BoG/RoF = Manga Canon - Super = Anime Canon?

[Deathbringer]

I think that since Toriyama went out of his way to re-write parts of the BoG story it's a sign that he's taking DBS to be perhaps the truer version of the story

But was it Toriyama the one that re-wrote BoG & FnF for Super? Other guys get credit for the scripts of each episode, and Toriyama only said that he would write the U6 arc.

...indeed you're right, I just assumed that Toriyama was "heavily involved" since that's what Wikipedia told me he was for BoG and RoF, do we actually know how involved he is with Super?

[Analytical Delusion]

I think that since Toriyama went out of his way to re-write parts of the BoG story it's a sign that he's taking DBS to be perhaps the truer version of the story

But was it Toriyama the one that re-wrote BoG & FnF for Super? Other guys get credit for the scripts of each episode, and Toriyama only said that he would write the U6 arc.

If that's the case then things are very messy. I'm not sure which would take precedence between a "script" and "story" credit but at the very least that makes it seem like AT has a lesser degree of involvement on DB Super.

Just wondering do you have a quote on the U6 Arc? Because if he'll be getting credit for those scripts, then maybe the first two arcs of Super aren't a part of his vision.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I think that since Toriyama went out of his way to re-write parts of the BoG story it's a sign that he's taking DBS to be perhaps the truer version of the story

But was it Toriyama the one that re-wrote BoG & FnF for Super? Other guys get credit for the scripts of each episode, and Toriyama only said that he would write the U6 arc.

...indeed you're right, I just assumed that Toriyama was "heavily involved" since that's what Wikipedia told me he was for BoG and RoF, do we actually know how involved he is with Super?

He does the character designs & writes the original draft scripts of the episodes. The scripts he wrote for BoG & FnF would probably count as "original draft scripts" for the BoG/FnF arcs of Super.

Just wondering do you have a quote on the U6 Arc? Because if he'll be getting credit for those scripts, then maybe the first two arcs of Super aren't a part of his vision.

Here:

“Dragon Ball Super” is a complete continuation of the Majin Buu story arc. It’s got a bit of post-battle aftermath, continues with the “Battle of Gods” arc where the God of Destruction Beerus appears and the “Revival of ‘F'” arc where Freeza comes back to life, and then, I’ve written a strange new story where they finally depart from this universe. They’re fighting against their neighbors, Universe 6! They’ll yell at me if I give away too many spoilers, so I’ll keep the rest a secret, but they’re chasing after giant Super Dragon Balls; I think things will unfold in a bright and simple way, that will be really fun and exciting!

Since it’s another universe, loads of new characters will turn up. I’ll do my best to draw the tons of character designs necessary, so I’m looking forward to this too.

You know, it suddenly occurs to me that somewhere along the line the Dragon Ball anime has become quite a huge story. Since I’m the guy who drew the thing, it’s a bit weird for me to say this, but when I first started out I never dreamed it would have a universe as a setting (laughs). Don’t worry though, it’s still going to be the same sort of easy-to-understand content as always. Please be sure to watch Dragon Ball Super on TV!

[Analytical Delusion]

Just wondering do you have a quote on the U6 Arc? Because if he'll be getting credit for those scripts, then maybe the first two arcs of Super aren't a part of his vision.

Here:

“Dragon Ball Super” is a complete continuation of the Majin Buu story arc. It’s got a bit of post-battle aftermath, continues with the “Battle of Gods” arc where the God of Destruction Beerus appears and the “Revival of ‘F'” arc where Freeza comes back to life, and then, I’ve written a strange new story where they finally depart from this universe. They’re fighting against their neighbors, Universe 6! They’ll yell at me if I give away too many spoilers, so I’ll keep the rest a secret, but they’re chasing after giant Super Dragon Balls; I think things will unfold in a bright and simple way, that will be really fun and exciting!

Since it’s another universe, loads of new characters will turn up. I’ll do my best to draw the tons of character designs necessary, so I’m looking forward to this too.

You know, it suddenly occurs to me that somewhere along the line the Dragon Ball anime has become quite a huge story. Since I’m the guy who drew the thing, it’s a bit weird for me to say this, but when I first started out I never dreamed it would have a universe as a setting (laughs). Don’t worry though, it’s still going to be the same sort of easy-to-understand content as always. Please be sure to watch Dragon Ball Super on TV!

Thanks, seen that before but only gave it a cursory glance. Do you anticipate Toriyama receiving "script" credit for those U6 episodes then?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Thanks, seen that before but only gave it a cursory glance. Do you anticipate Toriyama receiving "script" credit for those U6 episodes then?

Ι doubt it, he isn't going to write the actual scripts. He may get credit for "original draft script" though, like he did in the JSAT.

[Sora Saiyan]

Super might just be what Toriyama had originally intended for BoG to be. It was over 120 minutes when shortened down. So that could work. He still probably adds bits in here and there for Super.
I think we need another comment from Toriyama on the matter, to be certain on his involvement.

[Cetra]

How everyone searches for another excuse again in case they find too much of Super not good.

[Analytical Delusion]

Just did some quick reading. From the DB and DBZ (as well as DBGT and DB Kai) production guides, Toriyama is given the following credit:

原作Original Author
The term gensaku (原作) refers to the “original work”. In every Dragon Ball property this generic credit is given to Akira Toriyama, author of the original manga series for which the franchise is based on. This credit does not indicate that the original author actually had significant involvement with the series’ production, as it is merely acknowledging that the series is based on the original work of the author.

Now, it appears there are individual script writers for every episode. Under the script heading is the 'Series Composition' credit. For DB:

Spoiler:

シリーズ構成Series Composition
The series composer is responsible for determining the overall plot of the series. Many meetings are held with the director, original author, and planning production staff from Toei Animation and Fuji TV to chart the direction and feel they would like the animated adaptation to take. Following this, the composer will draft an overview plot of the series, broken down into episodes. When the overall series plot is finalized, the series composer tasks the scenario writers, which often includes themselves as well, with writing scripts for each episode. As the manga progresses, the series composer oversees the creation of filler stories to ensure that the original author has plenty of time to develop more original material, which will later be incorporated.
小山高生/ Takao KoyamaBrother Noppo
132 – 153
Takao Koyama was the series composer for the entire series, but was merely not credited as such until episode 132.

for DBZ:

Spoiler:

シリーズ構成Series Composition
The series composer is responsible for determining the overall plot of the series. Many meetings are held with the director, original author, and planning production staff from Toei Animation and Fuji TV to chart the direction and feel they would like the animated adaptation to take. Following this, the composer will draft an overview plot of the series, broken down into episodes. When the overall series plot is finalized, the series composer tasks the scenario writers, which often includes themselves as well, with writing scripts for each episode. As the manga progresses, the series composer oversees the creation of filler stories to ensure that the original author has plenty of time to develop more original material, which will later be incorporated.
小山高生/ Takao KoyamaBrother Noppo
1 – 291; SP1 – SP2

for DBGT:

Spoiler:

シリーズ構成Series Composition
The series composer is responsible for determining the overall plot of the series. Many meetings are held with the director, original author, and planning production staff from Toei Animation and Fuji TV to chart the direction and feel they would like the animated adaptation to take. Following this, the composer will draft an overview plot of the series, broken down into episodes. When the overall series plot is finalized, the series composer tasks the scenario writers, which often includes themselves as well, with writing scripts for each episode. As the manga progresses, the series composer oversees the creation of filler stories to ensure that the original author has plenty of time to develop more original material, which will later be incorporated.
松井亜弥/ Aya MatsuiBrother Noppo
1 – 64; SP

and lastly, for DB Kai:

Spoiler:

シリーズ構成協力Series Composition
The series composers are responsible for determining the overall plot of the series, and in the case of Dragon Ball Kai they also worked closely with the producers to establish the overall feel of the series. Many of the major decisions, such as which story elements to remove and retain from the original series, were made by the series composers.
佐渡和隆/ Kazutaka SadoToei Animation
1-98
キャラメル・ママ/ Caramel Mama
1-159
Beginning in the second phase of the series, with episode 99, Caramel Mama became the sole series composer and was merely credited as “Composition” (構成協力).
小原康平/ Kōhei ObaraToei Animation
66-98

So for Super, there is this note:

It is assumed that due to original author Akira Toriyama providing the overall plot of the series, no series composer (シリーズ構成) was required during the series’ planning stages, and thus none is credited.

Of course, for BoG Toriyama was credited as follows:

Spoiler:

原作・ストーリー・キャラクターデザイン
Original Author, Story, & Character Design
鳥山　明
Akira Toriyama

and for RoF:

Spoiler:

原作・脚本・キャラクターデザイン
Original Author, Script, & Character Design
鳥山　明
Akira Toriyama

Throwing in the JSAT special:

Spoiler:

原作
Original Author
鳥山　明
Akira Toriyama

...

原案
Original Draft
鳥山　明
Akira Toriyama

How everyone searches for another excuse again in case they find too much of Super not good.

I do agree that if someone does deem Super not canon because he/she doesn't care for its quality (while not having a problem from the offset), it's problematic. If canon is important to someone, it should be clearly defined (whatever someone's definition is), whether or not like they like the material. Operational definitions and consistency are very important IMO.

That being said, even noting that the definition of canon is subjective, it's definitely not a requirement to care about what is or what isn't canon. Different people are certainly free to appreciate whichever aspects of the franchise they choose.

For me personally, unless in time we learn that the assumption made by the Kanzenshuu staff regarding AT's involvement (given that there is no シリーズ構成/Series Composer) was incorrect, I'm fine replacing my old canon:

Jaco/DBM -> DB Kanzenban (until the last few chapters) -> JSAT Special -> BoG -> RoF -> DB Kanzenban (last few chapters) (+ Toriyama's interviews and his direct statements in guidebooks, etc.)

with:

Jaco/DBM -> DB Kanzenban (until the last few chapters) -> Super -> DB Kanzenban (last few chapters) (+ Toriyama's interviews and his direct statements in guidebooks, etc.)

Hoping that Super turns out to be a fun series since by my definition of canon I'll need to accept it.

[Bullza]

Yeah I'll just add that my post had nothing to do with the quality of the any of the works. It's just a theory.

When Battle of Gods was announced they said it took place between chapter 518 and 519 (?) of the manga, that it was an official part of the series history, Toriyama wrote it and said it was as if he were continuing the manga so would seem part of the manga continuity.

Super is similar but with minor differences and includes anime only characters like Gregory and Mr Satan's trainees and opened with a clip from the DBZ/Kai anime series and looks to be a part of the anime continuity.

They could make the manga and anime a part of different universes as to explain why there's a difference between the two but I doubt they will.

[Lord Beerus]

The canon in Dragon Ball can be whatever you want it to, because there is none.

[ekrolo2]

The canon in Dragon Ball can be whatever you want it to, because there is none.

This now and forever.

[Sora Saiyan]

How everyone searches for another excuse again in case they find too much of Super not good.

Since when has "everyone" been doing that? It doesn't matter if Toriyama is involved or not, people can like or dislike Super for whatever reason they want.

@Analytical Delusion
Great find, Analytical Delusion. You've done some good research there. So by the looks of that Toriyama is involved more than I originally thought.

[Hellspawn28]

Copy & past what I wrote earlier. My idea on DB continuity is:

Manga:

Jaco
DB-
Dragon Ball manga volumes 1-42
2008 Jump Special (maybe)
Super (Toriyama seems to be more involved with Super then he was in GT)
End of DBZ

Anime:

Bardock: Farther of Goku
DB TV series
DBZ TV series
DB Movie 9
DBZ Movie 13
2008 Jump Special

GT:

Bardock: Father of Goku
DB TV series
DBZ TV series
DBZ Movie 5
DBZ Movie 6 (Coola escape out of Hell, so it implied that this movie happen somehow in the timeline if Coola died. Just another GT plot hole)
DBZ Movie 13
GT
Hero's Legacy

DBO:

Bardock: Father of Goku
Dragon Ball manga volumes 1-42
Dragon Ball Online

[Cipher]

You know, I do almost wonder if there was some thought put into lining Super up with Kai, whose timeslot it took over and whose audience it sought to keep. That could explain the inclusion of some minor anime-only elements (a la Gregory) that were kept in Kai and that didn't show up in the film.

So if you wanted to be really strict about putting your media into certain tracks, I think you could pretty comfortably do a:

Dragon Ball > Z > GT

Dragon Ball > Kai > Super

Manga + Battle of Gods/Resurrection F

Kind of thing. Of course that's just a way of having tracks that fit nicely together and doesn't imply that anything has to lead into a certain sequel. None of it really matters.

GT:

Bardock: Father of Goku
DB TV series
DBZ TV series
DBZ Movie 5
DBZ Movie 6 (Coola escape out of Hell, so it implied that this movie happen somehow in the timeline if Coola died. Just another GT plot hole)
DBZ Movie 13
GT
Hero's Legacy

This is getting a little off-topic, but people harping on the Coola cameo like it's some kind of plot hole is a pet peeve of mine. I don't know why we can't just write it off as the harmless Easter egg it is.

If you really need to make it line up, then either some events happened that resemble Movie 5's plot, or you just fit Movie 5 in because it's about as contradictory to the series as Movie 1 is (which is in a strange position due to the Garlic Jr. arc; either you have to handwave some inconsistencies or assume an alternate version of those events happened off-screen). Movie 13 fits comfortably with GT though, and I personally include it since it "introduces" Dragon Fist and Videl as the Great Saiyaman 2, both of which show up in GT.

[Luso Saiyan]

Guys, can we avoid the whole "there's no canon/canon is whatever you want" comments? I think we can all understand the point the OP is making, which is continuity.

[Cipher]

Guys, can we avoid the whole "there's no canon/canon is whatever you want" comments? I think we can all understand the point the OP is making, which is continuity.

Speaking only for myself, I assumed we were talking about continuity, but think that's kind of gone out the window too, as far as anything other than a backwards-oriented approach goes (as in, what background is necessary for what I'm watching/reading). Nothing really has to lead into anything else at this point. There are lots of potential branches. There are tracks that seem to work together better than others though, hence my last post.

But does the true/in-continuity end of Z anime have to be GT? When you're watching Kai, do those characters have to end up living out Super? Not at all.

[ekrolo2]

I'd love it if, just for shits and giggles Toriyama just said everything that's ever come out counts. Father of Goku and Minus? Same continuity, Xenoverse and Kai? Same continuity. Just the sounds of a thousand canon junkies doing a barrel roll alone would be worth the endless shit-storm that would come out of it for years to come.

[rereboy]

There's no official canon because no official source has actually been really clear about what doesn't count and what does for any given continuity. All we can have is "personal canons" and that can be whatever you want based on whatever justification pleases you.

[Luso Saiyan]

Speaking only for myself, I assumed we were talking about continuity,

My comment wasn't directed at you. I just feel like stating the obvious is completely unnecessary when a discussion about what set of content flows better takes place. Dragon Ball (unlike other franchises) has no canon officially defined, but discussions can be had about what fits a certain thing and what doesn't. That's what I took from the thread's OP, which is a completely valid topic.

[wertham]

Here:

“Dragon Ball Super” is a complete continuation of the Majin Buu story arc. It’s got a bit of post-battle aftermath, continues with the “Battle of Gods” arc where the God of Destruction Beerus appears and the “Revival of ‘F'” arc where Freeza comes back to life, and then, I’ve written a strange new story where they finally depart from this universe.

It sound to me that Toriyama is only involved in the 6th Universe story arc and the BOG and ROF retelling are handled only by Toei staff. Maybe he also gave some ideas for the first two episodes, but the BOG arc until now screams "BOG with anime filler" to me.

SUPER 3 - Beerus and Whis talk about SSJG in different settings, but with almost the same dialogue. Meanwhile, Ro Kaioh Shin and Kibitoshin talk A LOT about Beerus, but the only new information given (directly taken from a Q&A) is that Beerus whas the guy who sealed Ro Kaioh Shin in the Z Sword.

SUPER 4 - Pilaf and the gang are searching for a treasure, then the Dragon Balls appear in the Dragon Radar, then disappear, then they escape from a shark, then they're hungry, then they eat. HELLO ANIME FILLER. Bonus: they never explain why they're children again, or even remember Goku when they see Goten.

SUPER 5 - Goku SSJ fights with Beerus. Gregory says something. DERP Goku SSJ 2 fights with Beerus. Gregory says something again. Goku SSJ 3 fights with Beerus. Gregory steals screentime one more time. Beerus wins. Gregory talks again. Hello, I'm ANIME FILLER! You may remember me from Vegetto in regular form vs Buuhan and Goku SSJ 2 vs Kid Buu

SUPER 6 - BOG's party segment without Vegeta dancing or the Pilaf gang trying to steal the Dragon Balls, making them useless for now. Cooking Vegeta is the only thing about this episode that seems Toriyamesque to me.

I seriously doubt this is BOG: Toriyama's Cut, it seems more like "Kai is ending soon, we need to make time for Toriyama to write the U6 arc".

So yes, I see BOG and ROF as "Toriyama canon" and Super as "anime canon".