Buu in Fukkatsu no F

[Hitiro]

When he said that Vegeta couldn't beat him, Golden Freeza was so weakened that he couldn't hurt a worn out SSGSS Goku with a clean punch to the face. Base Vegeta was fresh. So, effectively, Goku's base form is far below a guy who is far below his SSGSS form, which itself wasn't at full power at the time.

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Freeza had his ass handed to him by Base Goku before he transformed into his Golden form. After transforming from an already beaten up state he was more than powerful enough to give Goku a beat down. Even if the gap between them wasn't large enough for it to be entirely one-sided. I've given how they could still be as strong as Goku was in BoG and still allow for them to be still much too weak to be able to fight against Beerus.

Edit: After reading the other comments I honestly don't see what is wrong with the numbers I provided. Freeza could have easily dropped to around 6 in strength, be stronger than Base Vegeta and still be within the margin of being destroyed by a SSGSS with a SSGSS being around 7.5(25% better than a 6 and falling into the category of being utterly dominated)

[RandomGuy96]

When he said that Vegeta couldn't beat him, Golden Freeza was so weakened that he couldn't hurt a worn out SSGSS Goku with a clean punch to the face. Base Vegeta was fresh. So, effectively, Goku's base form is far below a guy who is far below his SSGSS form, which itself wasn't at full power at the time.

I'm not sure what you are getting at.

It's very, very simple.

An exhausted Golden Freeza laughs at the idea that a fresh base Vegeta can do anything to him.

The same Freeza launches dozens of attacks at SSGSS Vegeta, and isn't able to harm him at all.

Therefore, the difference between SSGSS and base is very big, rather than almost unnoticeable, as the difference between SSG and base was in BOG.

[supercat]

Piccolo and Gohan were acting as if the power they were sensing from Freeza was beyond anything they had ever encountered. Additionally, even Goku himself seemed exceptionally impressed with the tyrant's power right from the get-go; I doubt someone who wields the power of an SSGSS would find a feeble power like Cell's notable or even worth mentioning. Historically, the main villain's weakest form has always exceeded its predecessor's full power by miles, so it seems pretty reasonable to assume that this was another prime example of that.

Believe me, I get pretty darn irritated by the usage of unjustifiable power increases myself. I'm one of the few people who actually don't believe that the kids surpassed Piccolo in the Buu arc, so you're definitely talking to the right person on this whole Freeza matter.

As for Gohan, one could argue that he actually went Super Saiyan 2 when he one-shotted Shisami. Instead of sporting the unkempt look he had as a Super Saiyan, his hair spiked straight up similarly to how it did when he showcased his abilities against Kibito. I know it's been said that SSJ2 would no longer be a thing, but I've always interpreted that as the term being discontinued, while the form itself just gets tossed into the same category as regular Super Saiyan.

Goku is impressed that Freeza powered up so quickly, but he doesn't seem impressed by his power in general. If Freeza was so ridiculously strong that he would have been completely helpless a couple of years ago, I figure his reaction would be more severe. Everyone's shock at his ki tells us nothing; again, they would be surprised he powered up so quickly, and be scared that he's strong enough to kill any of them with Goku and Vegeta gone. On top of that, people have been freaked out by powers that are even weaker than them before. Nothing in either of those scenes really implies he's above Cell.
[Also, by your logic, 1st form Freeza > Beerus]

Except, that's not an unjustified power increase. The kids are stated are shown, several times, throughout several difference sources, to be well above Piccolo. This, on the other hand? What evidence does Freeza have in his favor that's anywhere near as concrete as Trunks landing a punch on Vegeta? Or Goten pressuring Gohan in sparring and making him work up a sweat? Or Gohan choosing Goten as as a sparring partner instead of Piccolo? Or Piccolo stating that the kids are Earth's last hope after Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta seemingly die, before he learns about fusion? Or the kids affecting Super Buu's appearance far more than Piccolo even while not fused? Or Daizenshuu 7 saying that Goten is as strong as Gohan?

You could, but there's really nothing supporting that. Even in Toei Land, we should get some indication of this. Also, even if he was a SS2, that still wouldn't justify putting Freeza on par with even Fat Buu.

In my opinion, it seems a bit far-fetched to believe that Goku was impressed with Frieza's progression, versus the actual level he was at, as that whole scene was likely there to show the audience just how much of a beast the emperor of evil has become. Regardless, even if we go with the notion that Goku was marveling over Frieza's ability to gain power in such a short duration of time, it still wouldn't deduct credibility from the latter's strength, as even Super Buu would be fodder in comparison to someone who comfortably sits a few notches below Beerus at this point.

I don't really consider Beerus as an enemy per se. I see him as an antagonist that more or less fits into his own category of characters, as there has not been a single being that played a role even remotely akin to his. If we look at the three main villains, we get a pretty clear indication that their weakest forms far exceeded the pinnacle of power that their predecessors possessed. Since Buutenks and Buuhan are not entirely Buu, it's fair to count them out of this equation, and assume First Form Frieza > Kid Buu and/or Super Buu.

I honestly do not want to get into another endless debate about Goten and Trunks in the Buu arc, but I've always assumed that Vegeta was simply testing Trunks' power, while only showcasing a small percentage of his own power. It seems a bit unorthodox that he would go full force on a kid who just turned SSJ for the first time in front of him. This same principle seems quite applicable to Goten and Gohan. In addition, the World Martial Arts Tournament was not a major catastrophe that Gohan felt obligated to win, so opting in to train with his brother could be perceived as his desire to teach the the young fighter something about fighting, while spending some quality time together.

I'm not discrediting the kids' power in any shape or form, as I definitely do acknowledge that they were both stunningly powerful.

If Gohan was an SSJ2 in FnF, Frieza would definitely be worlds above Majin Buu (against Majin Vegeta); I highly doubt neither Gohan nor Piccolo would have panicked if the tyrant was merely on par with Buu (against Majin Vegeta). While they still would have outwardly expressed their concerns, they would have ultimately remained confident, as they presumably knew full well that Goku / Vegeta could easily crush any of the Buus at this point. The impression I had was that First Form Frieza was so darn powerful that they weren't even sure if Goku could get the job done.

[Hitiro]

When he said that Vegeta couldn't beat him, Golden Freeza was so weakened that he couldn't hurt a worn out SSGSS Goku with a clean punch to the face. Base Vegeta was fresh. So, effectively, Goku's base form is far below a guy who is far below his SSGSS form, which itself wasn't at full power at the time.

I'm not sure what you are getting at.

It's very, very simple.

An exhausted Golden Freeza laughs at the idea that a fresh base Vegeta can do anything to him.

The same Freeza launches dozens of attacks at SSGSS Vegeta, and isn't able to harm him at all.

Therefore, the difference between SSGSS and base is very big, rather than almost unnoticeable, as the difference between SSG and base was in BOG.

The 25% leeway would allow for this. If Freeza is around a 6 now then SSGSS is still going to be 7.5. Which by the standards of 25% being enough to utterly destroy the opponent is more than enough of a boost for SSGSS. The form may even be closer to an 8 with Fresh Golden Freeza being an actual 8.

[RandomGuy96]

Piccolo and Gohan were acting as if the power they were sensing from Freeza was beyond anything they had ever encountered. Additionally, even Goku himself seemed exceptionally impressed with the tyrant's power right from the get-go; I doubt someone who wields the power of an SSGSS would find a feeble power like Cell's notable or even worth mentioning. Historically, the main villain's weakest form has always exceeded its predecessor's full power by miles, so it seems pretty reasonable to assume that this was another prime example of that.

Believe me, I get pretty darn irritated by the usage of unjustifiable power increases myself. I'm one of the few people who actually don't believe that the kids surpassed Piccolo in the Buu arc, so you're definitely talking to the right person on this whole Freeza matter.

As for Gohan, one could argue that he actually went Super Saiyan 2 when he one-shotted Shisami. Instead of sporting the unkempt look he had as a Super Saiyan, his hair spiked straight up similarly to how it did when he showcased his abilities against Kibito. I know it's been said that SSJ2 would no longer be a thing, but I've always interpreted that as the term being discontinued, while the form itself just gets tossed into the same category as regular Super Saiyan.

Goku is impressed that Freeza powered up so quickly, but he doesn't seem impressed by his power in general. If Freeza was so ridiculously strong that he would have been completely helpless a couple of years ago, I figure his reaction would be more severe. Everyone's shock at his ki tells us nothing; again, they would be surprised he powered up so quickly, and be scared that he's strong enough to kill any of them with Goku and Vegeta gone. On top of that, people have been freaked out by powers that are even weaker than them before. Nothing in either of those scenes really implies he's above Cell.
[Also, by your logic, 1st form Freeza > Beerus]

Except, that's not an unjustified power increase. The kids are stated are shown, several times, throughout several difference sources, to be well above Piccolo. This, on the other hand? What evidence does Freeza have in his favor that's anywhere near as concrete as Trunks landing a punch on Vegeta? Or Goten pressuring Gohan in sparring and making him work up a sweat? Or Gohan choosing Goten as as a sparring partner instead of Piccolo? Or Piccolo stating that the kids are Earth's last hope after Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta seemingly die, before he learns about fusion? Or the kids affecting Super Buu's appearance far more than Piccolo even while not fused? Or Daizenshuu 7 saying that Goten is as strong as Gohan?

You could, but there's really nothing supporting that. Even in Toei Land, we should get some indication of this. Also, even if he was a SS2, that still wouldn't justify putting Freeza on par with even Fat Buu.

In my opinion, it seems a bit far-fetched to believe that Goku was impressed with Freeza's progression, versus the actual level he was at, as that whole scene was likely there to show the audience just how much of a beast the emperor of evil has become. Regardless, even if we go with the notion that Goku was marveling over Freeza's ability to gain power in such a short duration of time, it still wouldn't deduct credibility from the latter's strength, as even Super Buu would be fodder in comparison to someone who comfortably sits a few notches below Beerus at this point.

I don't really consider Beerus as an enemy per se. I see him as an antagonist that more or less fits into his own category of characters, as there has not been a single being that played a role even remotely akin to his. If we look at the three main villains, we get a pretty clear indication that their weakest forms far exceeded the pinnacle of power that their predecessors possessed. Since Buutenks and Buuhan are not entirely Buu, it's fair to count them out of this equation, and assume First Form Freeza > Kid Buu and/or Super Buu.

I honestly do not want to get into another endless debate about Goten and Trunks in the Buu arc, but I've always assumed that Vegeta was simply testing Trunks' power, while only showcasing a small percentage of his own power. It seems a bit unorthodox that he would go full force on a kid who just turned SSJ for the first time in front of him. This same principle seems quite applicable to Goten and Gohan. In addition, the World Martial Arts Tournament was not a major catastrophe that Gohan felt obligated to win, so opting in to train with his brother could be perceived as his desire to teach the the young fighter something about fighting, while spending some quality time together.

I'm not discrediting the kids' power in any shape or form, as I definitely do acknowledge that they were both stunningly powerful.

If Gohan were SSJ2 in FnF, Freeza would definitely be worlds above Majin Buu (against Majin Vegeta); I highly doubt neither Gohan nor Piccolo would panic if the tyrant was merely on par with Buu (against Majin Vegeta). I'm sure they would have outwardly expressed their concerns, but there would have been more confidence behind them, as they likely knew full well that Goku / Vegeta could easily crush any of the Buus at this point.

But he outright says that he's impressed with Freeza's progression. Again, no reason to believe he's SS3-tier or anything similar.

Except Beerus is a villain, who directly opposes the heroes, and who commits genocide for petty reasons. So the idea that a villain's 1st form has to be stronger than the previous villain's final form (which isn't really evidence that 1st form Freeza is so strong, btw) is shown not to be the case. Also, if you're counting any Buu other than Pure Buu, there's really no reason to single Gotenks-Buu or Gohan-Buu out. They're all the result of Buu absorbing someone.

He wasn't going full force per se. He was trying to dodge and block... and failing. Gohan also stated that Goten would make a good sparring partner. So, Vegeta and Gohan sweating and showing effort while somehow also not even trying a little bit, and all the guidebooks lying about the kids' strength, is somehow less far-fetched than Gohan and co being scared of Freeza because he can kill them all, rather than because he's stronger than a villain who isn't around anymore and would be fodder to Godku anyway?

Of course they'd panic, since he's still stronger than any of them even if he's only on par with Cell. They also know that Godku can crush 1st form Freeza, since he manages to defeat Golden Freeza. They're still worried about 1st form Freeza. Oh, and again, Roshi asking if they have a chance and Freeza going into his 4th form immediately both imply he's not as strong as you say. It's not much, but it's better than nothing.

If Freeza is around a 6 now then SSGSS is still going to be 7.5. Which by the standards of 25% being enough to utterly destroy the opponent is more than enough of a boost for SSGSS. The form may even be closer to an 8 with Fresh Golden Freeza being an actual 8.

I have no idea what you trying to say here. How could there possibly still be a tiny gap between base and SSGSS if Freeza in that state literally cannot damage a worn out SSGSS, yet is still way above a fresh base Vegeta? What does this have to do with full power Golden Freeza?

Edit: After reading the other comments I honestly don't see what is wrong with the numbers I provided. Freeza could have easily dropped to around 6 in strength, be stronger than Base Vegeta and still be within the margin of being destroyed by a SSGSS with a SSGSS being around 7.5(25% better than a 6 and falling into the category of being utterly dominated)

25% isn't enough to literally ignore dozens of your enemy's attacks, and base Vegeta was a lot weaker than the exhausted Golden Freeza. AGAIN: SSGSS Vegeta is way stronger than Golden Freeza [exhausted], who is way stronger than base Vegeta. Therefore, SSGSS Vegeta is way stronger than base Vegeta, rather than only slightly stronger, as base Goku was to SSG Goku. Like, seriously, what's so hard to understand about this?

[Hitiro]

I have no idea what you trying to say here. How could there possibly still be a tiny gap between base and SSGSS if Freeza in that state literally cannot damage a worn out SSGSS, yet is still way above a fresh base Vegeta? What does this have to do with full power Golden Freeza?

A 25% difference has been enough for a character to be extremely above another person. The gap isn't really tiny when you compare fights that have literally done no damage to characters within a 25% margin. Vegeta's 30,000 against Recoom's 40,000 for instance? Nappa's 4,000 compared to the Z fighters? Cui's 18,000 compared to Vegeta's 22,000? It doesn't take much to be vastly superior to someone.

[RandomGuy96]

I have no idea what you trying to say here. How could there possibly still be a tiny gap between base and SSGSS if Freeza in that state literally cannot damage a worn out SSGSS, yet is still way above a fresh base Vegeta? What does this have to do with full power Golden Freeza?

A 25% difference has been enough for a character to be extremely above another person. The gap isn't really tiny when you compare fights that have literally done no damage to characters within a 25% margin. Vegeta's 30,000 against Recoom's 40,000 for instance? Nappa's 4,000 compared to the Z fighters and Goku?

Vegeta did damage to Recoome; knocked the wind out of him, put some scuffs and bruises on him, made him bleed, etc. Freeza did nothing to Vegeta and Goku, despite actually landing more hits than Vegeta did on Recoome.

Cui's 18,000 compared to Vegeta's 22,000? It doesn't take much to be vastly superior to someone.

Vegeta was 24,000, and he never tanked Cui's blows.

You still aren't explaining how SSGSS is not way, way stronger than base.

[Hitiro]

I have no idea what you trying to say here. How could there possibly still be a tiny gap between base and SSGSS if Freeza in that state literally cannot damage a worn out SSGSS, yet is still way above a fresh base Vegeta? What does this have to do with full power Golden Freeza?

A 25% difference has been enough for a character to be extremely above another person. The gap isn't really tiny when you compare fights that have literally done no damage to characters within a 25% margin. Vegeta's 30,000 against Recoom's 40,000 for instance? Nappa's 4,000 compared to the Z fighters and Goku?

Vegeta did damage to Recoome; knocked the wound out of him, put some scuffs and bruises on him, made him bleed, etc. Freeza did nothing to Vegeta and Goku, despite actually landing more hits than Vegeta did on Recoome.

Vegeta never got Recoom to bleed from what I recall. It was all scuffs. Those scuffs were passed off as dirt the last time a battle like that happened. Which was Nappa vs the Z fighters.

Vegeta was 24,000, and he never tanked Cui's blows.

My bad but it was still a vast difference despite the gap being so small. Had Vegeta took a punch he more than likely wouldn't have received any damage.

You still aren't explaining how SSGSS is not way, way stronger than base.

Why does it need to be exactly? If you're going to to make SSGSS vastly stronger than base then Golden form for Freeza must be even more vast as Base Goku was destroying 4th Form Freeza already.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No, it contradicts BOG. Well, actually it doesn't, since nothing is stated about him staying that specific level of power. BOG depicted a tiny difference between SSG and base, while faff depicts a very large one.

The tiny gap in BoG is between base & SSG, while the large one in FnF is between base & SSGSS. This isn't a contradiction. It doesn't have to be over x2 to be a large boost, since SSG2 & SSG3 both give large boosts, yet they both give a less than x2 boost.

Freeza did wear a scouter regularly, on Namek.

Nope, he didn't wear it regularly. He only wore one when the Ginyu Tokusentai brought new ones, and he went to personally hunt the last Namekians. Before that, we never saw him wearing a scouter, except for some filler flashbacks.

The only bit of evidence that might possibly suggest less than a multi-fold difference is Vegeta deflecting that blast... but that doesn't really mean anything, since this is a series where Ten can deflect a blast from Buutenks.

Boo's blast wasn't described as a full-power blast. The script states that Freeza fired a full-power blast.

Faff Gohan simply has no dignity; if he didn't have an issue with somehow losing his Ultimate power-up in a year (in blatant contradiction to the manga, again, but whatever), he obviously doesn't care about remaining strong and protecting his family.

"Faff Gohan" is no different that the Gohan we see in the manga. He didn't train for 7 years when he became the strongest, and he didn't train for 10 years when he again became the strongest. And with Goku & Vegeta becoming Gods, he had one more reason not to train even after losing his power.

Also, Gohan losing Ultimate isn't a contradiction to the manga. There is a 5-year gap between FnF & the 28th TB arc, and we have no idea about what happens in that gap.

While it's not 100% impossible for Freeza to be that strong, there's simply no reason for it, and a few reasons to think otherwise.

I'm not saying that Freeza is definitely at that level, but there is a reason to think that, IMO. If you disagree... I guess we can just agree that we disagree on that.

[Hugo Boss]

I always thought it was weird Base Goku standing up to Beerus or Whis, like those films are hiding Super Saiyan for the sake of suspense. Granted, it supports either side of interpretation, but I think it's better to assume there is a consistent gap between regular state and Super Saiyan. I would like to see how the script describes those acenes where the Base Saiyans do that impressive stuff. (Well, I just forgot we were supposed to talk about Boo. Maybe another time.)

[Helios518]

On Namek, Goku was underwater and Frieza couldn't get a shot on Goku that's when Goku found out he couldn't sense ki . In RoF, Frieza was shooting many ki blasts from underwater while there was smoke over it and the shots were dead on Goku.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

He knew he was right above him, so knowing that would be enough for him to use guided Chi-blasts in that vicinity. If he learned how to feel Chi, I'd like to think the movie would let us know he somehow acquired this ability.

During the Freeza saga, Freeza was expecting Goku to fly towards him out of the water and was constantly taken off-guard by those random Kamehameha's he launched at him. I don't think the situations are comparable.

[RandomGuy96]

No, it contradicts BOG. Well, actually it doesn't, since nothing is stated about him staying that specific level of power. BOG depicted a tiny difference between SSG and base, while faff depicts a very large one.

The tiny gap in BoG is between base & SSG, while the large one in FnF is between base & SSGSS. This isn't a contradiction. It doesn't have to be over x2 to be a large boost, since SSG2 & SSG3 both give large boosts, yet they both give a less than x2 boost.

Freeza did wear a scouter regularly, on Namek.

Nope, he didn't wear it regularly. He only wore one when the Ginyu Tokusentai brought new ones, and he went to personally hunt the last Namekians. Before that, we never saw him wearing a scouter, except for some filler flashbacks.

The only bit of evidence that might possibly suggest less than a multi-fold difference is Vegeta deflecting that blast... but that doesn't really mean anything, since this is a series where Ten can deflect a blast from Buutenks.

Boo's blast wasn't described as a full-power blast. The script states that Freeza fired a full-power blast.

Faff Gohan simply has no dignity; if he didn't have an issue with somehow losing his Ultimate power-up in a year (in blatant contradiction to the manga, again, but whatever), he obviously doesn't care about remaining strong and protecting his family.

"Faff Gohan" is no different that the Gohan we see in the manga. He didn't train for 7 years when he became the strongest, and he didn't train for 10 years when he again became the strongest. And with Goku & Vegeta becoming Gods, he had one more reason not to train even after losing his power.

Also, Gohan losing Ultimate isn't a contradiction to the manga. There is a 5-year gap between FnF & the 28th TB arc, and we have no idea about what happens in that gap.

While it's not 100% impossible for Freeza to be that strong, there's simply no reason for it, and a few reasons to think otherwise.

I'm not saying that Freeza is definitely at that level, but there is a reason to think that, IMO. If you disagree... I guess we can just agree that we disagree on that.

Yes it is, because SSGSS is stated to be identical in power to SSG. The difference is clearly enormous, as a fresh base saiyan is absolutely nothing compared to someone whose attacks he can outright ignore as a SSGSS.

He wore one when he felt it would help, then. Why wouldn't he wear any of the new and improved ones now? Everyone else did.

One, where does it state that? Two, there are minor differences between the script and the movie, which clearly doesn't present it as a full power blast. Three, what evidence do you have that Buu's attack wasn't "a full power blast"?

Yes he is. He has a totally different personality; manga Gohan still did some training even when he had no reason to (it's simply stated that he didn't do any serious training), he was shown to enjoy friendly fighting, and always wanted to be strong enough to protect his friends. Faff Gohan doesn't care, and somehow manages to his Ultimate power-up just in time to face the fourth alien invasion in five years. You're contradicting yourself.
-"See, Gohan didn't train during that ten year gap. That proves Faff Gohan and Manga Gohan are the same."
--"So why does he still have his Ultimate power-up at the EOZ, and not in faff?"
-"You have no idea what happened! He probably trained in that ten year gap"
Anyway, it's irrelevant, since NuGohan is plainly shown not to care about staying strong enough to protect his family, to the point where he didn't even do the SSG ritual, or even do a single bit of training after three alien invasions in a row. So him not criticizing himself again isn't really evidence. Speaking of which, why would Roshi even ask if SS Gohan has a chance if everyone can plainly sense that he's as strong as Gotenks-Buu or something?

Fair enough.

Vegeta never got Recoom to bleed from what I recall. It was all scuffs. Those scuffs were passed off as dirt the last time a battle like that happened. Which was Nappa vs the Z fighters.

My bad but it was still a vast difference despite the gap being so small. Had Vegeta took a punch he more than likely wouldn't have received any damage.

Why does it need to be exactly? If you're going to to make SSGSS vastly stronger than base then Golden form for Freeza must be even more vast as Base Goku was destroying 4th Form Freeza already.

He did. He's clearly scratched up and bleeding out of his moth, and I think he's got a cut on his head. He also gets the wind knocked out of him, gets knocked down/stunned, etc. He was clearly being affected by Vegeta's blows. Realistically, anyone who looked like Recoome did by the time he beat everyone would probably be in for a trip to the emergency room.

There's no reason to believe that, when Recoome took damage at a similar gap, and even Nappa was stung by a ~2,800 blast, i.e. 70% of his own power. There is also, of course, Freeza hurting Goku a bit whenever he hit him, at a 25% gap.

Uh, okay? I wasn't saying that gap between Golden Freeza and 4th form Freeza wasn't vast. As indicated by the Vegeta-Freeza scene, it clearly is.

[Helios518]

He knew he was right above him, so knowing that would be enough for him to use guided Chi-blasts in that vicinity. If he learned how to feel Chi, I'd like to think the movie would let us know he somehow acquired this ability.

During the Freeza saga, Freeza was expecting Goku to fly towards him out of the water and was constantly taken off-guard by those random Kamehameha's he launched at him. I don't think the situations are comparable.

And Goku was right below Frieza on Namek, So why didn't he shoot guided Ki blasts? There's no way if Frieza can't see through water that he could see through water and smoke. You can't lock on without seeing or sensing someone, which in Rof Frieza case he couldn't see him so he had to sense him.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Freeza didn't want to attack him in the water. He knew Goku was going to come up eventually, so he wanted to attack him when he did. That's why he didn't bother throwing any Chi-blasts into the water.

That's much different than launching a bunch of Chi-blasts directly in the air. Freeza also wondered why Goku was fighting him without transforming into Super Saiyan. Had he actually been able to sense Chi, he would've realized Goku was already out of his league the second he powered-up. Or capable of fighting him without Super Saiyan at the very least.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Yes it is, because SSGSS is stated to be identical in power to SSG.

No, it isn't.

He wore one when he felt it would help, then. Why wouldn't he wear any of the new and improved ones now? Everyone else did.

Everyone else wore them on Namek, yet he didn't, until Ginyu brought new ones.

One, where does it state that? Two, there are minor differences between the script and the movie, which clearly doesn't present it as a full power blast. Three, what evidence do you have that Buu's attack wasn't "a full power blast"?

Spoiler:

Vegeta: “Hey Kuririn, feed Kakarot a Senzu.”
Kuririn: “O-OK.”
Freeza: “I won’t allow it!!”

Freeza fires a powerful energy blast! But Vegeta knocks it back!

Sorbet: “Gyaaaah…!!”

The deflected blast annihilates Sorbet. Freeza’s astonished that his full-power energy blast was deflected.

Kuririn hurries to feed Goku a Senzu.

The scene is described exactly as it happened in the movie, so there is no reason to ignore it.

As for Boo, nothing states that this was a full-power blast, and we have no reason to assume it was, since Boo wasn't angry like Freeza was, and he was trying to kill Dende, a non-fighter.

Yes he is. He has a totally different personality; manga Gohan still did some training even when he had no reason to (it's simply stated that he didn't do any serious training), he was shown to enjoy friendly fighting, and always wanted to be strong enough to protect his friends. Faff Gohan doesn't care, and somehow manages to his Ultimate power-up just in time to face the fourth alien invasion in five years. You're contradicting yourself.
-"See, Gohan didn't train during that ten year gap. That proves Faff Gohan and Manga Gohan are the same."
--"So why does he still have his Ultimate power-up at the EOZ, and not in faff?"
-"You have no idea what happened! He probably trained in that ten year gap"
Anyway, it's irrelevant, since NuGohan is plainly shown not to care about staying strong enough to protect his family, to the point where he didn't even do the SSG ritual, or even do a single bit of training after three alien invasions in a row. So him not criticizing himself again isn't really evidence.

At that point, Gohan should be too busy to train since he is trying to become a scholar, and he has a baby to raise. No one ever trained in DB solely just in case someone strong would appear later.

As for Ultimate in the 28th TB, maybe he did some training. Maybe he went to Rou Kaioshin again. Maybe he gets it back during a fight in the U6 arc. Like I said, we have no idea what happened.

Also, what are the three alien invasions you are talking about?

Speaking of which, why would Roshi even ask if SS Gohan has a chance if everyone can plainly sense that he's as strong as Gotenks-Buu or something?

Maybe in case Gohan has something up to his sleeve, like SS2 or Ultimate? Gohan is weaker than he should have been after all.

[Helios518]

Freeza didn't want to attack him in the water. He knew Goku was going to come up eventually, so he wanted to attack him when he did. That's why he didn't bother throwing any Chi-blasts into the water.

That's much different than launching a bunch of Chi-blasts directly in the air. Freeza also wondered why Goku was fighting him without transforming into Super Saiyan. Had he actually been able to sense Chi, he would've realized Goku was already out of his league the second he powered-up. Or capable of fighting him without Super Saiyan at the very least.

That still doesn't answer the other part of my reply, How can you shoot something guided without seeing or sensing someone? Frieza was most likely expecting the fight to start at both of them at full power even Cell and Buu went head first against SSJ2 Gohan and SSJ Vegetto despite the huge difference in power. Frieza even knew Goku was holding something back.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

That still doesn't answer the other part of my reply, How can you shoot something guided without seeing or sensing someone?

Freeza could control a kienzan during the namek era, so it wouldn't be too much of a surprise if he could use a guided Chi-blast towards a certain vicinity. Or perhaps he saw the explosion from inside the water and assumed Goku would be directly above it? All these yrs later, Freeza isn't even smart enough to realize the importance of stamina and how it affects his power. It's like he forgot what happened the last time he took his power to its limits. Why? Because Freeza was more focused on raw power than anything else. This is exactly why Vegeta said guys like Dodoria and Freeza would never be able to learn the ability to sense Chi.

Freeza was most likely expecting the fight to start at both of them at full power

Of course, But Freeza knew Super Saiyan was drastically different compared to their Base forms. From the way he talks to Goku, it doesn't seem like he's aware of his current power. There's also the fact that Goku might not have detectable Chi because of his God power.

Cell and Buu went head first against SSJ2 Gohan and SSJ Vegetto despite the huge difference in power.

Cell actually went to full-power (somehow taking everyone's attention off of Gohan) to combat Gohan. My guess is Gohan was at a level where Cell thought he had a chance. Boo? Yeah, he didn't give a damn.

Freeza even knew Goku was holding something back.

Maybe because Goku wasn't fighting as hard as Freeza was. He was dominating Freeza without much trouble. Freeza was able to tell that Goku was holding-back on namek, too. Even #18 could tell Vegeta wasn't fighting at his best during their battle. I think that's just something they pick up on once they fight their opponent for a bit.

[Helios518]

Of course, But Freeza knew Super Saiyan was drastically different compared to their Base forms. From the way he talks to Goku, it doesn't seem like he's aware of his current power. There's also the fact that Goku might not have detectable Chi because of his God power.

You definitely got me here. If Goku's base has God Ki (Most likely) then Frieza's vision game went up due to him guiding his Ki blasts perfectly.

[BrolyLSSJ]

1. No but if he does absorb him Buu would be maybe 40x stronger than Golden Frieza+his Original form.
2. I mean Buu if he was put into piece than yes.