Why do You Care About Power?

[Kiyza]

Long time no see, Kanzenshuu! I've mostly been a lurker for the past few years, but I'm here today because I want to ask certain members of the forum an honest question.

Why do you care so much about the relative strengths of characters? Why do you care so much about power levels, or battle powers, or whatever you prefer to call them? Why is power important to you?

There's a big subculture of this that's taken root on the forums. I remember a while back, I decided to partake in a "versus" discussion. I think it makes a fun mental exercise from time to time and I enjoy friendly internet arguments, but the person I was arguing against was rather obstinate and wouldn't listen much to what I had to say. I kind of gave up any serious arguing with Dragon Ball fans then and there and usually only enter these types of discussions to correct misinformation with regards to other series these days, and obviously not around here. I tend stay out of it because I've noticed a lot more animosity from this subsection of the fandom over the years, with people constantly getting defensive over their theories and attacking or dismissing members who don't agree.

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that this sect of the fandom is infectious. Most topics in the in-universe section of the forums pertain to it, and it certainly wasn't like that when I was an active member. I can understand why someone might want to discuss this aspect of the series, as I've partaken in it before, but it seems like it's 24/7 and drowning out other in-universe topics. A lot of people seem to want to discuss this aspect of Dragon Ball exclusively, and make up wild claims like the "How many multiverses can Goku bench press?" thread I once witnessed.

I want to direct this toward people who are a part of this subsection of the fandom. Why do you care about this in particular? Is it maybe fueled, as I saw one person suspect not long ago, by a rivalry with other fandoms and a desire to pass the levels of strength represented in them? Do you maybe live vicariously through the characters constantly improving and getting stronger? I'm interested in whatever insight you can give.

[VegettoEX]

As opposed to something like a voice actor debate, or even ye olden dub vs. sub debate, I get the feeling people think they can be "right" about strength debates. It somehow feels more "objective" and so the ruffled feathers, indignant responses, and poor attitudes stem from "but I already showed you my math; how can you even debate me?"

Lots of arguments, including dub vs. sub, always felt like this religious doctrine that's trying to be spread and upheld. At the same time, even the most crazy religious people understand that other people have other religions (they don't LIKE that fact, but they know it to be true). That's not the case with "but my math". It's taken to this obscene degree where there's never a conversation. It's always hands-over-ears YAP YAP YAP YAPPING back and forth. I have yet to see a really interesting, engaging, fun, enlightening conversation come about from a strength debate. Not even here. I'm not sure if that means we can't do our job properly as moderators, of if it means the discussion type is inherently incapable of being what I would personally want it to be.

As for the underlying "WHY" behind it all, I asked Kaboom that very question back on Episode #0205 of our podcast. He gave me a really interesting answer: from his perspective, it's about solving a puzzle. There are all these pieces on the board, and you have SOME of the information, and by piecing things together, maybe you can reveal what's missing.

I get that. I totally do. I think that's super cool. I'm not convinced, however, that multiple people can have that conversation with each other without there being a verbal decapitation and a forum ban.

Personally, I get zero satisfaction out of having those discussions. OK, maybe that's not entirely true, but it takes all of about two or three responses before I just give up and wonder why I've wasted my time. I think there's so much more that you can learn about the series and the characters you love so much by going the complete opposite way and looking out-of-universe... which is precisely why Kanzenshuu has become what it is.

[Wibbs]

I can't say I personally have had any experience with that section of the forum, nothing worthwhile anyway. But I'm a long time lurker on the forum from back in 06 and I'm familiar with what you're saying.

I think some people do just have a genuine interest in keeping up with and compiling lists of all the characters powers and how strong they have become. I do get the feeling some of it is just to show off and wave the characters powers in other peoples faces and using the numbers as a form of fact that means whatever is said must be true.

The point behind it is to add a tangible measurement to a characters feats to demonstrate that if they were this number they could beat up a character that had this other number. That's all I get out of it anyway. Hopefully a veteran of the sub-section will come along and explain all, sorry if I wasn't much help.

[Doctor.]

Because a large part of the series focus on that aspect, power, fighting, battling, measuring the power of the opponent and being surprised for five minutes, landing a super awesome blow and realizing four seconds later when the dust clears that he's unfazed. I don't think anyone can deny or pretend that the fighting aspect of the series makes up a huge part of it.

Just like everything, it's a matter of opinion. Some people like debating which version of the series is better, the manga or the anime. Others like to debate dub vs sub. Other go even further and debate about which releases of the manga and anime are better and why. That's fine. We like to debate about which character is stronger than the other, it's what the series keeps doing constantly.

I won't say that discussions don't get out of hand though, they do. But so do other discussions. Shitty people exist everywhere, not only in strength discussions.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

Because if Goku can't beat Superman, than everything I love about Dragonball is worthless! sarcasm

[Captain Strawberry]

Because a large part of the series focus on that aspect, power, fighting, battling, measuring the power of the opponent and being surprised for five minutes, landing a super awesome blow and realizing four seconds later when the dust clears that he's unfazed. I don't think anyone can deny or pretend that the fighting aspect of the series makes up a huge part of it.

Just like everything, it's a matter of opinion. Some people like debating which version of the series is better, the manga or the anime. Others like to debate dub vs sub. Other go even further and debate about which releases of the manga and anime are better and why. That's fine. We like to debate about which character is stronger than the other, it's what the series keeps doing constantly.

I won't say that discussions don't get out of hand though, they do. But so do other discussions. Shitty people exist everywhere, not only in strength discussions.

I think one of the things I dislike in the series is the power aspect of not being able to beat an opponent if your a lot weaker than them through sheer skill etc.

[dbgtFO]

Because a large part of the series focus on that aspect, power, fighting, battling, measuring the power of the opponent and being surprised for five minutes, landing a super awesome blow and realizing four seconds later when the dust clears that he's unfazed. I don't think anyone can deny or pretend that the fighting aspect of the series makes up a huge part of it.

Just like everything, it's a matter of opinion. Some people like debating which version of the series is better, the manga or the anime. Others like to debate dub vs sub. Other go even further and debate about which releases of the manga and anime are better and why. That's fine. We like to debate about which character is stronger than the other, it's what the series keeps doing constantly.

I won't say that discussions don't get out of hand though, they do. But so do other discussions. Shitty people exist everywhere, not only in strength discussions.

I think one of the things I dislike in the series is the power expect of not being able to beat an opponent if your a lot weaker than them through sheer skill etc.

I feel like the characters just aren't very creative with their powers at all.
Kami, Piccolo, Kaio & Kaioshin can all make things appear out of nowhere yet neither one of them uses this effectively in battle. I think Dabra and that Devilguy were the only ones to summon weapons through their magic in the manga(Tao Pai Pai used a hoi poi capsule), but why stop at weapons? Why can't they summon some crazy stuff to drop on their foes? Or give them ridiculously heavy clothes on or something?
We are told that Mutaito managed to seal Piccolo inside a rice cooker with his Mafuba technique. Why can't Bulma exploit her hoi poi capsules and trick people into let's see pressing the button of a wrist watch, that gives the user some heavy clothes on or does something bad to them?
Everything just has to be solved with greater power.

[Captain Strawberry]

Because a large part of the series focus on that aspect, power, fighting, battling, measuring the power of the opponent and being surprised for five minutes, landing a super awesome blow and realizing four seconds later when the dust clears that he's unfazed. I don't think anyone can deny or pretend that the fighting aspect of the series makes up a huge part of it.

Just like everything, it's a matter of opinion. Some people like debating which version of the series is better, the manga or the anime. Others like to debate dub vs sub. Other go even further and debate about which releases of the manga and anime are better and why. That's fine. We like to debate about which character is stronger than the other, it's what the series keeps doing constantly.

I won't say that discussions don't get out of hand though, they do. But so do other discussions. Shitty people exist everywhere, not only in strength discussions.

I think one of the things I dislike in the series is the power expect of not being able to beat an opponent if your a lot weaker than them through sheer skill etc.

I feel like the characters just aren't very creative with their powers at all.
Kami, Piccolo, Kaio & Kaioshin can all make things appear out of nowhere yet neither one of them uses this effectively in battle. I think Dabra and that Devilguy were the only ones to summon weapons through their magic in the manga(Tao Pai Pai used a hoi poi capsule), but why stop at weapons? Why can't they summon some crazy stuff to drop on their foes? Or give them ridiculously heavy clothes on or something?
We are told that Mutaito managed to seal Piccolo inside a rice cooker with his Mafuba technique. Why can't Bulma exploit her hoi poi capsules and trick people into let's see pressing the button of a wrist watch, that gives the user some heavy clothes on or does something bad to them?
Everything just has to be solved with greater power.

*aspect, not except*
You have a point. Also, they aren't very creative with the wishes from Shenron. Like you could wish for something like a greater Zenkai boost (A Human could say, I wish for a greater zenkai boost than a Saiyan). If you can wish for immortality and eternal youth than why not?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Why do you care about character relationships? Why do you care about voice acting? Why do you care about home releases? Why do you care about aspect ratios? Why do you care about the music? Why do you care about animation? Etc, etc.

[Cipher]

I only care about it insomuch as it affects understanding of the plot or universe. In those cases, I think it can be worth having a conversation about, because like it or not, relative character strengths are a big part of Dragon Ball's logic and tension when it comes to storytelling. Any exercises outside of immediate plot-based scenarios, or ones too rigid to allow for stylistic deviance/general inconsistencies, I have no interest in.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Well, people generally like things to be consistent, so when they're not, they speculate on ways to rationalize that.

[huzaifa_ahmed]

Because a large part of the series focus on that aspect, power, fighting, battling, measuring the power of the opponent and being surprised for five minutes, landing a super awesome blow and realizing four seconds later when the dust clears that he's unfazed. I don't think anyone can deny or pretend that the fighting aspect of the series makes up a huge part of it.

Just like everything, it's a matter of opinion. Some people like debating which version of the series is better, the manga or the anime. Others like to debate dub vs sub. Other go even further and debate about which releases of the manga and anime are better and why. That's fine. We like to debate about which character is stronger than the other, it's what the series keeps doing constantly.

I won't say that discussions don't get out of hand though, they do. But so do other discussions. Shitty people exist everywhere, not only in strength discussions.

I think one of the things I dislike in the series is the power aspect of not being able to beat an opponent if your a lot weaker than them through sheer skill etc.

I have 3 unrelated points:

1. There is no such "sheer" skill. There is obviously willpower, maybe instinct, but combat isn't the place for calculations. Your skill comes from your strength. I'd wager to say that your overall ability is almost always below your natural "strength" and limited by your training.

Boys' "battle" stories are full of fables of overcoming stronger enemies through "resolve" and willpower, by the way. Check out things inspired by Dragon Ball for this trope.

2.As Doctor said, the story halfway-revolves around this logic; it is, of course, so full of holes, it's impossible to ignore these discussions.

3. Power "debates" don't "happen" to tend toward unininformed, "opinioniated" drivel; they are specifically a product of FUNimation's marketing of Dragon Ball (Z) as animated WWE.

Only made worse with the Budokai (literally: "Tournament") video games and their ilk.

[B]

This thread obviously isn't aimed at a guy like myself, but I care about power... insomuch as it directly relates to propelling the narrative and sustaining a compelling story. I think one of things that has always fascinated me was the "who is the strongest Buu?" debate, and I've always fallen into the camp that the original Buu is that; all the other forms are watered down by other factors or absorptions or whatever. Thematically, it makes sense because he's the final enemy and why would he be a threat if he was weaker than the last form? But of course, without fail, any time that topic comes up, somebody comes in with their math and Goku's or Vegeta's exact wording right down to mouth flaps and syllables that based on such and such, Genuine Buu is "so obviously" not the strongest. And it feels like any enjoyment that comes out of the arc is sucked out when that happens. A similar example is that the Saiyans in their original states aren't drastically more powerful throughout the timeskips. Based on all the technical hooplah and fans' desire to be overly analytical of every line, God-fused Piccolo is stronger than any of the Saiyans pre-SS transformations, and anything that might dispute that is insane and unenjoyable. For me, power shenanigans have to be outlandishly wrong for it to bother me. Yamcha lands a good blow to Vegeta; okay, that is weird. Goku, Gotenks, or Vegeta putting up a decent fight against a new enemy while mightiest-of-the-mightiest-unlocked-potential-giant-dick Ultimate Gohan gets thrashed? Some people would find that absurd, but those characters are all close enough in ability to me that anything is possible.

[Herms]

Why do you care about character relationships? Why do you care about voice acting? Why do you care about home releases? Why do you care about aspect ratios? Why do you care about the music? Why do you care about animation? Etc, etc.

Could you elaborate on this please? If you're just trying to say "why does anyone care about anything?", then that's not a terribly helpful response to Kiyza's well-articulated question.

[Caulifor]

Well, people generally like things to be consistent, so when they're not, they speculate on ways to rationalize that.

This. I am not very found of having power discussions ("would character X defeat character Y?"), but when a battle is shown in the official material and it makes no sense whatsoever (like the Piccolo vs Shisami fight in Resurrection 'F' that I always mention around here), it messes up with consistency. And though Dragon Ball isn't known for its complex and consistent plot, characters' power/growth are one of the things that matter the most in the overall story, and when they're not depicted correctly, it greatly bothers me.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Why do you care about character relationships? Why do you care about voice acting? Why do you care about home releases? Why do you care about aspect ratios? Why do you care about the music? Why do you care about animation? Etc, etc.

Could you elaborate on this please? If you're just trying to say "why does anyone care about anything?", then that's not a terribly helpful response to Kiyza's well-articulated question.

My point is, I don't get why this is even a question. Power is a huge part of the series, like all the things I mentioned, of course people are gonna care about it. Sure, there are people that get obsessed with this, but this happens with everything. People here get obsessed with the animation, with the music, with the aspect ratios, with plot-points, with voice acting, even with freaking grain on the image, to equally absurb levels as well, and ironically, they are usually the ones that act snobish on "the kids" that talk about "powuh levels" (and I find this part of the fandom more disgusting than the assholes that will treat their opinions as undeniable facts & then say bad things about your mom). They will right huge articles about why Bardock isn't portrayed correctly in a 10-page extra chapter, but god forbit anyone to complain about SSGSS Goku getting hurt by a weak beam*, who the hell cares about power levels?! Who the hell cares about consistency in the story?!

*I don't find the scene incosistent myself, but others do.

I'm not usually letting inconsistencies affect my enjoyment (I love GT, and I think this says a lot about it), but when I see inconsistencies in the story, of course I'm gonna talk about them, be it the number of wishes the DBs have, or the power differences some characters should have. The manga is consistent with power differences (prove me wrong), and it makes clear how strong someone has to be in order not just to damage, but to even affect someone. You can't say "In my opinion, Kame-sennin would give SS Goku a good fight because he is a great martial artist, and I don't care about power levels like the kids there". You can have an opinion, but you can also be factually wrong, and that's one reason why I think people don't like these discussions.

And the problem is, people forget that this is a series for kids about fighting. People have grown up, so they don't want to see Goku fighting bad guys & get stronger, they want to see his relationship with his sons & Vegeta, how the characters spend their time, etc. But this isn't what Dragon Ball mainly is about.

Anyway, why do I care about power? Because it's part of the story, and I love having discussions about the story, it's usually fun. And not just about the powers, about anything. It's so simple.

[VegettoEX]

The manga is consistent with power differences (prove me wrong)

This is precisely the kind of comment I reference in my initial post here. It's stand-offish, defensive-from-the-start, and quite frankly, a disgustingly rude way to initiate a conversation.

This drives certain people away from the conversation in the first place ("why would I even bother talking to this person?"), and the people that DO stick around for it have no choice but to go in as equally full-force in their defensiveness if they even remotely want to be heard and acknowledged.

Not my cup of tea, that's for sure.

[DoomieDoomie911]

I find power level discussions to be pointless and futile. Seriously, why do people even care?

[voltlunok]

I find power level discussions to be pointless and futile. Seriously, why do people even care?

I find they can be fun if people are open to actual discussion and show some decent respect to others during said discussion instead of trying to measure out egos and whose better at the maths then others. I remember weighing in on a VS match in the All purpose VS thread a while back. It was 23rd Budokai Goku vs the Teen Titans, I said goku would blow through the guys with ease, have trouble with star fire and then hit a brick wall with Raven's magic. Almost instantly someone responded "No, Goku just punches their heads off before they can even blink." and that really set the tone for the whole debate. I made my case with Raven (Was pretty solid IMO.), backed it up with facts and feats but they wouldn't see anything other then Goku punching their heads off and winning as the ending. Even though such behavior and tactics really go against his character in my opinion...it sounded more like they were describing Akuma then Goku. It's that kind of stuff that makes me try my very best to stay away from the in universe forums.

I think power level discussion and VS matches can be really fun if everyone is just open minded to other viewpoints in the discussion but it's all set in it's ways so that's not really possible...oh well. I think it's odd some take power levels so seriously when the show stopped doing so ages ago.

[irreality]

The manga is consistent with power differences (prove me wrong), and it makes clear how strong someone has to be in order not just to damage, but to even affect someone. You can't say "In my opinion, Kame-sennin would give SS Goku a good fight because he is a great martial artist, and I don't care about power levels like the kids there". You can have an opinion, but you can also be factually wrong, and that's one reason why I think people don't like these discussions.

The manga *isn't* consistent about power differences. People treat this so seriously and mathematically -- that there can only be one right answer, but that is not true. The manga and the anime often show power fluctuating with everything from how much someone has eaten, whether they are tired, what attack they are using, whether they are injured, whether they are distracted, the gravity level, skill, spells, and most importantly, emotions. That is why they destroyed all the scouters on a meta level -- because it isn't helpful to the story told to focus on them on a quantative level like that.

I'm not saying people can't have fun with logic puzzles about power levels (and I totally like that part of)-- but they are treated as untouchable canon by some, when the concrete comments on power levels are not always very specific or all-encompassing. Thus why there are so many people with different incontrovertible "facts" about power levels.

And ultimately, it is all a matter of opinion -- it is the interpretation of a story. Yes, it is a series about fighting. But it is not a game of "War (card game)", where you are simply seeing whose number is bigger to see who wins. Dragonball is a story about how characters are affected as a result of fighting and training. "Shonen Jump" is all about showing series that present "friendship, effort, and victory" -- and so is Dragon Ball. When people are interested in the relationships between characters it is not just because they grew up. It is because it is one of the important bits of Dragon Ball -- how enemies can become friends, and how rivals are motivation for doing better. When people are interested in the skill, determination, and emotions of a fighter, it is because they know effort is part of the fight. And yes, they are also interested in who wins, because fighting is part of it. But it is not the only part of it.