Are BoG and RoF dragging the series downhill?

[jjgp1112]

words about Dragon Ball not being as good as other things and it being objectively bad because of it

At first, I just laughed at the idea of something being "objectively bad" and decided to not go into an argument about it with you. But since you brought it up again, I'm just going to say it simple and plain:

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SOMETHING BEING "OBJECTIVELY BAD"

Yes it can. Mars of destruction is objectively bad, even though some people might enjoy and like it the same you would a bad film - kind of a "so bad, it's funny" thing.

You can like Super, but it's still objectively bad & this encompasses the whole thing - art, animation, character development, writing, choreography, atmosphere, etc. Basically the whole production as a whole is so far low on the totem pole compared to other pieces of work out there. You can blame deadlines, budget, or whatever. Doesn't change it.

Wait, so one bad episode after 4 well-animated episodes completely determines the worth of the show, now, and that anyone who decides not to judge a show by one thing is objectively in the wrong? That's rather funky reasoning.

[VegettoEX]

You can like Super, but it's still objectively bad

I'm not going to stand for this any further from any other member.

No. This is not true and there is nothing you can argue that makes it true. That's not how analysis of art works. You do not get to dismiss an entire argument and an entire set of opinions from a fellow community member because you've arbitrarily decided a set of truths.

This is coming from someone who doesn't even particularly care for Super. You can no more say that Dragon Ball Super is "objectively bad" as you can say that Backstreet Boys are "objectively bad" or that Citizen Kane is "objectively bad" or American Gothic is "objectively bad".

The moderation team will begin issuing strikes against users that continue this "no, that piece of art you're talking about is objectively bad and I therefore disregard everything you're saying" practice.

[VintageSaiyan]

Wait, so one bad episode after 4 well-animated episodes completely determines the worth of the show, now, and that anyone who decides not to judge a show by one thing is objectively in the wrong? That's rather funky reasoning.

I didn't even mention episode 5. You're looking for an argument without even taking into consideration what I wrote, missing the point entirely.

I'm not going to stand for this any further from any other member.

No. This is not true and there is nothing you can argue that makes it true. That's not how analysis of art works. You do not get to dismiss an entire argument and an entire set of opinions from a fellow community member because you've arbitrarily decided a set of truths.

This is coming from someone who doesn't even particularly care for Super. You can no more say that Dragon Ball Super is "objectively bad" as you can say that Backstreet Boys are "objectively bad" or that Citizen Kane is "objectively bad" or American Gothic is "objectively bad".

The moderation team will begin issuing strikes against users that continue this "no, that piece of art you're talking about is objectively bad and I therefore disregard everything you're saying" practice.

Tell me how analysis of art works? I'm speaking in terms of production value compared to other works out there. I think you're confusing art with something else to be honest. You are discounting things like technique, craftsmanship, etc. that play HUGE roles in creating anything that can be called "art". That kind of thinking is destructive to any artform and is a big reason why you see so many wannabe musicians and actors who think they can excel in their respective fields - damaging the reputation and INTEGRITY of the artform in the first place.

You absolutely cannot tell me Citizen Kane is "objectively bad". You just can't. Hell, you don't have to like and niether do I. But I can appreciate the cinematic techniques involved and storytelling. (it's not my favorite film either to be honest, but I can't help but acknowledge it's simplicity and genius in everything that went into making the film- especially since that's my field of work.)

"They Live", one of my favorite movies - is objectively bad. It's downright terrible at times. I understand this but I still enjoy it - I like the message, certain scenes that really had an impact on me, and can laugh at the shoddy production value sometimes. I think Super is like this in many ways - those that really want Dragonball in anyway can appreciate it due to the fact that it's Dragonball and it's new. But for me (especially after having the original to compare it to as well as other Shounen works with similar plotlines/themes), I simply can't bring myself to that place. Super is shoddy craftsmanship on all fronts. End of story.

[Zenkai]

So Dragon Ball is on par with the likes of Rurouni Kenshin and Hunter x Hunter in terms of writing quality?

Yes. It's subjective. If Bob thinks Rurouni Kenshin has better writing, then good for him. If Johnny thinks Dragon Ball has better writing, then good for him. Neither of them are right or wrong.

[Doctor.]

That's such a joke - Dragonball is notorious for shoving anything down their fans throats for a buck. Look at how the video games were milked beyond belief year after year when it was obvious they sucked pretty bad. Not to mention I doubt anybody can watch Super without feeling as if the series is treating them like an idiot. (or 5 years old) DBZ wasn't a masterpiece by any means, but there is a significant dip in quality since Z ended. The new version of Hunter X Hunter looks and feels like if a bit of thought went into it to make it enjoyable for fans and newcomers, something you can't really say about Dragonball. If you compare the production value, it's literally night and day.

I was talking about the manga. A manga like HxH that takes hiatuses regularly (for years), and then gives the fans unsatisfactory and anticlimactic conclusions to its arcs doesn't respect its fans at all. Toriyama spent years working on Dragon Ball with little breaks and continued for FAR longer than he wanted to. Adaptations are still adaptations, and merchandise is still merchandise, all of the companies involved will try to milk their fanbase. What counts is how the author treats his fans.

[Herms]

I think the key point is that it's fine to consider BoG/RoF/Super/etc bad, but treating people who think otherwise as objectively wrong and "lying to themselves" or whatever is crossing the line.

[Xeogran]

I don't understand people saying that Old Movies didn't capture Toriyama's charm or something.

I mean, for me, no new movie will ever surpass Movie 13, or Gaiden for that matter. They had perfect OST, great new characters with plenty of personality.

[VintageSaiyan]

So Dragon Ball is on par with the likes of Rurouni Kenshin and Hunter x Hunter in terms of writing quality?

Yes. It's subjective. If Bob thinks Rurouni Kenshin has better writing, then good for him. If Johnny thinks Dragon Ball has better writing, then good for him. Neither of them are right or wrong.

That's simply not true. By that logic you can hold up the script for the new Fantastic Four movie and tell me you think it's better than the script for Silver Linings Playbook. You might like super hero movies as a genre and therefore enjoy the movie more, but that doesn't change the fact that one is objectively much worse than the other.

Personal tastes and preferences do NOT equal objective analysis.

[Mystic Tien]

words about Dragon Ball not being as good as other things and it being objectively bad because of it

At first, I just laughed at the idea of something being "objectively bad" and decided to not go into an argument about it with you. But since you brought it up again, I'm just going to say it simple and plain:

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SOMETHING BEING "OBJECTIVELY BAD"

Yes it can. Mars of destruction is objectively bad, even though some people might enjoy and like it the same you would a bad film - kind of a "so bad, it's funny" thing.

You can like Super, but it's still objectively bad & this encompasses the whole thing - art, animation, character development, writing, choreography, atmosphere, etc. Basically the whole production as a whole is so far low on the totem pole compared to other pieces of work out there. You can blame deadlines, budget, or whatever. Doesn't change it.

They're both extremely sloppily written but at least Dragon Ball respects its fans.

That's such a joke - Dragonball is notorious for shoving anything down their fans throats for a buck. Look at how the video games were milked beyond belief year after year when it was obvious they sucked pretty bad. Not to mention I doubt anybody can watch Super without feeling as if the series is treating them like an idiot. (or 5 years old) DBZ wasn't a masterpiece by any means, but there is a significant dip in quality since Z ended. The new version of Hunter X Hunter looks and feels like if a bit of thought went into it to make it enjoyable for fans and newcomers, something you can't really say about Dragonball. If you compare the production value, it's literally night and day.

Listen, I fully understand what you mean, and I share the disappointment with you, heck, I got a lot of disappointment with franchises like One Piece, Dragon Ball, Sailor Moon, Sonic, Saint Seiya, etc these years, but you should understand one important thing. There is no way we can do something with it. The times changed now. People are different. Mangakas, animation studios, game companies are not the same they were before. Akira Toriyama has different things in his head now, half of Toei staff (if not more) which worked on Dragon Ball left studio, or doesn't work with it anymore. Another half changed, and either became better, or worse. Sega disbanded most of stuff working on Sonic series for years, the new stuff doesn't have a single idea about what classic Sonic and Adventure series was. And it shows. Toei has consistently shown that it revives franchises for the sole reason of making money. Why such a large franchise as Sailor Moon has returned? To make money. With as little effort as possible. It doesn't make anything particularly engaging, animation suffers, given how low budget was given for it. And heck, it was postponed for two years, and was released bi-weekly until the very end. Yet nothing changed. With Saint Seiya Toei even admitted, that they made a new 3d movie solely for the reason of making money on people who live in Spain and Latin America and are a huge fans of series. One Piece... It is a disaster now. Fights really have a bad animation. Heck, there are barely any fights, and most of them are shown off-screen, this is not speaking of art. It is just popular, so it sells. At this point if you don't like something, there are only two choices you can make. Drop something you don't like anymore or get used to it. Nothing seems to change in the near future, and we can't really do anything with it. Toei is really interested in opinion of Japanese watchers, first of all. And barely anyone of us lives in Japan. Heck, Sega even said some nonsense about understanding how it let down fans during the last years. Yet what we get next week? Right. It announces re-release of Sonic the Hedgehog 2 for 3ds (hence being lazy as usual), and makes some updates for its mobile games. That's all. No announce of some major game. No attempts of making remakes of games, which failed. No attempt of fixing them. Nothing. At this point, even if companies understand that they are doing something wrong, they don't care. So what to say about companies who don't understand this, or better say, don't want to understand it. I am sure that most of japanese kids who watch One Piece and other series from Toei are enjoying it. They don't see the flaws, like we do. Nor they care. And all of it is directed exactly on them. Sadly enough, even grown-up fans of Sailor Moon's manga tend to hype a new adaptation of it, and disregard its flaws solely for the sake of there being a new material with Sailor Moon, which is closer to manga. This is the harsh reality, or at least how I see it.

[Zanza]

I don't understand people saying that Old Movies didn't capture Toriyama's charm or something.

I mean, for me, no new movie will ever surpass Movie 13, or Gaiden for that matter. They had perfect OST, great new characters with plenty of personality.

I'll admit that Toei did seem to get a better grasp of Toriyama's writing with their later films, but the majority of their movies just felt like bland retreads.

[TripleRach]

Tell me how analysis of art works? I'm speaking in terms of production value compared to other works out there. I think you're confusing art with something else to be honest. You are discounting things like technique, craftsmanship, etc. that play HUGE roles in creating anything that can be called "art". That kind of thinking is destructive to any artform and is a big reason why you see so many wannabe musicians and actors who think they can excel in their respective fields - damaging the reputation and INTEGRITY of the artform in the first place.

One thing that is an objective fact is that different people have different tastes. What professional art critics might call bad craftsmanship might seem really interesting to someone else. One man's trash is another man's treasure, and all that. If you can't accept that, we're going to have a problem.

[VintageSaiyan]

Tell me how analysis of art works? I'm speaking in terms of production value compared to other works out there. I think you're confusing art with something else to be honest. You are discounting things like technique, craftsmanship, etc. that play HUGE roles in creating anything that can be called "art". That kind of thinking is destructive to any artform and is a big reason why you see so many wannabe musicians and actors who think they can excel in their respective fields - damaging the reputation and INTEGRITY of the artform in the first place.

One thing that is an objective fact is that different people have different tastes. What professional art critics might call bad craftsmanship might seem really interesting to someone else. One man's trash is another man's treasure, and all that. If you can't accept that, we're going to have a problem.

Then "we have a problem", as you so eloquently put it. I've addressed tastes and I suggest you reread my post. Personal tastes does not free anybody from creating half assed, lazy work. Nothing about subjectivity magically changes how well crafted it is. Craftsmanship is not and never will be subjective, and any artist worth their salt will tell you that.

They Live is a perfect example. The acting was terrible, the dialogue laughably bad, it's budget/shooting schedule had a lot to do with why it looked the way it did. Terrible movie, but as a film I definitely enjoyed it - I loved the message, grasped the "bigger picture" the film was going for, etc. Even though it was poorly excecuted, it's still one of my favorites. My personal taste can overlook it's shoddy production, but I still acknowledge that it was a mess of a production.

I'm also going to say that I'm enjoying this discussion, as I think it's an important one to have.

[VegettoEX]

You have several moderators telling you what is expected of you and what the problem is. Rather than acting indignant about it, if you truly do enjoy having the conversation (as you state at the end), please take a step back and re-evaluate what it is you're looking to accomplish here. We'd rather you stay here; we gain absolutely zero satisfaction by removing members from our community. If you continue to be toxic and actively disregard both the warnings you're receiving and the rules that you agreed to prior to registration, you really won't leave us with much choice.

You've literally just explained back at us how you can like aspects of a product that you simultaneously find fault in, can find and appreciate deeper meaning in it, etc. Let others do that with Dragon Ball Super if they so choose. You do not own their opinions and we will 100% not tolerate you doing that any further. By all means challenge them on those opinions and provide your own take on things. The instant you disregard their opinions outright and essentially insult them in the process, you have crossed the line.

This part of the conversation is over, and the moderation team WILL begin issuing strikes against your account if this continues.

[Zenkai]

They Live is a perfect example. The acting was terrible, the dialogue laughably bad, it's budget/shooting schedule had a lot to do with why it looked the way it did. Terrible movie, but as a film I definitely enjoyed it - I loved the message, grasped the "bigger picture" the film was going for, etc. Even though it was poorly excecuted, it's still one of my favorites. My personal taste can overlook it's shoddy production, but I still acknowledge that it was a mess of a production.

They Live was apparently reviewed pretty well by critics. It has an 83% on Rotten Tomatoes. I've never seen or heard of this film, but critics apparently don't think it's terrible.

[VintageSaiyan]

They Live is a perfect example. The acting was terrible, the dialogue laughably bad, it's budget/shooting schedule had a lot to do with why it looked the way it did. Terrible movie, but as a film I definitely enjoyed it - I loved the message, grasped the "bigger picture" the film was going for, etc. Even though it was poorly excecuted, it's still one of my favorites. My personal taste can overlook it's shoddy production, but I still acknowledge that it was a mess of a production.

They Live was apparently reviewed pretty well by critics. It has an 83% on Rotten Tomatoes. I've never seen or heard of this film, but critics apparently don't think it's terrible.

Carpenter, in any case, doesn`t seem interested in making artistic capital out of that ambiguity; ``They Live`` seems ultimately a loose, funky, happily self-indulgent film, an excuse for the director to restage some scenes that he likes (there`s a comically protracted fistfight out of John Ford`s

``The Searchers,`` as well as nods to George Romero`s ``Living Dead``

films) and practice his technical chops.

The tone keeps shifting radically. It has some silly lines, plot lapses and goofball action scenes.

But you can forgive the movie everything because of the sheer nasty pizazz of its central concept.

..his cheesy sci-fi critique of 1980s' consumerism from the mind of John Carpenter is so bad that it's actually good.

I would really, really suggest watching the movie AND reading the reviews if you're going to quote a source to make a point. It brings me to my point - modern Dragonball doesn't have the substance or "pizazz" that the original did for me to overlook it's shoddy, outright lazy production. It's lifeless. I can't find any deeper meaning in it because, well, there is none. At least none that I can see. So is RoF and BoG dragging the series downhill? My answer is undoubtedly yes.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Seeing how much money Resurrection F made in BO I think everyone can agree the series is going uphill in terms of attention it is getting. Now creatively speaking I also say yes after Majin Buu I think the introduction of Gods and our heros entering the world of the Gods was the best thing they could have done, things are a lot more interesting now especially with the prospect of a brand new universe to explore the only problem I have is that becuase these stories are placed before EoZ there isn't any real tension in the them since we know everything turns out a-ok in the end. Actually I guess it isn't that different to rewatching/rereading the series now since we know how everything that happens and the tension we experienced cannot be reproduced I guess we are just meant to sit back and enjoy the journey towards EoZ!

[RandomGuy96]

BOG was okay-ish and faff was embarrassingly awful (if Toei or just some random fan fiction writer wrote that, they'd be a laughingstock; don't even try to deny it), but they still made ridiculous shitloads of money. So, no.

[Zephyr]

if Toei or just some random fan fiction writer wrote that, they'd be a laughingstock; don't even try to deny it

If Toei or just some random fan fiction writer gave us that depiction of Hell, Shu's wish stealing, literally everything to do with Jaco, police officer Krillin, Goku and Vegeta's bromance, and Goku one-inch-punch-ing Freeza, I'd have to say that they probably wouldn't be a laughingstock.

[the1payday]

In response to the original question, I'll say "yes."

I personally feel like BoG, RoF, as well as Super are just cash grabs. Now of course, the whole series (and all TV series for that point) are technically there to make money as the end result. No money, no product, for any form of media. That being said though, I feel like there is a certain amount of excitement and charm the original Manga (and the anime as a result) had, that is missing from the newest incarnations. I guess to sum it up, I get a "sure, why the hell not" vibe from the new stuff. The original product just seemed to have more passion from Toriyama himself going into it and I feel like there is a lack of it now, and to me at least, it really shows.

[Hellspawn28]

Some fans seem to hate the idea of new gods in the series. I don't get why since we had gods above gods before.