How do you deal with overpower in the series?

[Noah]

Well, I made this thread because I want to see your opinions about a point that I always found kinda bad in Dragon Ball, specially in Dragon Ball Z... The overpower.


In DB we always had very good battles with Goku and the other fighters by Tenkaichi Budokai Arcs until Piccolo Daimao Arc when Goku drift away from the other humans in terms of power/strenght. We had good fights because they're most evenly matched, it didn't had a really a great gap between the fighters until DBZ and now DBS

I'm can not complain about BoG/Super for having a guy exaggeratedly overpowered like Beerus If I'm not take into consideration that this began in DBZ and it was got worse by the Freeza Arc, but DBZ was amazing after all, good story, amazing battles, but the overpower, the gaps I always thought that could be something more "milder", I guess.

And now comes my biggest complaint that I want to share in this thread: Isn't the series becoming more overpowered than ever?

It's just too much for me to accept that a guy like Beerus come from "some place" else that I know he is indeed a God, but Kaioshins that are the opposite of a Hakaishins were like SSJ2-tier or little above that and Beerus is like above a hypothetical Full Power Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto? It just drives me crazy! It has no decent reason at all to he have that kind of massive power! He's just too many steps foward the warriors that battled with Majin Boo!

I think that the fights against Beerus could have been better handed, specially with "Ultimate" Gohan, SSJ3 Gotenks, SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta in that order. We know that he is freaking' strong but the "battle scenes" were so boring because such a great gap between the powers that is just too hard to watch.

And I fear for when DBS ends... You know, Goku will maybe surpass Whis or will get even more stronger than that and you know destroy an entire universe with a puff

[Kamiccolo9]

"Overpower" is a verb, and "Overpowered" is an adjective. Neither are nouns, at least not in the way you are using them.

As for the topic itself, as long as it's well-presented, I don't particularly care how strong the characters get. I actually liked SSJG, because of its design, and we got a fun fight out of it.

[Noah]

"Overpower" is a verb, and "Overpowered" is an adjective. Neither are nouns, at least not in the way you are using them.

As for the topic itself, as long as it's well-presented, I don't particularly care how strong the characters get. I actually liked SSJG, because of its design, and we got a fun fight out of it.

Oh my bad, how could I fix these in the thread? ("Overpower" and "Overpowered")

And for the topic... Yes, that why I didn't bother too much in DBZ about the overpowered characters, because it were well-presented like you said. I don't know I expected more from SSJG, not only because its design but it lacks of feats of really powerful transformation, I mean... SSJ3 almost destroyed a city and its power could be felt even in the Sacred World Of Kais, SSJG is just meh...

[Kaboom]

...and Beerus is like above a hypothetical Full Power Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto? It just drives me crazy! It has no decent reason at all to he have that kind of massive power!

I felt a need to pick out this point and use it.

You're right, there's no good reason at all to think that "Full Power Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto" is even part of the equation. He's a hypothetical form of a character that was never even shown to be possible. Maybe he could be, if Goku and Vegeta merged and then Vegetto spent a week or so training or something. Because precedent with Gotenks showed that the Fusion needs to train for any form that its halves don't already have, and only one of Vegetto's halves can go Super Saiyan 3.

But is there any reason to think that would happen within the short-term plot of Battle of Gods or DB Super? When Beerus is on his way to Earth and it could be destroyed within the hour? No, no there isn't.

Which I think is a big part of where the "overpowered" problem comes from. It's mostly a product of fans' own over-zealous imaginations. Fans who dwell on in-universe strength comparisons are often too eager to "bloat" the powers at work by stretching EVERY. SINGLE. IMPLICATION to the most extreme possible conclusion. "Goku says Fusion with Vegeta probably wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus? Well clearly that MUST mean Vegetto would effortlessly get his butt kicked even at Super Saiyan 3, meaning Beerus is at least 500,000,000x stronger than Goku."

I mean... seriously, what?!

[Herms]

Even that wouldn't be a big problem if fans hadn't made it a habit of hyping Vegetto out to infinity and beyond...which also wouldn't be so big a deal if Gotenks didn't get some of the same treatment. Etc, etc. Beerus is just introduced with the standard "new strongest character is way stronger than old strongest character(s)" treatment that we've got on a steady beat since Piccolo, and Goku saying even fusion might not be enough to beat him is just part and parcel of that. None of this should be too surprising. Piccolo was fusing with people left right and center, but gets casually left in the dust before the Cell Games even begin. Nobody should have expected the Boo arc fusions to be treated as a sacred cow (and even within the arc, Gotenks is inferior to Ultimate Gohan).

That said, the various official multipliers probably don't help, and can really distort how people interpret the series. People get hung up on non-SS3 Vegeta getting stronger than SS3 Goku because that means he suddenly gets over 4 times stronger, even though "4 times stronger" doesn't really mean anything when you get right down to it. Same with all the kerfuffel about base Saiyans surpassing Super Saiyans or whatever. "It's crazy to think character x gets 400 times stronger in y amount of time!" What does 400 times stronger mean? Not really anything, either. It's just another way of saying "a whole lot stronger".

People get tripped up focusing too much on these meaningless numbers that nobody actually producing the series takes into consideration. From their point of view, it's all just "this character's way stronger than these ones". If you look at Beerus in that light, I really don't think he's out of keeping with the likes of Freeza or Cell.

[fadeddreams5]

The disparity between Beerus' power and everyone else's is very different from your standard "new villain stronger than the last." The characters have always been able to hold their own after the Frieza saga... until they lose. Then they train, and they win. By the Buu saga, the villain is pretty much a non-threat, but Goku turns him into one by relying on his kids. Gotenks is able to hold his own against Buu with some training. Gohan is able to curbstomp Buu until he absorbs the others, but even then, he's not one-shotted. Vegito makes a sport out of the strongest villain in the manga. At this point in the story, everyone is far and beyond the strongest in their universe, with their powers being able to be sensed throughout the galaxy, even impressing the gods of gods of god.

Beerus? He's able to one-shot everyone. I mean, everyone. Nobody stands the most slim of chance--not for a single second. And to top that? No amount of training or fusing will ever help them attain the power necessary to go toe to toe with him. Instead, they need to perform ancient rituals to become gods. The kicker? As a SSJG, Goku stands as much a chance against Beerus as the cast did against those villains mentioned that were stronger than the last set. After training and mastering the god powers? It's implied Goku still wouldn't be able to beat Beerus on his own. Oh, oh, and even funnier? Whis is about twice as strong, and possesses time manipulation.

This sort of gap has NEVER been seen before. And we're going to be getting more and more OP characters from here on out. That said, I don't know if this bothers me yet. I'm on the fence about it. I just don't want to see a shit ton of more forms for Goku. It's redundant as hell as it is.

[Birusu16]

I'm actually glad we've finally gotten an obstacle that can't be surpassed easily. It will make the impact of when/if he's defeated much more meaningful.

[Noah]

Because precedent with Gotenks showed that the Fusion needs to train for any form that its halves don't already have, and only one of Vegetto's halves can go Super Saiyan 3.

That's never been confirmed. Also Vegetto is made by a diferent fusion and more powerful method, Potara fusion, so I think that even if one of its halves don't have reached SSJ3, Vegetto could do it.

Which I think is a big part of where the "overpowered" problem comes from. It's mostly a product of fans' own over-zealous imaginations. Fans who dwell on in-universe strength comparisons are often too eager to "bloat" the powers at work by stretching EVERY. SINGLE. IMPLICATION to the most extreme possible conclusion. "Goku says Fusion with Vegeta probably wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus? Well clearly that MUST mean Vegetto would effortlessly get his butt kicked even at Super Saiyan 3, meaning Beerus is at least 500,000,000x stronger than Goku."

Well if we go by your thoughts than the same applies to either base Goku wouldn't be enough to defeat Freeza. Seeing anime for long time since I was a kid, you know and I know that "probably" or "maybe" means "certainly" in most cases.

[RandomGuy96]

As of faff, Beerus is nothing. SSGSS Gogeta or Vegetto could smash him like a bug, and even Goku and Vegeta unfused have a chance against him. So, he's no more powerful relative to the new characters, than Super Buu was relative to the Buu arc characters (Buu was a lot stronger than SS3 Goku and SS2 Vegeta together with no one absorbed, and stronger than everyone but Vegetto in his final form). We just don't ever see him get his shit wrecked because reasons.

[Birusu16]

As of faff, Beerus is nothing. SSGSS Gogeta or Vegetto could smash him like a bug, and even Goku and Vegeta unfused have a chance against him. So, he's no more powerful relative to the new characters, than Super Buu was relative to the Buu arc characters (Buu was a lot stronger than SS3 Goku and SS2 Vegeta together with no one absorbed, and stronger than everyone but Vegetto in his final form). We just don't ever see him get his shit wrecked because reasons.

Neither of which actually exist nor do we know how god power would even work with the fusion, so I'm not sure why you're even bringing them up. The only Vegetto that currently exists is the Buu Saga one and he'd get utterly stomped by Beerus as would the Gogeta that currently exists. There's is no SSGSS Vegetto or Gogeta currently. They're hypothetical fusion forms, nothing more. And no, Goku and Vegeta don't have any chance against him in a 1v1. The only time they'd have a chance against him is if they worked together and even then the best they can do is fight evenly with him. He's still by far the 2nd most powerful character as of Fukkatsu no F, so your statement of him being nothing is flat out wrong.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Neither of which actually exist nor do we know how god power would even work with the fusion, so I'm not sure why you're even bringing them up.

Why would fusion work any differently than it normally does? What kind of indication is given God powers affect fusion?

[Birusu16]

Neither of which actually exist nor do we know how god power would even work with the fusion, so I'm not sure why you're even bringing them up.

Why would fusion work any differently than it normally does? What kind of indication is given God powers affect fusion?

I don't know hence my point. God power is a different power entirely. If/how it affects fusion is unknown at this point. The moment Goku absorbed the SSJG power his SSJ form didn't in anyway work the way it used to. The multiplier was far less. Who's to say the same thing isn't the case for fusion? We simply don't know. Either way it doesn't matter. The discussion is pointless considering we've seen no fusion of a current Goku and Vegeta. All that pertains to such a character is hypotheticals and I'm not really interested in discussing that.

[RandomGuy96]

Neither of which actually exist nor do we know how god power would even work with the fusion, so I'm not sure why you're even bringing them up. The only Vegetto that currently exists is the Buu Saga one and he'd get utterly stomped by Beerus as would the Gogeta that currently exists. There's is no SSGSS Vegetto or Gogeta currently. They're hypothetical fusion forms, nothing more. And no, Goku and Vegeta don't have any chance against him in a 1v1. The only time they'd have a chance against him is if they worked together and even then the best they can do is fight evenly with him. He's still by far the 2nd most powerful character as of Fukkatsu no F, so your statement of him being nothing is flat out wrong.

It's only "wrong" if you just flat-out make shit up to make Beerus a bigger deal than he is. Can you please show me where it is stated that a fusion between Goku and Vegeta would be different than it ever was? If you're insisting that SSGSS is a special exception to every other fusion we've seen, the burden of proof is on you to prove that.

Neither of which actually exist nor do we know how god power would even work with the fusion, so I'm not sure why you're even bringing them up.

Why would fusion work any differently than it normally does? What kind of indication is given God powers affect fusion?

I don't know hence my point. God power is a different power entirely. If/how it affects fusion is unknown at this point. The moment Goku absorbed the SSJG power his SSJ form didn't in anyway work the way it used to. The multiplier was far less. Who's to say the same thing isn't the case for fusion?

So, no evidence. Gotcha.

The discussion is pointless considering we've seen no fusion of a current Goku and Vegeta. All that pertains to such a character is hypotheticals and I'm not really interested in discussing that.

It's about as hypothetical as saying that Krillin would be hurt if Piccolo punched him in the face.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I don't know hence my point. God power is a different power entirely. If/how it affects fusion is unknown at this point. The moment Goku absorbed the SSJG power his SSJ form didn't in anyway work the way it used to. The multiplier was far less.

So, uncorroborated speculation just to keep Beers on top. Super Saiyan isn't fusion, so how God powers affect Super Saiyan doesn't prove anything.

Who's to say the same thing isn't the case for fusion?

What says it does?

[Birusu16]

Neither of which actually exist nor do we know how god power would even work with the fusion, so I'm not sure why you're even bringing them up. The only Vegetto that currently exists is the Buu Saga one and he'd get utterly stomped by Beerus as would the Gogeta that currently exists. There's is no SSGSS Vegetto or Gogeta currently. They're hypothetical fusion forms, nothing more. And no, Goku and Vegeta don't have any chance against him in a 1v1. The only time they'd have a chance against him is if they worked together and even then the best they can do is fight evenly with him. He's still by far the 2nd most powerful character as of Fukkatsu no F, so your statement of him being nothing is flat out wrong.

It's only "wrong" if you just flat-out make shit up to make Beerus a bigger deal than he is. Can you please show me where it is stated that a fusion between Goku and Vegeta would be different than it ever was? If you're insisting that SSGSS is a special exception to every other fusion we've seen, the burden of proof is on you to prove that.

No. I'm insisting on waiting instead of jumping to conclusions. We already have evidence that shows forms function differently after attaining god power (i.e. Goku's SSJ form). And I don't even need to prove anything anyway because you're talking about two hypothetical fusion forms. Essentially fan-fiction at this point. They don't currently exist.

So yes, it is wrong. Beerus most certainly isn't "nothing" like you say he is. He's by far the 2nd most powerful character as of Fukkatsu no F.

I don't know hence my point. God power is a different power entirely. If/how it affects fusion is unknown at this point. The moment Goku absorbed the SSJG power his SSJ form didn't in anyway work the way it used to. The multiplier was far less.

So, uncorroborated speculation just to keep Beers on top. Super Saiyan isn't fusion, so how God powers affect Super Saiyan doesn't prove anything.

Who's to say the same thing isn't the case for fusion?

What says it does?

1. Uncorroborated speculation would insinuate I'm leaning toward an option I brought up, which I'm certainly not. I gave a one of many options. I never said fusion would be affected by the god power. I said it could be and I gave my reasoning behind why it could be affected. Whether you believe that or not isn't something I have any interest in. You've got to love how people take things as facts despite them not being presented that way.
2. Implying I ever said it is. I said what if. Don't put words in my mouth. I've said time and time again that I don't know.

[RandomGuy96]

Neither of which actually exist nor do we know how god power would even work with the fusion, so I'm not sure why you're even bringing them up. The only Vegetto that currently exists is the Buu Saga one and he'd get utterly stomped by Beerus as would the Gogeta that currently exists. There's is no SSGSS Vegetto or Gogeta currently. They're hypothetical fusion forms, nothing more. And no, Goku and Vegeta don't have any chance against him in a 1v1. The only time they'd have a chance against him is if they worked together and even then the best they can do is fight evenly with him. He's still by far the 2nd most powerful character as of Fukkatsu no F, so your statement of him being nothing is flat out wrong.

It's only "wrong" if you just flat-out make shit up to make Beerus a bigger deal than he is. Can you please show me where it is stated that a fusion between Goku and Vegeta would be different than it ever was? If you're insisting that SSGSS is a special exception to every other fusion we've seen, the burden of proof is on you to prove that.

No. I'm insisting on waiting instead of jumping to conclusions. We already have evidence that shows forms function differently after attaining god power (i.e. Goku's SSJ form). And I don't even need to prove anything anyway because you're talking about two hypothetical fusion forms. Essentially fan-fiction at this point. They don't currently exist.

So yes, it is wrong. Beerus most certainly isn't "nothing" like you say he is. He's by far the 2nd most powerful character as of Fukkatsu no F.

"Fan fiction" nothing. Those earrings still exist and they both still know the dance. Again, do you have any actual evidence that everything has changed to the point that a fusion between Goku and Vegeta now wouldn't be able to overpower someone barely stronger than them individually, i.e. that this fusion would produce a wildly different result than every other fusion?

That's like saying Kaioshin was by far the strongest guy at the 25th Budokai, because Gohan, Vegeta, and Goku never used their Super Saiyan forms.

[Birusu16]

"Fan fiction" nothing. Those earrings still exist and they both still know the dance. Again, do you have any actual evidence that everything has changed to the point that a fusion between Goku and Vegeta now wouldn't be able to overpower someone barely stronger than them individually, i.e. that this fusion would produce a wildly different result than every other fusion?

That's like saying Kaioshin was by far the strongest guy at the 25th Budokai, because Gohan, Vegeta, and Goku never used their Super Saiyan forms.

That's great. Have they done it? No. Until they do then it's nothing but hypotheticals (i.e. fan-fiction). Or should I start listing a hypothetical Whis and Beerus fusion as the strongest being in DB? Or how about a hypothetical Omega Shenron and SSJ4 Gogeta fusion? The only fusion of Vegetto that currently exists is the SSJ one from the Buu saga and the only fusion of Gogeta that exists is the SSJ one from the movie.

[RandomGuy96]

"Fan fiction" nothing. Those earrings still exist and they both still know the dance. Again, do you have any actual evidence that everything has changed to the point that a fusion between Goku and Vegeta now wouldn't be able to overpower someone barely stronger than them individually, i.e. that this fusion would produce a wildly different result than every other fusion?

That's like saying Kaioshin was by far the strongest guy at the 25th Budokai, because Gohan, Vegeta, and Goku never used their Super Saiyan forms.

That's great. Have they done it? No. Until they do then it's nothing but hypotheticals (i.e. fan-fiction). Or should I start listing a hypothetical Whis and Beerus fusion as the strongest being in DB? Or how about a hypothetical Omega Shenron and SSJ4 Gogeta?

You could. Though, unlike in the case of Goku and Vegeta, those fusions aren't likely to ever happen. Whis and Beerus don't have access to the earrings (or an easy method of separating themselves), nor do they know the dance.

[Birusu16]

"Fan fiction" nothing. Those earrings still exist and they both still know the dance. Again, do you have any actual evidence that everything has changed to the point that a fusion between Goku and Vegeta now wouldn't be able to overpower someone barely stronger than them individually, i.e. that this fusion would produce a wildly different result than every other fusion?

That's like saying Kaioshin was by far the strongest guy at the 25th Budokai, because Gohan, Vegeta, and Goku never used their Super Saiyan forms.

That's great. Have they done it? No. Until they do then it's nothing but hypotheticals (i.e. fan-fiction). Or should I start listing a hypothetical Whis and Beerus fusion as the strongest being in DB? Or how about a hypothetical Omega Shenron and SSJ4 Gogeta?

You could. Though, unlike in the case of Goku and Vegeta, those fusions aren't likely to ever happen. Whis and Beerus don't have access to the earrings (or an easy method of separating themselves), nor do they know the dance.

And what says a Goku and Vegeta fusion is more likely to happen? You? The fact is all of this is nothing but hypotheticals. They haven't happened and until they do it's essentially fan-fiction. There is no SSGSS Vegetto. There is no SSGSS Gogeta. There is no Beerus and Whis fusion. There is no Omega Shenron and SSJ4 Gogeta fusion.

[RandomGuy96]

And what says a Goku and Vegeta fusion is more likely to happen? You?

The fact that they have the earrings and know the dance, and that nothing is even remotely implied about them not being able to fuse other than shit you just made up.