BoG/RoF = Manga Canon - Super = Anime Canon?

[Bullza]

Would you say the thread title is accurate or not?

The explanation given to the canonicity of the original 13 movies is that they took place in another dimension. However Dead Zone at least appears to take place in the same dimension as the DBZ anime whereas a lot of the others wouldn't fit so would seem not to take place in the same dimension as the anime.

Several of the movie characters did appear in GT so you could say GT took place in this same other dimension also and wasn't anime canon.

The new movies at first appeared to be manga canon as they were said to be part of the official history and Toriyama said he wrote them as if be were continuing the manga.

Now we have Super which is retelling the movies however there are differences and notably Gregory a anime exclusive character is in it. Would it be more accurate to say Super was canon to the anime and the new movies were canon to the manga?

Otherwise what's the in universe explanation for what BoG and RoF are now?

What if in Super at the end of the Goku vs Beerus fight he tells Goku that they are actually in the 5th universe? A universe that heavily mirrors the 7th universe (the manga canon) but with some changes which explains why there's filler and stuff.

Manga canon = Minus, the manga, BoG, RoF

Anime Canon = Bardock movie, the DB and DBZ anime, Deadzone, Yo Son Goku OVA, Super

Other dimension = DB Movies 1-4, DBZ Movies 2-13, GT

[Cipher]

Sure? Whatever? What if the original anime trilogy is its own canon and both Super and the movies are off-shoots of a version we've never seen?

The franchise has exploded past only having one trilogy of anime adaptations and the manga. There's Kai, two versions of events between the new movies and Super, there are multiple future scenarios pushed more than ever before in games, etc. There are nods to the original anime, things that don't work with the anime adaptation or the manga in the strictest terms (the presentation of Freeza in hell, Gregory, etc.). There's odd ancillary material like Episode of Bardock, DB Minus, the Jaco manga, and more.

All that's really worth doing is knowing what events must have proceeded the content you're watching.

GT takes place after the original anime adaptations specifically, by way of using their added elements.

The new movies and Super take place after some version of the manga's events (the manga? the original anime? Kai? doesn't really matter as it mostly uses their shared elements; maybe things like Gregory are a deal-breaker for you; maybe not).

What does the manga lead to? Well, probably not GT, unless you're down with all the added elements (which is fine!). Maybe nothing. Maybe whatever you want.

We have one core story that runs through manga, and now a bunch of adaptations and ancillary material. The way I see it, until an ancillary element is referenced in new material, you're free to pick and choose what background it includes. (Ex. Did the JUMP special "happen"? Does Tarble "exist"? If he shows up in new material, then I guess that particular material needs the special to work. If not, then who cares?)

While I'm often down for the fun of an in-story multiverse to explain different real-world versions, I'm not sure Dragon Ball would benefit from one at this point.

Other dimension = DB Movies 1-4, DBZ Movies 2-13, GT

I do want to point out that these don't make a lick of sense together as a timeline though.

[Hellspawn28]

Gregory appear in the 2008 Jump Special, he could be like how Bardock was where Toriyama likes the character enough to be official in his world. Toriyama did said that he wrote the story for the other universes arc for Super. He has more input into the story then he ever did in GT. It won't make sense to me if the first two sagas in Super are not canon (BOG and ROF sagas) while the rest of the show is since there will likely be flash backs and references to those two sagas in Super later on down the line. We could say BOG and ROF are just movies in their own dimension now.

Several of the movie characters did appear in GT so you could say GT took place in this same other dimension also and wasn't anime canon.

If we go by the infinite timeline theory then GT is it's own timeline where Whis and Beerus never bother meeting Goku and Freeza was never wish back to life. So GT in it's own dimension/timeline is possible too. Coola in GT could mean that Movie 5 & 6 happen or Coola in GT is not the same character we know.

[Bullza]

What if the original anime trilogy is its own canon and both Super and the movies are off-shoots of a version we've never seen?

That's a possibility too and like how Hellspawn said even though Cooler was in GT it could be a different Cooler to the one from the movies and there could be dozens of different canon's. However I'm trying to keep it to a minimum here.

BoG could be manga canon, that would seem to fit. They knew Tarble but the events involving him could have been different from what we saw in the Yo Son Goku OVA. RoF was said to be a direct continuation of that movie so also manga canon.

DBMinus and Jaco could be seen as Manga canon also. Episode of Bardock was a what if story so not apart of any continiuity.

Kai is just an edited version of DBZ, they don't have to be two different canon's and Super began showing clips from the end of Z/Kai so it could follow from that.

Neither the manga canon or the anime canon are going to lead into the events of GT so that looks to be a separate canon. The movies from 2-13 could hypothetically take place in this same canon.

Technically almost every bit of DB material could take place in it's own canon though but I'd at least see a possibility of the manga/BoG/RoF being one canon, the anime/Super being another canon and then GT as being another.

I do want to point out that these don't make a lick of sense together as a timeline though.

I suppose the original DB Movies maybe not but the rest of the Z movies and GT could take place in the same canon couldn't they?

[Cipher]

Neither the manga canon or the anime canon are going to lead into the events of GT so that looks to be a separate canon

There's nothing stopping the original anime from leading up to GT. There's also nothing saying it must (except a next-episode preview), which is why I think a backwards-oriented approach is the easiest. GT needs the original anime for its backstory. Super needs some version of the manga/anime. But previous material doesn't have to lead into either.

I suppose the original DB Movies maybe not but the rest of the Z movies and GT could take place in the same canon couldn't they?

Only the ones that already fit into Z's timeline. GT's backstory is that of the original two anime series. Not only because ... it just obviously is, as it was the sequel series and Z was intended to lead directly into it ... but because it references many events in Dragon Ball and Z explicitly that don't work well with the scenarios shown in the movies (for all the reasons they don't fit into the normal timeline). The only thing it adds to even remotely suggest otherwise is a single still image with a Coola cameo, which for all we know didn't even appear in the script.

[pacz360]

Didn't the latest episode of super use anime kid vegeta design? Plus it seem to me super at least follows dbz Kai at least IMO

[Herms]

The explanation given to the canonicity of the original 13 movies is that they took place in another dimension.

I feel like this has always been an overly literal interpretation of Toriyama's comment on him taking the movies as stories in a separate dimension from the manga. Toriyama follows that statement up by saying that "I’m entirely just an audience member" for the movies, and the interviewer goes on to question Toriyama in detail about his involvement with the movies. In other words, in context the "separate dimension" comment is mostly Toriyama's way of saying the movies are a different kettle of fish from the manga he made, a part of DB where he's an audience member like everyone else rather than the creator. It's not presented as a big explanation about canonicitiy or continuity or anything, and Toriyama's not really talking about literal DB Multiverse-style parallel dimensions, he's just explaining that work-wise he had hardly any involvement with the (original 13) movies.

[eledoremassis02]

The manga version of Super also does not have Gregory. So it's all a bigger mess now lol. Though Super's manga does seems to be taking parts from BOG (Beerus vs Goku)

[Bullza]

The back story for GT could have been almost identical to the back story of Super which could also be almost identical to the back story of Battle of Gods.

Three different timelines that played out almost the exact same but then branched off in different ways following the defeat of Kid Buu.

How the original 13 movies fit into it is another thing. None of them happened in Battle of Gods timeline. Deadzone at least took place in the Super timeline and it's more speculative on which took place in the GT timeline but they all could have happened in this timeline even Deadzone again.

I feel like this has always been an overly literal interpretation of Toriyama's comment on him taking the movies as stories in a separate dimension from the manga.

I get that, I've always seen it as him basically saying "they didn't happen" but I'm not sure if that's how Toei see's it. In Xenoverse they made a comment and I forget what it was which implied that the Broly saga (I think) took place in a different timeline or something from the rest of the sagas so I didn't know if Toei was trying to make it a thing by really having it take place in another timeline (or dimension).

Edit: Found it. There's a scene where they mention Demigra's wormholes as linking different dimensions together. So the Broly and GT events took place in this alternate dimension away from the "official history".

[Galan007]

In terms of canonicity: the original DB manga = DBS =/> BoG/RoF/Yo! > RoF/Super manga ~ original anime.

That's how I view it, at least.

[RandomGuy96]

There is no Dragon Ball canon.

[dbgtFO]

The way I see it:
Dragon Ball manga Universe: DB manga, Yo Son Goku[...] manga, Jaco + DB minus, BoG script by Toriyama & RoF script by Toriyama.
Dragon Ball anime Universe: DB, DBZ(+ tv specials), Yo Son Goku[...], DBZ movies 1,5,9, 13, 14 & 15 & DBGT.
Dragon Ball Universe animated movies: DB movies 1-3, DBZ movies 2-4, 6-8 & 10-12, Path to Power, Plan to eradicate the Saiyans, Plan to eradicate the Super Saiyans & Episode of Bardock.
Dragon Ball Modern Universe: DB, DBK & DBS.

[Analytical Delusion]

For me it comes down to two factors (first being the key most of the time, second acting as a tie-breaker):

(1) Toriyama's level of involvement

(2) Recency of release

As far as I understand, Toriyama's received "original story" credit for the DB and DBZ anime, and has received "story" and "character design" credit for all of BoG, RoF ("draft" as well) and DBS (maybe for the JSAT special too?). I'd think "story" credit suggests that he's actively involved in production, as opposed to "original story" credit which just seems to mean DB/DBZ were Toei's adaptations of Toriyama's source material.

Maybe someone who is more familiar with the production process can explain the terms more clearly. But more or less, this is why I'd say Super is more "canon" to me.

[90sDBZ]

Would you say the thread title is accurate or not?

The explanation given to the canonicity of the original 13 movies is that they took place in another dimension. However Dead Zone at least appears to take place in the same dimension as the DBZ anime whereas a lot of the others wouldn't fit so would seem not to take place in the same dimension as the anime.

Several of the movie characters did appear in GT so you could say GT took place in this same other dimension also and wasn't anime canon.

The new movies at first appeared to be manga canon as they were said to be part of the official history and Toriyama said he wrote them as if be were continuing the manga.

Now we have Super which is retelling the movies however there are differences and notably Gregory a anime exclusive character is in it. Would it be more accurate to say Super was canon to the anime and the new movies were canon to the manga?

Otherwise what's the in universe explanation for what BoG and RoF are now?

What if in Super at the end of the Goku vs Beerus fight he tells Goku that they are actually in the 5th universe? A universe that heavily mirrors the 7th universe (the manga canon) but with some changes which explains why there's filler and stuff.

Manga canon = Minus, the manga, BoG, RoF

Anime Canon = Bardock movie, the DB and DBZ anime, Deadzone, Yo Son Goku OVA, Super

Other dimension = DB Movies 1-4, DBZ Movies 2-13, GT

Dead Zone doesn't fit into the anime though. Krillin somehow already knew Gohan in that movie. And a lot of the movies contradict one another too, so it's safe to say most of them take place in their own universe, separate from one another. As for the Garlic Jr saga, I like to think that something similar to Dead Zone occurred in the Z anime-verse, like maybe Krillin, Bulma and Roshi were absent from the events of it all. The same goes for GT. Something similar to those 13 movies could have happened in the Z/GT anime-verse in a way that allows them all to fit.

[Sora Saiyan]

I see it as Super fitting in with the manga. There are strange choices they're making with it, such as Gregory's involvement, but I just see most of what's going on story wise being Toriyamas original script for BoG which was so long that even when it was shortened it was still 120 minutes. Toriyama could be putting the odd bit extra in here and there alongside the anime staff, but he probably approves of the extra bits, and the changes.
He seems to have a passion for DB which I can't remember him ever having, so I could see him being involved right the way through Super. If I am remembering correctly the only reason Toei ruled out an anime prior to the most recent movies was because Toriyama turned down being a part of it, so I believe he's involved a decent amount in this because of that.

Toriyama has said that when more people work on a story together something better can be made. So maybe that's what's happening with Super?

Long story short, it's in my canon as long as Toriyama is involved quite a lot.

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

It's like VegettoEX said: there is no canon. Make up what you want. Read my sig.

[Deathbringer]

I think that since Toriyama went out of his way to re-write parts of the BoG story it's a sign that he's taking DBS to be perhaps the truer version of the story, I think it comes down to the fact that since he's a manga artist he's used to writing DragonBall on a chapter-by-chapter basis so with Super having an episode-by-episode story it fits in with the manga more to me at least. This is why my idea of what the canon is (Is this my headcanon? gah so confusing ) just the manga (WITH the Kanzenban ending because why not) (also the Jaco manga is canon to me) and Super is the canon Dragon Ball story to me...now of course if we get an episode of Super that has say Garlic Jr or something then yes I will concede defeat and retreat to the loving arms of "just the manga" as being my (head?)canon

I also don't believe in an "anime canon" but if I did then I would place BoG and RoF in that canon for sure, not that Super wouldn't fit as well but to make an "anime canon" you would already have to use a few of the movies (like the dead zone to explain garlic Jr) to fit things in so 2 more movies wont hurt, also the Jump special could fit into this canon since they mentioned Tarble in the BoG movie, and indeed the Jaco manga might still be canon but Bardock special would overtake DB Minus in being anime canon. Of course the history of trunks anime would overtake the Trunks chapter that it's based on. So an anime canon is quite interesting now that I think about it but I would still see the manga canon as the "true" canon.

[Analytical Delusion]

It's like VegettoEX said: there is no canon. Make up what you want. Read my sig.

True, I'd agree that there is no canon. But isn't it likely that there is a certain continuity/vision for the DB universe that AT has in mind?

[FortuneSSJ]

Like any other anime series:

- Manga is always canon. There lies the original story. The Kazenban ending didn't change the plot ending, just added a extra page which made the ending much much better.
But in the end, Goku still leaves with Uub. No change in the plot.

- Anime scenes there aren't in the manga are filler. You can accept them or not. You can accept everything you want, in fact.

- Toei movies are filler.

Bardock, The Father of Goku and History of Trunks OVAs are connected to the plot, so they are canon. In the manga you have a little of Toriyama version of Future Trunks backstory. Accept whatever you prefer. (Just like BOG and Super - BOG arc)

- Anything written by the author, even though wasn't in the manga and since he's the creator, may be canon or canon / filler.
BOG, ROF, Super, Minus.


Talking about Minus.

Even though we didn't had Toriyama version of Goku past, he had know for sure two things about Goku:
- He was sent away as trash to conquer Earth. A planet with weakling beings. Not because Mommy and Daddy wanted to protected him from Freeza.
- Grandpa Gohan found a baby Goku. Not a 3 years old Goku.

Minus is one of those things i refuse to accept, even though was written by Akira Toriyama himself. Not only contradicts what we knew, but also gives us a worse new version.
Comparing a 17 pages chapter to a 48 minutes OVA is not fair though. And if Toriyama decided to flesh out Minus more, I'm sure it would definitely become better. Just like BOG arc in Super is being better than BOG. But i can only talk about what I saw, and I don't like what I saw in Minus.

I hate retcons. I don't like to think something was like that and then someone changes it for something different. And after all these years without nothing, I don't feel like i have to change how things are in my head to fit all the new stuff. Even though its written by Toriyama himself, the creator.

I will see it, I will enjoy it (if its good), I will accept it, but I won't change barely anything from back then to fit everything.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I think that since Toriyama went out of his way to re-write parts of the BoG story it's a sign that he's taking DBS to be perhaps the truer version of the story

But was it Toriyama the one that re-wrote BoG & FnF for Super? Other guys get credit for the scripts of each episode, and Toriyama only said that he would write the U6 arc.