Why is everyone so set on Goku being hugely strong in GT?

[Darkprince410]

Base Goku was stronger than SS Gohan, who, going by the GT Perfect Files, is even stronger than his Ultimate self from Z.

Do you have that quote handy?

I'm sorry, I'm on my phone.

Just google "GT Perfect Files Herms", then command+f "Son Gohan"

It should be noted though that the Daizenshuu says that Gohan, Goten, and Trunks all slacked off with their training, so you have ten years of him getting weaker vs. 5 years of maybe getting stronger.

[Friezacooler]

Because GT frieza and Cell > kid Buu.

[supercat]

With sporadic power increases thrown in multiple directions, it's potentially impossible to accurately decipher specific power levels and/or establish a power scale that doesn't elicit questions pertaining to its validity.

That said, we do have a few subtle clues that somewhat point us in the right direction.

-SSJ4 Goku was more or less stated to be on par with SSJ Vegetto.

Hypothetically speaking, this shows that anyone before the debut of Goku's strongest transformation in GT was at least a notch or two below SSJ Vegetto. Taking that into consideration, it's almost safe to say that the incarnation of Buu that was being compared to Rild was Kid Buu, as Base Goku being Buuhan-tier would likely mean that SSJ4 was worlds above SSJ Vegetto.

The whole thing about Gohan training could really go either way in my opinion. Just because he didn't neglect his training, does not automatically make him worlds stronger than he was in Z. With the responsibilities of work, and the day to day duties of being a father / husband, it's quite likely that his regimen was more geared towards keeping in shape and/or maintaining what he had in Z. Another plausible theory is that, he lost a chunk of power between the defeat of Buu and EoZ, and he trained just enough to retain what he had during the World Martial Arts Tournament. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was simply indicated that Gohan had not neglected his training, rather than literally confirming that he got stronger right?

One last thing that I sort of factor in when trying to make sense of GT power levels is how Piccolo presumably ran a place that serves as a home to Buu-tier fighters. Some argue that the Namekian had no such role, but I beg to differ. When Piccolo is confronted by Nappa and his Red Ribbon pals shortly after Goku leaves for Earth, he indicates that he will not permit them to mess around, or something along those lines (exact translation would be helpful). While the immediate assumption here would be that this statement only pertained to the weaklings that were actually present during the scene, I feel there's no reason to believe that their stronger allies (Rild, Cell, and Frieza) wouldn't jump in. As a matter of fact, there was a scene when the villains were standing in line to be seen by Yemma, and Rild was seen standing behind Nappa and in front of Blue. This to me is a pretty decent indicator that once the fight went down, the machine mutant was among the many who were subjected to humility.

[Tectorman]

Not quite.

1) Goku states that General Rildo's ki is greater than Buu's, and fights him evenly.

2) Goku revs up to SSJ.

3) General Rildo becomes Metal Rildo and Goku notes that Metal Rildo is "a little bit stronger than he expected" (what he expected = greater than Buu).

What?

Hyper Mega Rild is stronger than Goku expected (is that in the sub?), that doesn't change the Base Rild (and by extension, Base Goku) is above Boo.

If someone senses Base Goku, comments he's stronger than Boo, then they're shocked at Goku's power in SS, would that change that Base Goku's above Boo?

All it means in Goku's surprised at how much power General Rild got from transforming into Hyper Mega Rild, not that Rild's 1st form is below Boo.

The dub has the line "Wow, that's much more than I expected", which would allow General Rildo/Base Goku to be above Buu and Metal Rildo/SSJ Goku to be 50x Buu (because I can certainly buy "much more than" equating to "50x"). Going by the dub, I would agree with you.

The subtitles have the line "You're a little bit stronger than I expected." Goku's previous statement describing "what he was expecting" was "greater than Buu's", making Metal Rildo stronger, but not drastically so, than General Rildo. Unless you think "a little bit stronger" equates to "50x" (I don't). This has the added benefit of also giving Goku a reason to have caught on to Rildo's control over the planet's metal (he sensed Rildo's energy far surpassing his actual capabilities, which would lead to Goku wondering where that energy was, if not in Rildo).

[Sayo-chan]

Because GT Freeza and Cell > kid Buu.

Where are you getting that from?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

The dub has the line "Wow, that's much more than I expected", which would allow General Rildo/Base Goku to be above Buu and Metal Rildo/SSJ Goku to be 50x Buu (because I can certainly buy "much more than" equating to "50x"). Going by the dub, I would agree with you.

The subtitles have the line "You're a little bit stronger than I expected." Goku's previous statement describing "what he was expecting" was "greater than Buu's", making Metal Rildo stronger, but not drastically so, than General Rildo. Unless you think "a little bit stronger" equates to "50x" (I don't). This has the added benefit of also giving Goku a reason to have caught on to Rildo's control over the planet's metal (he sensed Rildo's energy far surpassing his actual capabilities, which would lead to Goku wondering where that energy was, if not in Rildo).

Goku did not say he was expecting General Rild to be stronger than Boo, he literally says Base Rild is stronger than Boo, no expectations here.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was simply indicated that Gohan had not neglected his training, rather than literally confirming that he got stronger right?

Yes, but it's absolutely ridiculous for the writers to go out of their way to mention Gohan trained, if they wanted us to think he got weaker, right?

It should be noted though that the Daizenshuu says that Gohan, Goten, and Trunks all slacked off with their training, so you have ten years of him getting weaker vs. 5 years of maybe getting stronger.

Sounds like another excuse to nerf Gohan in GT and to avoid over powered characters. The tidbit is clearly pointless and misleading if Gohan is weaker than his Z self.

Writer 1: "Let's show everyone Gohan got much weaker from Z, like much weaker!"
Writer 2: "But how?! A logical way like having someone comment on his power loss, or have him losing his Ultimate-exclusive traits?"
Writer 1: "Naw. We'll say he trained!! And have him keep his Ultimate-exclusive traits!!"
Writer 2: " Genius!!!"

[Hugo Boss]

The subtitles have the line "You're a little bit stronger than I expected." Goku's previous statement describing "what he was expecting" was "greater than Buu's", making Metal Rildo stronger, but not drastically so, than General Rildo. Unless you think "a little bit stronger" equates to "50x" (I don't). This has the added benefit of also giving Goku a reason to have caught on to Rildo's control over the planet's metal (he sensed Rildo's energy far surpassing his actual capabilities, which would lead to Goku wondering where that energy was, if not in Rildo).

Goku says it before or after fighting Metal Rildo? Because, after fighting makes more sense since, then, Goku will really know how powerful Rildo is.

[Friezacooler]

Because GT Freeza and Cell > kid Buu.

Where are you getting that from?

they followed the Battle with kid Buu while they were in HFIL in anime, in GT they claimed they are stronger then the last time they met Goku. and Cell can sense ki.

[Hitiro]

they followed the Battle with kid Buu while they were in HFIL in anime, in GT they claimed they are stronger then the last time they met Goku. and Cell can sense ki.

All that tells us is that:

A) They think together they can win. Whis says Goku and Vegeta, if they worked together, could possibly beat Beerus. That doesn't mean that they are stronger than him. So likewise the two fighters don't have to be stronger than Pure Boo at all.

B) They have no clue how strong he has become since his fight with Pure Boo. If Cell could sense Goku's current power then Cell would already know they stood no chance. Goku took them both apart without transforming and Cell knows that the Saiyan's get much much stronger as SSJ's. His confidence in beating Goku is really unfounded in a way because if they honestly thought they could beat Goku then why didn't they at least make him go SSJ3? They had to have believed their strength was on par with his SSJ3 power. But based on Goku's current base power that SSJ3 power is extremely out of their respective levels.

[Cipher]

So much seems to revolve around that Rilld line.

Is everyone okay for the weird shit Goku being that strong causes with Trunks, Pan and other characters? Again, I just don't see anything on-screen indicating that he's that far above them (outside of his higher Super Saiyan forms, obviously).

The first few times I watched the series, I was always more willing to explain away that one line rather than re-jig everything else that happens. Freeza and Cell are the other majorly odd thing, but ... they're dead. Easy out for what could be a basic inconsistency.

they followed the Battle with kid Buu while they were in HFIL in anime, in GT they claimed they are stronger then the last time they met Goku. and Cell can sense ki.

That is some crazy-ass shit and would also mean that GT Yamcha is nearly at Paikuhan's level.

But a lot of this stuff feels like trying to rewrite basic understanding of the series to accommodate the Yamcha-Olibu filler to me. Like, "Oh! Goku fought Freeza and Cell in base-form? He vaguely compared someone he loses to some form of Boo?" Why are those not the elements that need to be explained or handwaved, rather than fitting the rest of the series to them?

[Doctor.]

So much seems to revolve around that Rilld line.

Is everyone okay for the weird shit Goku being that strong causes with Trunks, Pan and other characters? Again, I just don't see anything on-screen indicating that he's that far above them (outside of his higher Super Saiyan forms, obviously).

The first few times I watched the series, I was always more willing to explain away that one line rather than re-jig everything else that happens. Freeza and Cell are the other majorly odd thing, but ... they're dead. Easy out for what could be a basic inconsistency.

It's not just Freeza, Cell and Rild. You also have Goku fighting Super Saiyan Goten and Gohan alone, and defeating them, and they're certainly much, much stronger than Freeza. There's a bunch of things that point towards him being so strong. Ignoring it is the same as me saying Daimao was stronger than God, when he have proof that this isn't the case. Pan and Trunks are either ridiculously weak or ridiculously strong too, pick one, GT never really cared about consistency.

[Cipher]

It's not just Freeza, Cell and Rild. You also have Goku fighting Super Saiyan Goten and Gohan alone, and defeating them, and they're certainly much, much stronger than Freeza.

You know, I just rewatched this. There's actually a lot more to the Gohan/Goten skirmish than I remembered, including them both being in Super Saiyan.

So, fine, fine. I think "proof" is still a bit much based on the way things are presented, but I'm basically losing here if we go strictly by evidence.

It's so weird I'm still not going to watch it that way, and I think it plays out fine with a weaker Goku, but there is enough to convince me that maybe that's what Toei was going for, as strange as it is.

[Herms]

I've always felt like GT works the same way as the Legacy of Goku games, where Super Saiyan transformations make characters a bit stronger, but nothing dramatic like what we see in the Freeza arc or anything. So everything works on the assumption that if Goku is stronger than a character, all his forms will be stronger than all their forms, since the overall difference between forms is teensy tiny. The only exception is Super Saiyan 4, since that's the new hotness. Heck, even then Super 17 gives SS4 Goku a run for his money, yet still gets beaten by regular Goku's Dragon Fist. That's the sort of thing that happens all the time when you play the LoG games.

[Cipher]

Heck, even then Super 17 gives SS4 Goku a run for his money, yet still gets beaten by regular Goku's Dragon Fist.

I know a lot of people take issue with this, but every time Dragon Fist comes out, it ends up killing or heavily damaging an opponent who by all rights should be much stronger than Goku. I've always viewed that as one of the quirks of the attack. There must be some other drawback like ... maybe it's slow? He does have to distract Hirudegarn, Super 17 and Yi Xing-Long in various ways first.

Except against San Xing-Long, I guess, where it's just overkill.

[Tectorman]

So much seems to revolve around that Rilld line.

Is everyone okay for the weird shit Goku being that strong causes with Trunks, Pan and other characters? Again, I just don't see anything on-screen indicating that he's that far above them (outside of his higher Super Saiyan forms, obviously).

The first few times I watched the series, I was always more willing to explain away that one line rather than re-jig everything else that happens. Freeza and Cell are the other majorly odd thing, but ... they're dead. Easy out for what could be a basic inconsistency.

It's not just Freeza, Cell and Rild. You also have Goku fighting Super Saiyan Goten and Gohan alone, and defeating them, and they're certainly much, much stronger than Freeza. There's a bunch of things that point towards him being so strong. Ignoring it is the same as me saying Daimao was stronger than God, when he have proof that this isn't the case. Pan and Trunks are either ridiculously weak or ridiculously strong too, pick one, GT never really cared about consistency.

Well, you can explain Gohan and Goten another way. All Goku has to be is a little bit over 5x what the two of them put together are capable of. If we then assume he 's using an aura-less, chant-less Kaioken x10 (something he's been able to do since Namek), then he would hold the same advantage even against their SSJ forms.

Cell and Frieza are even easier. First, remember that Otherworld-Tournament Goku fought evenly with Weighted-clothes Pikkon, and Pikkon was able to defeat Cell easily. So nevermind GT Goku; Otherworld Goku could've taken Cell. (My guess is that the anime version of Hell has to, for lack of a better term, digest really strong evil beings before they can be cleansed and reincarnated. I.e., Cell was suffering an environment-imposed massive debuff.) Of course, they are stated to have trained, so maybe they were able to counter the debuff effect, maybe even to the point of reaching Kid Buu tier power. But again, Goku could've been using an aura-less, chant-less Kaioken x10.

This also explains why Vegeta had to go SSJ to handle Gohan and Goten. He doesn't have an incremental power-up technique like the Kaioken, so if his Base were at merely a x10 disadvantage against those two, then his first step to counter it would be going SSJ himself. I.e., if he needed a x10 boost, but his earliest boost comes at x50, then he will use the x50. Which is not the same thing as needing all 50 of the x50.

The dub has the line "Wow, that's much more than I expected", which would allow General Rildo/Base Goku to be above Buu and Metal Rildo/SSJ Goku to be 50x Buu (because I can certainly buy "much more than" equating to "50x"). Going by the dub, I would agree with you.

The subtitles have the line "You're a little bit stronger than I expected." Goku's previous statement describing "what he was expecting" was "greater than Buu's", making Metal Rildo stronger, but not drastically so, than General Rildo. Unless you think "a little bit stronger" equates to "50x" (I don't). This has the added benefit of also giving Goku a reason to have caught on to Rildo's control over the planet's metal (he sensed Rildo's energy far surpassing his actual capabilities, which would lead to Goku wondering where that energy was, if not in Rildo).

Goku did not say he was expecting General Rild to be stronger than Boo, he literally says Base Rild is stronger than Boo, no expectations here.

Well, it wasn't an expectation at the time. Goku encountered General Rildo, sensed "greater than Buu" ki from him and knew that Rildo's exhibited ki was equal to his useable ki.

Right up until Pan attacked Rildo (against Goku's warning) and Rildo responded with much less than what Goku was sensing. At this point, Goku has to backtrack in his thinking and his "knowing" that Rildo exhibits and can use "greater than Buu" ki becomes "expecting" Rildo to have "greater than Buu" ki, just not all of it immediately at his disposal.

Then Goku goes SSJ and Rildo becomes Metal Rildo. Right before Rildo completes his transformation, Goku makes the comment in question. He was expecting Rildo to go from "exhibited ki greater than Buu's/useable ki significantly less" to "exhibited and useable ki both greater than Buu's". What he got instead was "exhibited and useable ki slightly more than greater than Buu's". Hence, "Rildo was a little bit stronger than he expected".

No, of course Goku's statement wasn't an expectation when he said it. He had never encountered a Machine Mutant of Rildo's calibur before then. He would have no reason to expect Rildo's power to operate differently than anyone else's. So it would be a bold affirmative declaration. Right up to the point where he would get a reason to think differently and re-evaluate (which I think was Rildo's response to Pan's attack).

[Sayo-chan]

First, remember that Otherworld-Tournament Goku fought evenly with Weighted-clothes Paikuhan, and Paikuhan was able to defeat Cell easily. So nevermind GT Goku; Otherworld Goku could've taken Cell. (My guess is that the anime version of Hell has to, for lack of a better term, digest really strong evil beings before they can be cleansed and reincarnated. I.e., Cell was suffering an environment-imposed massive debuff.) Of course, they are stated to have trained, so maybe they were able to counter the debuff effect, maybe even to the point of reaching Kid Buu tier power. But again, Goku could've been using an aura-less, chant-less Kaioken x10.

Given the time gap and context, there's no way Goku would stand a chance against Super Perfect Cell. It's possible there's a debuff effect, but I've heard the idea tossed around that due to the lack of aura and sparks that Cell was suppressed due to his confidence in taking on Goku, whereby he was blindsided by Paikuhan in a similar way that Goku was by Majin Vegeta.

[Herms]

I know a lot of people take issue with this, but every time Dragon Fist comes out, it ends up killing or heavily damaging an opponent who by all rights should be much stronger than Goku. I've always viewed that as one of the quirks of the attack. There must be some other drawback like ... maybe it's slow? He does have to distract Hirudegarn, Super 17 and Yi Xing-Long in various ways first.

I've seen a fan theory that the attack is a development on the Oozaru Fist Goku uses against Piccolo, and draws on his dormant power or whatever, meaning the attack's power is tied to whatever Goku's current strongest form is, regardless of what form he's actually in when using it. In other words, when he uses it against Piccolo, it has the power of his Oozaru form. When he uses it in DBZ movie 13, it has SS3 power, and now takes on the form of a dragon because...OK, this part of the theory isn't too clear. Anyway, the point is then that whenever he uses it in GT it will always have SS4 power, regardless of whether he's actually in his SS4 form or not. Which I guess is as good an explanation as any.

[Pantalones]

Incidentally, pegging Metal Rildo and SSJ Goku at "slightly above Buuhan" puts those two at the same level as Vegetto.

...eh? How does "slightly above Gohan-Buu" equal the same level as someone who effortlessly thrashed Gohan-Buu to the point where he was forced to try absorption as a last resort after even turning the guy into candy didn't work? Do you mean base Vegerot (going by the anime filler where they fought for a bit before he transformed) rather than Super Saiyan or something?

[Methuselah]

To me, the first confirmed moment Super Vegetto gets surpassed is when Super Baby 1 appears. Nothing else before that should be on Super Vegetto's level, IMO.

[Tectorman]

Incidentally, pegging Metal Rildo and SSJ Goku at "slightly above Buuhan" puts those two at the same level as Vegetto.

...eh? How does "slightly above Gohan-Buu" equal the same level as someone who effortlessly thrashed Gohan-Buu to the point where he was forced to try absorption as a last resort after even turning the guy into candy didn't work? Do you mean base Vegerot (going by the anime filler where they fought for a bit before he transformed) rather than Super Saiyan or something?

Yeah, I was referring to Base Vegetto, based on his performance in the filler (in a conversation about GT, I tend to think the filler is fair game).

Oh, and here's what my fan-theory of setting GT SSJ Goku and Metal Rildo at Base Vegetto gets us:

Metal Rildo/GT SSJ Goku/Vegetto: (let's just call it X for convenience)
GT SSJ2 Goku: 2X
GT SSJ3 Goku: 8X
SSJ Vegetto: 50X
GT SSJ4 Goku: 80X

According to the GT comic (it was a comic, right?), Vegetto (some unspecified form of him, anyway) is perhaps stronger than a SSJ4 (the only one of which at the time was Goku). "Perhaps" allows for the possibility of "perhaps not", but I would read that as meaning "assuredly within the same ballpark". Which I would consider 50X and 80X.

Obviously not proof, but when multiple interpretations converge like that, I tend to be comfortable with my guesses.