applicable to Evil Boo, but not Boohan.
VII. Well this is also speculation for the most part, aside from Cell actually demonstrating he does everything better than his genetic fodder. But for the most part it seems like this really just a clash of opinions and I don't see it going beyond that.
VIII. Well I mean, that's just an assumption of where Yī Xīng Lóng is in terms of power. By that logic he couldn't. LSSJ4 (I don't remember if I brought that up or not) would be vastly superior to SSJ4. In fact, I'm not even sure what LSSJ is. I heard it's not even a real thing.
Well in any case, I'd like to see Broly strangle the Taco Bell Freeza.
1. No matter how many different ways we spin this, I feel a Roshi trained Goku, who's had the opportunity to tangle with Yamcha (seasoned human fighter), Jackie Chun (top-tier human master), Grandpa Gohan (top-tier human master), Nam, Krillin (top-tier human fighter), Tien (another top-tier fighter), Piccolo, Vegeta, and Frieza has far too much experience under his belt to go down at the hands of someone like Hercule. I've always been under the impression that Hercule sort of muscled his way into victory, after having the luxury of being placed in an easy bracket.
6. Well since Buuhan's mind is primarily fueled by Piccolo's prowess and overall brainpower, I'd say it's still not enough to outshine Beerus, and definitely not Whis. Although in some regards the Namekian may be considered a fighting genius with nearly unrivaled tactical ingenuity, in no shape or form, would he ever be able to give Buu enough wits to defeat a seasoned master like Whis. In the unlikely case Beerus somehow slips up, Whis would step in and top anything and everything the leeching menace dishes out.
7. Yes, I do see some validity behind your points, so let's agree to disagree.
8. Quite frankly, I don't really have an opinion on the whole LSSJ thing. It seems like another over hyped feature that comes in the same package as the over hyped legend himself. Without even delving into the intricate details of canonicity, I find it very unlikely for Broly to be able to amass the power necessitated to rival the top fighters in BoG or FnF.
Golden Frieza would incinerate him in a matter of seconds, and revel over the fact that he's added another name onto the long list of Saiyans he's destroyed.
I guess I see your point about Whis now, Sayo-chan. Doesn't bother me, but I get what you're saying. I was thinking before you meant that one was completely scientifically sound and the other wasn't or something.
-
New match:
Action Comics #1 Superman* vs. chapter 1 Goku.
(*For those who are gonna leap in and say "Superman OP solos universe", this was way before he got crazy powerful. Not that I'm against Superman winning this match, I just want to make it clear for those who might not know that this is a very different character.)
"Actually I didn’t know what Bulma’s real hair color was" --Toriyama
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.
I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.
DBZAOTA482 wrote:Videl vs. Ronda Rousey (restriction of flight)
Ronda puts Videl in an armbar and makes Videl tap in seconds.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P2.3-4 Context: after Gohan powers up Vegeta: “That brat…How did he get such a gigantic battle power?…This is impossible…!” Cell: “Looks like what Son Goku said wasn’t a complete bluff…But it seems he overstated things a little when he said you could defeat me…”
Goku admits he can't beat Cell, then tells Cell that Gohan will defeat him. Cell says saying Gohan can beat him is an overstatement, but he also says it wasn't an entire bluff (keep in mind Cell doesn't know Goku is taking into account Gohan's rage and is basing this off of the Super Saiyan 1 Ki he's sensing from Gohan). So yes, Gohan is stronger than Goku at the Cell Games.
That, coupled with the title of the chapter with Gohan stepping in being called "The One Who Surpasses Goku".
Good morning, as I said before: "he could be stronger, but not that much (at least in my opinion.)" I haven't denied that SSJ Kid Gohan > SSJ Goku, with that being said, the only thing I differ is with the kind of big gap between the 2 saiyans stated by Sayo-chan. Because there's a big difference between 15 and 18 in terms of power. In my opinion Gohan could be a 16.5 compared to Goku's 15.
Wasn't Goku secure of Gohan's power level because he saw the Super Saiyan 2 transformation during their training on the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and not because of the huge gap between them as Full-Power Super Saiyan that could allow Gohan to defeat Cell?
Sayo-chan wrote:I don't don't trust scanlations, and I gotta agree with SSJ2FutureGohan here with what he just posted.
Now onto the rage boost. Let's assume Gohan's at 45% of his power as suggested. He's losing because he's weakened, as you stated. If we assume the rage boost is 60% of his power, theoretically more than he had left, then If he was at 100% this would be 115%. I don't buy the immature narrative there. It just doesn't seem implied. Gohan's psychotic in his SSJ2 state. He tortures Cell as a form of revenge. When he comes back to Earth, as we both noted, he was super confident, but so was Cell. That one blast takes Gohan by surprise. It's imperative that we note he says: "O...Oh... Ce... Cell's power has shot up more than I thought..." (Something like: お... おもつたいじように セ...セルのパワーが アップしていた...). When he's talking to his dad, he says:
Herms wrote:Chapter: 415 (DBZ 221), P6.2-5
Context: after Gohan's injured saving Vegeta, and Cell charges up his final Kamehameha
Goku: “Go strike with an all-out Kamehameha, like Cell! If you do that, you’ll definitely win! Absolutely!”
Gohan: “B-but, the way I am now…I can only use one arm, and even my ki is already less than half…”
[ ]
Goku: “That’s alright, you can win! Believe in your own power! Show me one last time…The power we created together!”
The first statement implies that Gohan underestimated Cell and didn't expect him to be so strong. That means his confidence may not have been justified.
I'm not really good with translations so I'll trust you with that quote, So, you're assuming that this point of the story the rage boost gives him a 15% power up? Seems ok to me,
I guess.
When I referred to the immature narrative, I was talking about this:
Spoiler:
*Gohan defeats Cell in the Kamehameha clash (Note: Perfect Cell, not Super Perfect)*
- Cell: "I know I'm evil, but could you guys help me find my legs?"
- Goku: "This is amazing! I found a dollar in the middle of nowhere! Hurry up Gohan! Mah money can't wait to be invested!"
- Vegeta: "Kakarot, I know that a few moments ago I said some things, but it was because I thought that we were about to die, sadly it isn't true. I don't love you. I'm in love with Trunks, when you stay with a person for a whole year especial things happen between them."
- Gohan: "Hmph."
- Goku: "Ugh, son I'm serious I want to go eat something. Finish him off! You're the only one who can do it! I mean, in this very moment any of us could blast Cell with literally anything since he doesn't even has any limbs, but anyways... Hurry! Didn't you want to become a scholar or something?"
- Gohan: "Scholar? Heh. Sorry papi, now I'm a bad boy, I don't follow your rules anymore."
- Piccolo: "That's on you Goku."
- Cell:: "Welp, it doesn't seem to be a kindly and help me with my "limby" problem, I rather just regenerate them. Fuck it."
- Goku: "If I die... take care of my dollar."
Was the torture Gohan provided to Cell a way of revenge? Yes. Was it immature? Of course, he should have finished the job, but I guess that nobody in the Dragon Ball universe gets the job done (except Trunks when he can.)
Even if that wasn't Toriyama's desire, he had his power cut to a half during the struggle, probably meaning that Cell was also holding back some of his full power, either way, if Gohan was indeed at 45% - 50% I don't see any reason why getting help from 2 people makes him weaker compared to Cell, if the subject himself couldn't defeat a kid with a broken arm and at half of his power that actually makes him look way weaker in comparison, which shouldn't be the case, because if the case is that: during the struggle SPC (80%-ish a 32?) vs SSJ2 Gohan (45% - 60% a 35?) (32 and 35 for their powers, since they don't seem to be exactly equal to each other, Cell could be fighting against Buu at 100% but it won't enough to deal with him at 30%) doesn't seem right. But that's the way I interpret what you were writing, if I'm wrong, feel free to notify me.
As for the quote: "O...Oh... Ce... Cell's power has shot up more than I thought...", I don't know if you agree with me, but any character can get hurt by a vastly inferior adversary if they are taken off-guard:
Spoiler:
*Context: Trunks is flying at full speed towards his Majin parent, while the mentioned gets repeatedly punched in the face by Majin Buu*
- Babidi: "Was that a flying squirrel?"
- Majin Buu: "Punching this person is fun!"
*Trunks kicks Buu in the face while he is distracted having fun with Vegeta and is sent flying fairly far away*
- Majin Vegeta: "Even my son does a better job than me in middle of combat, that's it! I'm going to kill myself."
Also, yes, they probably thought that the Zenkai Cell received wasn't as great as it actually was, but that doesn't really seem to be a reason for me to believe that SPC was exactly at the same level as Gohan.
Sayo-chan wrote:But with Goku, that's a hypothetical. Gohan literally falls to the Earth exhausted, he can't fly, he can't walk. He has nothing left. That's why he's being carried. If that extra 15% was really enough to kill him, then the distraction wouldn't be necessary. Instead, the second he turns back, he's already being eaten alive. Cell would only need a split second to react and teleport, but even then, I look at all that ki he's putting out. He's not damaged in the slightest, there's a very good chance he could handle that rage boost if he was paying attention. Now could Gohan handle Cell's finisher with his rage boost? That's something we'll never know.
Of course, just like 60% of the statements presented in Dragon Ball it's a hypothetical case, there could be many reasons why Gohan fell to the ground in that state, the injury on his arm, the fact that his power was put into the biggest test while he was at 50% (or just the plot "aww he killed a monster and he felt sleep"), as I say above, Cell might have way too many handicaps himself, he was perfectly fine, at full power and could use both of his arms, he saw an opportunity to secure his victory over Gohan.
I would really like to know your opinion about this: if Vegeta didn't go all tsundere with Cell attacking Trunks-senpai and Gohan wasn't hurt by "Dah Lazuh" or in a hypothetical scenario where is perfectly fine at 100% and then the beam struggle began immediately, who could have won? (In the second case a strong Kamehameha by Gohan lead Cell to become SPC meaning that Goku was still alive, but he won't help his son this time.)
Sayo-chan wrote:
LonelyShadow wrote:Also, I honestly don't know if: Battle damage = Less Ki. But in a panel before the longest struggle began Piccolo state that Gohan's ki was weaker, again, IMO, the reason why this happens, it's because he got severely hurt by "da Lazer."
Why wouldn't battle damage = less ki? He got hurt, he lost ki.
"I don't know if Battle damage = Less Ki" I was saying that because there was a small possibility that Gohan and Cell were fighting both at full power (Gohan 100% - Cell 90%), meaning that Cell was actually at par with Gohan without his angry boost, for example, Gohan said that he was cut to a half of his power because he felt too much pain meaning that he doesn't necessarily needs to be at 50% he just fell like that was the case, also he didn't use too much during the first round, but due to the statements that everyone made it's almost 100% possible that Gohan was indeed weak at the moment. It just sounded weird to me. He didn't get hurt with an attack that drains his energy, it was just "The Amazing, Bright and Powerful Laser" and then, boom! At half of his power.
Sayo-chan wrote:
LonelyShadow wrote:I would really like to know something, how far did the blast go after the struggle was over?
It doesn't. It looks like Cell ate the entirety of the beam. Half of it was his ki being used against him also, so that's something to factor in. I say this because we don't see it shoot anywhere in the manga. Now the anime, the anime shows the beam shoot maybe to where the Moon would be before it dies. Final Flash however, that thing went on and on and on, who knows what it destroyed.
Oh, ok. If it's Vegeta who destroyed a planet I'm with it. He's been destroying planets since his hair was brown-red and have been just a filler character.
Captain Space wrote:New match:
Action Comics #1 Superman* vs. chapter 1 Goku.
(*For those who are gonna leap in and say "Superman OP solos universe", this was way before he got crazy powerful. Not that I'm against Superman winning this match, I just want to make it clear for those who might not know that this is a very different character.)
Meh, could go either way. Reading that Superman comic I see that Superman has almost exactly the same feats as Goku on his first appearance, maybe more durability.
I'll go with Superman, he is already a big boy.
Goku doesn't know the Kamehameha yet and he hasn't been trained by Master Roshi and his martial art skills haven't matured yet.
Also, I can't believe I'm writing this, but... Superman without his cape looks so stupid!
Last edited by LonelyShadow on Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Brock Lesanr puts Mr Satan in the kimura lock and he taps like a bitch
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
The thing is though, I don't see how it makes him look weaker, because he could've (killed him). He was going to. The last panel before he's hit by Vegeta's blast tells us he's finishing Gohan off with one last push. Cell doesn't struggle at all. There's literally nothing to suggest he's struggling or weaker until the moment he dies, which is the result of that extra 15% in conjunction with help. We can ignore Goku here because all that tells us is Gohan's either not attentive or can't see what's going on over there. Gohan, who's struggling, clearly doesn't think a push will do anything. But Vegeta is significant. I just don't see that extra 15%, which could be 10% or any other percent, but 15 seems reasonable, killing him unless he was distracted. It seems completely pointless. Using the immature narrative, as you suggested, it makes everyone immature, especially Goku. The whole "Gohan needs help" screams to me "Gohan's weaker because he's battle damaged". I think he'd struggle a lot at full power against Cell. I find this evidence to be from the fact his initial confidence may not be justified. This is why I put SPC at just below, equal or just above Gohan. The fact Cell says, "I've powered up just like Son Gohan" leads me to believe they're probably equal when he returns to Earth. I think Gohan can strain his limits with rage, a la that extra 15%. But that's a short burst of energy that ultimately may not do anything at all (a one time thing).
LonelyShadow wrote:As for the quote: "O...Oh... Ce... Cell's power has shot up more than I thought...", I don't know if you agree with me, but any character can get hurt by a vastly inferior adversary if they are taken off-guard:
Yeah I agree but, Gohan doesn't say anything suggesting Cell's weaker. He literally says he's stronger than he thought.
LonelyShadow wrote:Of course, just like 60% of the statements presented in Dragon Ball it's a hypothetical case, there could be many reasons why Gohan fell to the ground in that state, the injury on his arm, the fact that his power was put into the biggest test while he was at 50% (or just the plot "aww he killed a monster and he felt sleep"), as I say above, Cell might have way too many handicaps himself, he was perfectly fine, at full power and could use both of his arms, he saw an opportunity to secure his victory over Gohan.
I would really like to know your opinion about this: if Vegeta didn't go all tsundere with Cell attacking Trunks-senpai and Gohan wasn't hurt by "Dah Lazuh" or in a hypothetical scenario where is perfectly fine at 100% and then the beam struggle began immediately, who could have won? (In the second case a strong Kamehameha by Gohan lead Cell to become SPC meaning that Goku was still alive, but he won't help his son this time.)
Why would the fact his arms busted be why he fell down? He was standing fine before. He looks exhausted, I don't see how he couldn't be. If he wasn't exhausted, why wouldn't he just fly? He doesn't seem to be in a monumental amount of pain, he's smiling.
LonelyShadow wrote:I would really like to know your opinion about this: if Vegeta didn't go all tsundere with Cell attacking Trunks-senpai and Gohan wasn't hurt by "Dah Lazuh" or in a hypothetical scenario where is perfectly fine at 100% and then the beam struggle began immediately, who could have won? (In the second case a strong Kamehameha by Gohan lead Cell to become SPC meaning that Goku was still alive, but he won't help his son this time.)
If Vegeta didn't flip his shit, I really doubt there'd be a beam struggle. I think it'd be another fight (I'm drawing a comic about this). Cell says, in the anime at least, "I will suffer you no more!" I don't think it's all that different in the manga, but I can check later. This is pretty much Cell saying he doesn't want to waste time, that he's not dragging it out anymore, he's finishing him off. Basically due to the fact he doesn't see Gohan as a challenge anymore. If there was a beam struggle, and the whole shonen trope of the good guys winning wasn't a thing, Cell may win, he may not. Their powers are likely equal at that point, as far I'm concerned.
DBZAOTA482 wrote:Videl vs. Ronda Rousey (restriction of flight)
She's overrated, by far. Videl took a huge fucking beating, one that most people would be dead from, plus she'd been training extra hard after learning Gohan's got special powers. You put Rousey in a fight with Spopovich and she'd be dead a lot quicker than Videl.
TheGmGoken wrote:Brock Lesnar vs Mr. Satan
Lesnar's got the weight on Satan, but his grappling's pretty shitty. I can see it going either way, but Satan's better conditioned, compare their bodies. Also, if we use Satan's filler feats, his strength is comparable to Lesnar's, if not more so. Hell, Satan survived a blow from Cell, he's got this.
supercat wrote:
1. No matter how many different ways we spin this, I feel a Roshi trained Goku, who's had the opportunity to tangle with Yamcha (seasoned human fighter), Jackie Chun (top-tier human master), Grandpa Gohan (top-tier human master), Nam, Krillin (top-tier human fighter), Tenshinhan (another top-tier fighter), Piccolo, Vegeta, and Freeza has far too much experience under his belt to go down at the hands of someone like (the H-word). I've always been under the impression that (the H-word) sort of muscled his way into victory, after having the luxury of being placed in an easy bracket.
6. Well since Buuhan's mind is primarily fueled by Piccolo's prowess and overall brainpower, I'd say it's still not enough to outshine Beerus, and definitely not Whis. Although in some regards the Namekian may be considered a fighting genius with nearly unrivaled tactical ingenuity, in no shape or form, would he ever be able to give Buu enough wits to defeat a seasoned master like Whis. In the unlikely case Beerus somehow slips up, Whis would step in and top anything and everything the leeching menace dishes out.
7. Yes, I do see some validity behind your points, so let's agree to disagree.
8. Quite frankly, I don't really have an opinion on the whole LSSJ thing. It seems like another over hyped feature that comes in the same package as the over hyped legend himself. Without even delving into the intricate details of canonicity, I find it very unlikely for Broly to be able to amass the power necessitated to rival the top fighters in BoG or FnF.
Golden Freeza would incinerate him in a matter of seconds, and revel over the fact that he's added another name onto the long list of Saiyans he's destroyed.
I. It seems that we have different theories about how Satan got where he got, and also about their skill levels. I don't see it going beyond this.
VI. I don't see how it isn't. Beerus doesn't demonstrate any intelligent qualities, I mean he argues with someone that has the mentality of a five year old and cries when he doesn't get his way. All of his feats are also almost entirely strength based thus far. If it's ki for ki, pound for pound, there's nothing to suggest they could kill him. They'd have to seal him away, but that would require outsmarting him. Maybe, maybe Whis could, but I doubt it.
VIII. I think it's necessary to do some research about Broly before saying anything else.
We'll see about that, once I learn the ways of the Broly, I'll find a way for him to win.
Most Dragon Ball fans are incapable of making a logically sound argument.
ahill1 wrote:Mirai Trunks SSJ(cell games) vs Kamiccolo(cell games)
Trunks, easily. Piccolo won't exactly be a pushover, but Trunks won't have to work hard at all.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
), he received a big Zenkai due the fact that he used a technique that was meant to kill him, before that, he was proven superior to Gohan as a FPSSJ, but I don't think that the Zenkai itself wasn't as big to make him x2 as strong.
