DBZGTKOSDH wrote:RandomGuy96 wrote:Oh, and there's no indication that base Goku was above SS Vegetto in that movie. All that's shown is that he's decently stronger than Freeza and way, way weaker than himself as a SSGSS.
But why would he become weaker than he was in the end of BoG?
Maybe I just have an irrational dislike of power inflation, but is there anything in the entire movie that even hints at him being stronger than Cell? What reason do we have to believe he's stronger than Pure Buu of all people?
I have First Form Freeza above Ultimate Gohan because, if Freeza was weaker than him, I believe that Gohan would curse himself for being weaker than he should be like he did in Boo arc when he couldn't get a rage boost. The fact that he doesn't makes me think that even if he was a SS2, an Enraged SS2, or Ultimate, it wouldn't make a difference against Freeza.
Why wouldn't he be? Assuming he stayed the same requires a lot of assumptions, as well as just ignoring his fights. In BOG, he barely notices a difference when he goes from SSG to base, and can still fight 70% Beerus decently well. In faff, someone shown to be equal to base Goku (Vegeta) was stated to be absolutely incapable of having even the slightest chance against Freeza. Even though Freeza, at the time, was so worn out that he could punch SSGSS Goku in the face, and not hurt him at all. He's only contradicted when Vegeta says that he can transform, too.
There's a rather enormous difference between base Goku and SSGSS Goku, far beyond the difference between BOG's base Goku and SSG Goku.
That is... not really evidence. It didn't matter that he was weaker in the Buu arc, since Vegeta and his dad could still handle things, so obviously he doesn't need to say anything then if all he was concerned about was his ability to protect the Earth. It was a pride thing. Faff Gohan clearly has no pride, and also no dignity or sense of responsibility given that he still doesn't train even after the fourth alien invasion in six years. Moreover this seems like an example "it wasn't stated that he
wasn't as strong as Gohan-Buu, so he must be as strong as Gohan-Buu!". Even the implications given by Freeza going to his 4th form immediately and Roshi asking that question at all seem like stronger evidence...
supercat wrote:RandomGuy96 wrote:supercat wrote:Going straight to his final form doesn't automatically indicate that he's weaker than Buu, as Base Goku was most likely leagues above SSJ Vegetto at this point. His eagerness to jump forms probably has a strong correlation with the fact that he probably wasn't willing to take any chances around the same guy who had a track record of putting him through a whole slew of issues. After the disastrous outcome that resulted from wasting time fighting at a mere fraction of his power on Namek, I'm pretty sure he was far more inclined to proceed with caution.
Just because Gohan lacked confidence in his Super Saiyan abilities, doesn't mean he's suddenly lost all of his power. Though the answers pertaining to this topic seem to vary, my personal placement of FnF Gohan is somewhere in the same realm of power as his Z-Sword self.
Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if First Form Freeza (FnF) could effortlessly annihilate both SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu simultaneously.
If he was being cautious, he would've jumped to full power immediately. He didn't; he clearly was just jumping to the level of power he thought would be appropriate for dealing with an opponent who could defeat Majin Buu. Oh, and there's no indication that base Goku was above SS Vegetto in that movie. All that's shown is that he's decently stronger than Freeza and way, way weaker than himself as a SSGSS.
Maybe I just have an irrational dislike of power inflation, but is there anything in the entire movie that even hints at him being stronger than Cell? What reason do we have to believe he's stronger than Pure Buu of all people?
Almost all of it. He was only worth anything because of his Ultimate power-up. Without it, and seemingly without SS2 either, there's no reason to assume he's even as strong as he was at the very beginning of the Buu arc. Freeza doesn't even need to be stronger than Cell to warrant the whole "he's in a different dimension than us!" comment, and besides him transforming immediately when confronted by Goku, that's really all have to go on for him.
Piccolo and Gohan were acting as if the power they were sensing from Freeza was beyond anything they had ever encountered. Additionally, even Goku himself seemed exceptionally impressed with the tyrant's power right from the get-go; I doubt someone who wields the power of an SSGSS would find a feeble power like Cell's notable or even worth mentioning. Historically, the main villain's weakest form has always exceeded its predecessor's full power by miles, so it seems pretty reasonable to assume that this was another prime example of that.
Believe me, I get pretty darn irritated by the usage of unjustifiable power increases myself. I'm one of the few people who actually don't believe that the kids surpassed Piccolo in the Buu arc, so you're definitely talking to the right person on this whole Freeza matter.
As for Gohan, one could argue that he actually went Super Saiyan 2 when he one-shotted Shisami. Instead of sporting the unkempt look he had as a Super Saiyan, his hair spiked straight up similarly to how it did when he showcased his abilities against Kibito. I know it's been said that SSJ2 would no longer be a thing, but I've always interpreted that as the term being discontinued, while the form itself just gets tossed into the same category as regular Super Saiyan.
Goku is impressed that Freeza powered up so quickly, but he doesn't seem impressed by his power in general. If Freeza was so ridiculously strong that he would have been completely helpless a couple of years ago, I figure his reaction would be more severe. Everyone's shock at his ki tells us nothing; again, they would be surprised he powered up so quickly, and be scared that he's strong enough to kill any of them with Goku and Vegeta gone. On top of that, people have been freaked out by powers that are even weaker than them before. Nothing in either of those scenes really implies he's above Cell.
[Also, by your logic, 1st form Freeza > Beerus]
Except, that's not an unjustified power increase. The kids are stated are shown, several times, throughout several difference sources, to be well above Piccolo. This, on the other hand? What evidence does Freeza have in his favor that's anywhere near as concrete as Trunks landing a punch on Vegeta? Or Goten pressuring Gohan in sparring and making him work up a sweat? Or Gohan choosing Goten as as a sparring partner instead of Piccolo? Or Piccolo stating that the kids are Earth's last hope after Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta seemingly die, before he learns about fusion? Or the kids affecting Super Buu's appearance far more than Piccolo even while not fused? Or Daizenshuu 7 saying that Goten is as strong as Gohan?
You could, but there's really nothing supporting that. Even in Toei Land, we should get some indication of this. Also, even if he was a SS2, that still wouldn't justify putting Freeza on par with even Fat Buu.
Polyphase Avatron wrote:Freeza could just dodge the henka beam... being much faster
It's
Freeza. He'd sit there and let Buu do it.
