Who's flanderization in Super is the most disheartening?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Who's flanderization in Super is the most disheartening?

Post by LuckyCat » Wed Aug 26, 2015 4:30 pm

irreality wrote:FWIW, flanderization is not the same as out of character/different characterization, or even off-putting characterization. It refers to reducing someone to a single character trait.

Videl, I don't know -- still reserving judgement here. Not enough scenes with her yet.
Yes, which is why Videl isn't really a great example of flanderization. In Buu saga, she was mostly shown to be strong, intelligent, and a crime fighter. If anything, what people are complaining about with Super's Videl is her new characterization, or perhaps even a mischaracterization. That, as you said, is something else entirely.
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Re: Who's flanderization in Super is the most disheartening?

Post by Blackstripe » Wed Aug 26, 2015 4:57 pm

irreality wrote:FWIW, flanderization is not the same as out of character/different characterization, or even off-putting characterization. It refers to reducing someone to a single character trait. Beerus being more evil is not a flanderization since he still has lots of character traits (loves food, sleeping, is capricious and impatient, etc). Whether this is a bad or good characterization is a matter of taste. Same with Mr. Buu being more temperamental. As far as I know he is still as well rounded as he ever was. He is just more hair-trigger and less enamoured by Mr. Satan than people expect him to be.

I do think him being portrayed as completely docile to Mr. Satan is more of flanderization than him slowly learning to interact in an adult fashion over the course of the series, though. YMMV.

I do think Roshi has been a bit flanderized, but maybe he will be shown to do other things later on like in the RoF arc, where he fights, and that will solve that. Videl, I don't know -- still reserving judgement here. Not enough scenes with her yet.
Oh, Beerus definitely had his sadistic side in the movies. He stepped on King Vegeta's head, if you recall. But it was considerably subdued in comparison to his depiction in Super.

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Re: Who's flanderization in Super is the most disheartening?

Post by Beerus-sama » Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:01 pm

Blackstripe wrote:I do agree that Beerus' portrayal is too sinister here. His actions aren't the problem. It's his demeanor. He shouldn't be so sadistic about everything. I much preferred his matter-of-fact attitude from the movies when it came to his destruction.
Except that we didn't got to see him destroy a planet in the movies... but I agree that he's being shown more sinister, specially with Vegeta, and I'm not liking that... :?
irreality wrote:Same with Mr. Buu being more temperamental. As far as I know he is still as well rounded as he ever was. He is just more hair-trigger and less enamoured by Mr. Satan than people expect him to be.

I do think him being portrayed as completely docile to Mr. Satan is more of flanderization than him slowly learning to interact in an adult fashion over the course of the series, though. YMMV.
As for now, we haven't seen nothing more from Buu than him just being capricious with wanting all the food for himself and being mad if he doesn't get it.
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Re: Who's flanderization in Super is the most disheartening?

Post by irreality » Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:41 pm

Beerus-sama wrote: As for now, we haven't seen nothing more from Buu than him just being capricious with wanting all the food for himself and being mad if he doesn't get it.
Which is different than how he was before… how?

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Re: Who's flanderization in Super is the most disheartening?

Post by Beerus-sama » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:24 pm

irreality wrote:
Beerus-sama wrote: As for now, we haven't seen nothing more from Buu than him just being capricious with wanting all the food for himself and being mad if he doesn't get it.
Which is different than how he was before… how?
Before he was funny, cute, he made Mr. Satan and the dog his friends, he played with them and found food for them.
He tried to protect them when the gray Buu came out.
he also fought with Kid Buu when Vegeta was beaten and kept fighting to his limits knowing he was helping Mr Satan and the others.

Now looks like all of this doesn't matter to him anymore and just want food for himself.
He doesn't even appreciate that Mr. Satan was trying to defend him when Beerus was going to start the fight with him over the pudding and his views...
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Re: Who's flanderization in Super is the most disheartening?

Post by irreality » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:35 pm

He is still friends with Mr. Satan and the dog, though -- they seem to hang out 24/7. And his being obsessed with food is just not funny because we know how dangerous Beerus is when angered. With anyone else, licking pudding cups is just a childish way of calling dibs. And he tries to fight Beerus a second time when everyone else was getting their asses kicked, even though he didn't have to and was clearly beyond his abilities.

I don't know, I don't see him as a huge dick, I guess. Just an overgrown, barely tamed bubblegum-child.

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Re: Who's flanderization in Super is the most disheartening?

Post by garfield15 » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:45 pm

The reason Buu has been acting like this lately is because every scene we've seen with him has been him being hungry.

Buu being hungry=can't be reasoned with by normal means

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Re: Who's flanderization in Super is the most disheartening?

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:20 pm

I'm fine with Beerus' faults being presented a lot more in Super than in the movies. A lot of time Dragon Ball just straight up ignores or severely downplays a characters faults because... ? Which has recently really started to bug the hell out of me. Beerus, even without the sinister stuff from Super, is a 100% scumbag in my book. A guy with all the power in the universe who will wipe out entire civilizations, murdering billions on a whim and even if you ass kiss him to the max, your chances of being murdered are still astronomically high. Beerus is scary, he is absolutely EVERYTHING wrong you can think of about a God and that's what makes him interesting. Super showing just how terrifying he is behind all his politeness, smiles and comedic moments is absolutely the right thing to do.
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Re: Who's flanderization in Super is the most disheartening?

Post by B-kun » Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:29 pm

Really, one thing I've noticed is that people are mostly grumpy that a character doesn't live up to their idealized version in their head or they're taking one scene they've talked in and made it their entire character. The show is only seven episodes in, guys, give it time before you damn it. This is like people comparing one episode of Sailor Moon Crystal to 200 episodes of the first anime.

I will admit that I'm not happy with how generic housewifey Videl is in the new material. Literally everything we've seen of her is "Gohan's pregnant wife". This is a girl who's a fully trained fighter and trained/training to control her ki and fly. I hope Super remembers and actually utilizes this.

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Re: Who's flanderization in Super is the most disheartening?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:53 am

B-kun wrote:Really, one thing I've noticed is that people are mostly grumpy that a character doesn't live up to their idealized version in their head or they're taking one scene they've talked in and made it their entire character. The show is only seven episodes in, guys, give it time before you damn it. This is like people comparing one episode of Sailor Moon Crystal to 200 episodes of the first anime.

I will admit that I'm not happy with how generic housewifey Videl is in the new material. Literally everything we've seen of her is "Gohan's pregnant wife". This is a girl who's a fully trained fighter and trained/training to control her ki and fly. I hope Super remembers and actually utilizes this.
We're not basing it on one scene. It's a recurring thing.
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DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: Who's flanderization in Super is the most disheartening?

Post by Blackstripe » Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:23 am

ekrolo2 wrote:I'm fine with Beerus' faults being presented a lot more in Super than in the movies. A lot of time Dragon Ball just straight up ignores or severely downplays a characters faults because... ? Which has recently really started to bug the hell out of me. Beerus, even without the sinister stuff from Super, is a 100% scumbag in my book. A guy with all the power in the universe who will wipe out entire civilizations, murdering billions on a whim and even if you ass kiss him to the max, your chances of being murdered are still astronomically high. Beerus is scary, he is absolutely EVERYTHING wrong you can think of about a God and that's what makes him interesting. Super showing just how terrifying he is behind all his politeness, smiles and comedic moments is absolutely the right thing to do.
You can't really say he's 100% scum, though, since what would that make the likes of Freeza? 200%?

Beerus, in the movies at least, showed no little to no joy in harming others or destroying things. This isn't downplaying a fault, this is his personality. He is just doing what he considers his job: choosing what to destroy and when. Now, you can argue he still falls on the evil side, but 100% scum?

Would 100% scum catch their exhausted opponent as he falls, lower him back to Earth and then apologize for disrupting their party/slapping Bulma? Can you imagine the likes of Freeza, Cell or Kid Buu doing something like that? :lol:

Beerus definitely has a lot of faults, but unlike other Dragon Ball villains, he has his genuinely good side, too, and that's what makes him unique as a character. He's polite, great fun at parties, and even when he's destroying, he isn't a grinning, psychotic asshole about it. Taking that away just makes him another generic bad guy in my opinion, which is the reason I dislike Super's portrayal of him.

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Re: Who's flanderization in Super is the most disheartening?

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:20 am

Blackstripe wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:I'm fine with Beerus' faults being presented a lot more in Super than in the movies. A lot of time Dragon Ball just straight up ignores or severely downplays a characters faults because... ? Which has recently really started to bug the hell out of me. Beerus, even without the sinister stuff from Super, is a 100% scumbag in my book. A guy with all the power in the universe who will wipe out entire civilizations, murdering billions on a whim and even if you ass kiss him to the max, your chances of being murdered are still astronomically high. Beerus is scary, he is absolutely EVERYTHING wrong you can think of about a God and that's what makes him interesting. Super showing just how terrifying he is behind all his politeness, smiles and comedic moments is absolutely the right thing to do.
You can't really say he's 100% scum, though, since what would that make the likes of Freeza? 200%?

Beerus, in the movies at least, showed no little to no joy in harming others or destroying things. This isn't downplaying a fault, this is his personality. He is just doing what he considers his job: choosing what to destroy and when. Now, you can argue he still falls on the evil side, but 100% scum?

Would 100% scum catch their exhausted opponent as he falls, lower him back to Earth and then apologize for disrupting their party/slapping Bulma? Can you imagine the likes of Freeza, Cell or Kid Buu doing something like that? :lol:

Beerus definitely has a lot of faults, but unlike other Dragon Ball villains, he has his genuinely good side, too, and that's what makes him unique as a character. He's polite, great fun at parties, and even when he's destroying, he isn't a grinning, psychotic asshole about it. Taking that away just makes him another generic bad guy in my opinion, which is the reason I dislike Super's portrayal of him.
To be fair, Beerus was smiling pretty widely and obviously taking a bit of pleasure in the fact that he was about to destroy Earth in the end of BOG. Not mention it's brought up in BOG that he destroyed King Kai's planet over losing in a game of Hide n Seek. So it was very well know that there was quite a sadistic side to Beerus, the movie just never took the time to show more of it like Super has.

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Re: Who's flanderization in Super is the most disheartening?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:29 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
Blackstripe wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:I'm fine with Beerus' faults being presented a lot more in Super than in the movies. A lot of time Dragon Ball just straight up ignores or severely downplays a characters faults because... ? Which has recently really started to bug the hell out of me. Beerus, even without the sinister stuff from Super, is a 100% scumbag in my book. A guy with all the power in the universe who will wipe out entire civilizations, murdering billions on a whim and even if you ass kiss him to the max, your chances of being murdered are still astronomically high. Beerus is scary, he is absolutely EVERYTHING wrong you can think of about a God and that's what makes him interesting. Super showing just how terrifying he is behind all his politeness, smiles and comedic moments is absolutely the right thing to do.
You can't really say he's 100% scum, though, since what would that make the likes of Freeza? 200%?

Beerus, in the movies at least, showed no little to no joy in harming others or destroying things. This isn't downplaying a fault, this is his personality. He is just doing what he considers his job: choosing what to destroy and when. Now, you can argue he still falls on the evil side, but 100% scum?

Would 100% scum catch their exhausted opponent as he falls, lower him back to Earth and then apologize for disrupting their party/slapping Bulma? Can you imagine the likes of Freeza, Cell or Kid Buu doing something like that? :lol:

Beerus definitely has a lot of faults, but unlike other Dragon Ball villains, he has his genuinely good side, too, and that's what makes him unique as a character. He's polite, great fun at parties, and even when he's destroying, he isn't a grinning, psychotic asshole about it. Taking that away just makes him another generic bad guy in my opinion, which is the reason I dislike Super's portrayal of him.
To be fair, Beerus was smiling pretty widely and obviously taking a bit of pleasure in the fact that he was about to destroy Earth in the end of BOG. Not mention it's brought up in BOG that he destroyed King Kai's planet over losing in a game of Hide n Seek. So it was very well know that there was quite a sadistic side to Beerus, the movie just never took the time to show more of it like Super has.
Yeah, so that leaves Mr. Boo as the most ruined.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: Who's flanderization in Super is the most disheartening?

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:42 am

DBZAOTA482 wrote:Yeah, so that leaves Mr. Boo as the most ruined.
Agreed.

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Re: Who's flanderization in Super is the most disheartening?

Post by Eire » Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:31 pm

The only difference between portrayal of Beerus in Bog and Super is that the latter actually shows effects of his short temper, while the former merely mentions them.
Beerus is no sadist and he doesn't feel endangered by characters' presence so he can afford to be merciful, kind, even generous. He reminds me of folk versions of historical figures (Genghis Khan , Bolesław Chrobry, Vlad the Impaler)- in legends they were quick to reward and forgive when they took a liking in someone, but one false step and you got terrible punishment.
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Re: Who's flanderization in Super is the most disheartening?

Post by Ree » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:06 am

Boo he's just annoying now and not charming kinda like Patrick Star.
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Re: Who's flanderization in Super is the most disheartening?

Post by MagicBox » Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:47 pm

None of these have ever bothered me to the point where I wanted to complain about them, but since there's a thread...

Kuririn's "Why is it always me?" gag was worrisome. The 2013 and 2015 movies treated him with a lot of respect, and I'd hate for us to regress again. But to be fair, I thought Kuririn was acting out-of-character throughout all of episode six. I'm worried about this happening to Yamcha, too. That whole conversation between him and Beerus about how he's "one of the best fighters around" was obviously done for laughs. I don't want these two becoming punching bags for the writers.

I don't think we've seen enough of Videl to really be too worried, but I'll be heartbroken if she loses all of her spunk.

I'm surprised to see how many Buu complaints have been made. When exactly did we get such a clear look at this guy's personality? That one filler episode before the epilogue? I haven't had any problems with him. I think they've made it pretty clear that the Buu arc only recently ended and that he's still learning how to function in society as a polite citizen. If the whole "he's always hungry and has a temper" thing continues, then yeah, it'll be a problem. But the show is still in its infancy and I don't think people get that.

Toei always gets ChiChi and Muten Roshi wrong. One's a jerk, one's a perv. Both gags ran out of steam decades ago. I actually don't think ChiChi has been too bad in Super thus far. I'm annoyed by how she's portrayed in the opening, but that's about it.

Beerus and Whis are starting to become parodies of themselves. I'll be happy when this arc ends and they can rest for a bit.

And, while it doesn't really qualify as "flanderization," I'm still not entirely sure what's happened to Marron and Chaozu. Have they both lost the ability to talk? Originally, I thought it was because Toei didn't want to pay for more actors to appear, but both Hiroko Emori and Hiroko Ushida have been voicing them since Super began. So, if you're going to bring them into the recording booth... why not give them dialogue? Chaozu made a couple of "bleh, bleh, bleh!" noises in episode three and all Marron's said so far is complete gibberish. These characters used to talk. Marron was already speaking in the Buu arc. What happened? And Chaozu's always had dialogue (filler or not). He doesn't only have to talk about Tenshinhan. Why not give him one of the throwaway "What amazing power!" lines during some of the fight scenes? It seems like everybody else (even Oolong, Pu-erh, etc.) gets a line of dialogue or two.
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Re: Who's flanderization in Super is the most disheartening?

Post by fexus » Sat Aug 29, 2015 1:44 pm

Well firstly there isn't even enough episode to call anything flanderization. I mean how much screen time does the other cast besides the main one actually get? A few minutes at most?
Secondly, i think its's Kuririn. What's with the not a fighter stuff?
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Re: Who's flanderization in Super is the most disheartening?

Post by Mystic Tien » Sat Aug 29, 2015 2:05 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:Out of the character's traits TOEI loves to overexaggerate who's got it the worst for you?
Imo it actually makes characters more similar to what they were originally in Z compared to what BoG and RoF presented to us. The only odds here are Videl and Buu, but Videl is more OOC rather than flanderized, because she didn't act, like she does now in Super, in Z at all, while in both movies (in RoF case only judging by what I read from script) a lot of characters IMO were OOC, and some were flanderized (mostly Goku).
dbzfan7 wrote:1. Fat Boo cause he's an unlikable dick now.
2. Chi Chi because her bitch persona is on overdrive and it's all she is.
3. Gohan speaks for himself being the writers new punching bag.
4. Muten Roshi being a pervert and nothing more.
5. Videl being the girl and not her regular self.
With this I can agree, but others are more like OOC. Gohan is not exactly OOC though. It is more the way they treat him. We will see though how he acts after being beaten by Beerus, and if the result will be the same as in RoF, then it is sad.
Scarz wrote:Oh, Videl. She has become nothing more than a boring housewife whose only purpose is to carry fetus Pan.
This will happen, if Toriyama ever gets his hands on Pan, I am sure. This or she becomes new Chi-Chi. Or both
ekrolo2 wrote:Videl kind of came in at a weird time I think. If we got a version of her in say during the time Tenshinhan was introduced and she kept up her training, she probably would've remained useful for a good chunk of time until the aliens started stomping the humans in that regard.
Nah, because she is a girl. We already had a girl, who was much stronger than Videl ever was. It was Chichi. Yet we know how all of this ended.
Scott wrote:Videl for the same reasons everyone else has said, they have basically made her a housewife far too soon after she was a badass fighter. Her character now isn't even in the slightest bit like her character from Z. The design of her is awful too, it doesn't look anything like Videl. They could easily have passed her off as someone else.
Ironically enough, she acts just like Hotaru Tomoe from Sailor Moon. Who concidientally shares the same voice actor with her. Heck, she even looks like her now, lol
Scott wrote:Videl for the same reasons everyone else has said, they have basically made her a housewife far too soon after she was a badass fighter. Her character now isn't even in the slightest bit like her character from Z. The design of her is awful too, it doesn't look anything like Videl. They could easily have passed her off as someone else.

Gohan, the character has been completely ruined, it's like they copied GT and just made him a pointless nerd. How about showing some originality ? Why couldn't he be a bit nerd and a bit like his old self ?
In GT he could at least fight, and had guts to do it, lol. GT Perfect Files also stated that he trained, while BoG, RoF and Super Gohan seem to stop training.

Scott wrote:Vegeta, there is too much goofyness added to his character, i can't stand him this way. People laugh at him making faces, doing karaoke and being a chef........i don't get what is so great about seeing this side to Vegeta personally, it just seems like lame fan service. That is not the Vegeta i remember or want him to end up being like. It started towards the end of Z but it wasn't that bad, now it is happening a lot. I know it's likely that he would mellow out now that he isn't so cold hearted, but that doesn't mean he needs to become this. I'm not looking forward to the scenes with Goku and Vegeta, i bet they will be nothing but goofyness. They need be careful in my opinion, they could end up ruining one of the greatest characters in the franchise.
Well, I kind of agree, but this doesn't bother me much, because finally Vegeta cares, he even asked Trunks and Goten to stop, etc. Pretty neat to me.
precita wrote:Beerus is flanderzied from Battle of Gods. Instead of being an ambiguous God he's basically turned into Freeza 2.0 with a love for food.
He was like that in the movies, people just didn't notice it for some reason. He was a guy who chose his job to kill people, this speaks a lot about him.
ekrolo2 wrote:I'm fine with Beerus' faults being presented a lot more in Super than in the movies. A lot of time Dragon Ball just straight up ignores or severely downplays a characters faults because... ? Which has recently really started to bug the hell out of me. Beerus, even without the sinister stuff from Super, is a 100% scumbag in my book. A guy with all the power in the universe who will wipe out entire civilizations, murdering billions on a whim and even if you ass kiss him to the max, your chances of being murdered are still astronomically high. Beerus is scary, he is absolutely EVERYTHING wrong you can think of about a God and that's what makes him interesting. Super showing just how terrifying he is behind all his politeness, smiles and comedic moments is absolutely the right thing to do.
This. So much this. Couldn't agree more.
B-kun wrote:Really, one thing I've noticed is that people are mostly grumpy that a character doesn't live up to their idealized version in their head or they're taking one scene they've talked in and made it their entire character. The show is only seven episodes in, guys, give it time before you damn it. This is like people comparing one episode of Sailor Moon Crystal to 200 episodes of the first anime.

I will admit that I'm not happy with how generic housewifey Videl is in the new material. Literally everything we've seen of her is "Gohan's pregnant wife". This is a girl who's a fully trained fighter and trained/training to control her ki and fly. I hope Super remembers and actually utilizes this.
Yeah, this was the exact problem with Crystal fans, they said that original SM was awful, because it had a lot of horrible episodes, yet said that Crystal has much less episodes, and hence it is better.

I would have bothered, if they didn't make of her the exact copy of my favorite character from Sailor Moon. Now I just don't know how to feel about it.
Blackstripe wrote:
Would 100% scum catch their exhausted opponent as he falls, lower him back to Earth and then apologize for disrupting their party/slapping Bulma? Can you imagine the likes of Freeza, Cell or Kid Buu doing something like that? :lol:

Of course. Frieza is a polite gentleman.
Image
Beerus definitely has a lot of faults, but unlike other Dragon Ball villains, he has his genuinely good side,
Not really, Piccolo Jr, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Android 17 and 18, Fat Buu, Baby, Ledgic all had a genuinely good side to them. Vegeta did not, yet he became good anyway.
He's polite, great fun at parties, and even when he's destroying, he isn't a grinning, psychotic asshole about it.
Frieza is also very polite, is one of his main defining traits, I won't be surprised if he actually was also quite a great guy in parties, and we didn't see how Beerus destroyed planets in BoG.
To be fair, Beerus was smiling pretty widely and obviously taking a bit of pleasure in the fact that he was about to destroy Earth in the end of BOG. Not mention it's brought up in BOG that he destroyed King Kai's planet over losing in a game of Hide n Seek. So it was very well know that there was quite a sadistic side to Beerus, the movie just never took the time to show more of it like Super has.
Yeah, so much this. Agreed with everything.
MagicBox wrote: I'm worried about this happening to Yamcha, too. That whole conversation between him and Beerus about how he's "one of the best fighters around" was obviously done for laughs. I don't want these two becoming punching bags for the writers.
No, Yamcha is just a real God. And he downright stated to Beerus, that he is not a joke, Beerus should really be worried about him, or he gets destroyed instantly.
Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
He almost got Videl killed in Battle of Gods tho.

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Re: Who's flanderization in Super is the most disheartening?

Post by Blackstripe » Sat Aug 29, 2015 3:25 pm

Freeza's politeness was a facade. Everything he says is condescending, if you listen to his tone. Beerus, in BoG at least, and even in Super while he was enjoying the party, was entirely genuine in his courteousness.

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