"Toei Goku" in Super

[JulieYBM]

What's wrong with a fictional character being a dick head?

[fadeddreams5]

Seems like the same Goku to me.

I mean, it is. Don't get me wrong. But certain traits are being overemphasized. This is probably because of the light-hearted nature of the new stuff compared to DBZ, which placed him in much more tense situations.

[DBZAOTA482]

He's a total dick head in Super.

Why? What has he done so far that makes him a "dick head"?

He's a douche to King Kai... it's like they turned that last-minute decision (which he apologized repeatedly for) to save Earth and made it into a running gag, makes a jab at Vegeta and the baby on their purity, and was happy about the SSJG power up (he hated it in the movie). Not to mention he held a grudge against Beerus over the chop n' flick thing.

What's wrong with a fictional character being a dick head?

Nothing, except Goku is not a dickhead.

[Hellspawn28]

Yet another thing Super screwed up from BoG, why does this re-telling exist again?

Super is a sequel to DBZ, not the manga. Unlike BoG.

I think Super would be a midquel then a sequel. Super is set after Buu and before the 28th Tenkachi Budokai. A sequel would be a story set after the last story.

[dougo13]

Source?

I was joking man.
It was a throw back to something that Toriyama said back then:

Toriyama: There’s how, basically, Son Goku from Dragon Ball doesn’t fight for the sake of others, but because he wants to fight against strong guys. So once Dragon Ball got animated, at any rate, I’ve always been dissatisfied with the “righteous hero”-type portrayal they gave him. I guess I couldn’t quite get them to grasp the elements of “poison” that slip in and out of sight among the shadows

Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... interview/

Interesting since Toriyama also likes the Shaw Bros. studios martial arts films. They are full of righteous heroes. So is a lot of literature from Asia and the West. Fighting tougher guys only goes so far though. How do you make it believable with these guys who now can destroy solar systems or even galaxies? Was bad enough in the old 1960s Superman days with him being so godlike that nothing much could affect him. Made for boring stories. Then with Marvel starting with The Watcher and Galactus. Now they are so far off the scale as being able to destroy universes? I gave up reading those books...

[Faustus]

Honestly, I don't like him. I find Goku annoying in Super. I'll gladly take the "Superman" Goku from the DBZ anime, GT, and movies.

Don't mean to derail the thread, but I'll say in passing that I find lumping GT Goku (as well as specifically movie 12 Goku, perhaps) in with the other two types rather problematic given how much of a cocky shithead he can be.

[goku the krump dancer]

All of this being mentioned about Goku is what makes up who he is. He's not perfect, Whis even talks to Goku about his over confidence and even mentioned his lack of thinking (which is a double edged sword) which Vegeta piggy backed on with a joke in RoF. A prime example of Goku's lack of thinking in super is when he seemingly disregards his family and friends when he tests his Kamehameha with which piccolo reminds him that they're all still there. What we're seeing in Super so far are Goku's flaws which as mentioned before he'll be lectured on in the arc to follow.

So far Goku seems to be too over joyed by the God boost to really sit back and think " well damn I could possibly never get this strong on my own" just yet. Remember folks this is a what, 2hr movie? Being broken down into maybe a 15 episode arc. Everything isn't going to happen as fast.

Also wouldn't you be a bit pissed if you're renowned as a world class fighter then all of a sudden this random guy comes up to you and beats you with a disrespectful flick to the head a karate chop? I think that'd eat anyone up, even someone as care free as Goku as we all saw.

[Cetra]

I get the feeling this whole Original and Toei Goku thing gets totally misunderstood and unnecessarily stretched since people got to know about that interview. Gokuu also in the manga was a person who knew what familiy love and feelings for others are in general. And he also has his selfish side in the anime. The only thing that is meant is just that one side is constantly be over-presented and nothing else.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I feel he has mostly been on point, at the end of the day he is still a goofy idiot who loves fighting. The difference isn't as huge as with other characters like Buu and Krillin. Though Goku just rolling with SSG does bother me a bit, maybe he'll mention he disliked that he needed his friends help to achieve it possibly in the scene equivalent to Beerus and Goku's chat in the cave.

[Doctor.]

He's a douche to King Kai... it's like they turned that last-minute decision (which he apologized repeatedly for) to save Earth and made it into a running gag, makes a jab at Vegeta and the baby on their purity, and was happy about the SSJG power up (he hated it in the movie). Not to mention he held a grudge against Beerus over the chop n' flick thing.

> Makes Goten do his work.
> Accepts Mr. Satan's money bribe to escape responsibility.
> Doesn't invite Goten to train with him before leaving his family.
> Doesn't even go to Bulma's party.
> Extremely inconsiderate towards King Kai.
> Throws a jab at Vegeta and his unborn granddaughter before the SSJG ritual.
> Doesn't consider everyone's safety when he fights Beerus, as noted by Piccolo.
> Now holds grudges towards people (Beerus karate chop).
> More smug than ever before, and doesn't even seem to have that sense of pride he exhibited in BoG.

Honestly, I don't like him. I find Goku annoying in Super. I'll gladly take the "Superman" Goku from the DBZ anime, GT, and movies.

I mean what has he done that isn't Goku-like? Because Goku has been an asshole since day one.

[ekrolo2]

Yet another thing Super screwed up from BoG, why does this re-telling exist again?

To provide more coherence in the story when they lead up to the Universe 6 arc, which is when Dragon Ball Super's plot really starts to begin, in all honesty. I mean, not every Dragon Ball fan will have watched BOG and/or ROF, so re-telling the movies provides the luxury for those who didn't find the time to watch the movie. I mean, if Super started with the Universe 6 arc, there would be quite a few fans who feel confused about what the plot would be.

A remake of two and a half year old movie which does less than its monthly manga adaptation to setup U6 provides better context for U6? I can't even sort of agree with that notion. Besides, this is the Internet age where anyone can look up and find out whatever they want. If Toei was smart, they'd wait until the DVD & Blu-rays of RoF dropped and have Super start a couple weeks after the fact. Have a little recap for the previous movies play at the beginning and if anyone still doesn't know whats happening, they can just buy the movies or read what happens there on line. I mean if Super is really going for the younger demographic, then they don't need to worry about that anyway. No one outside Japan gave a crap starting DB when Raditz showed up which was basically the halfway point of the manga so I doubt any of the kids will lose much sleep. Hell, seeing a recap showing awesome things from before would probably work better to increase incentive for purchases of the previous two films then confusing future generations by making two versions of the same story both of which are supposed to count somehow.

[Doctor.]

A remake of two and a half year old movie which does less than its monthly manga adaptation to setup U6 provides better context for U6? I can't even sort of agree with that notion. Besides, this is the Internet age where anyone can look up and find out whatever they want. If Toei was smart, they'd wait until the DVD & Blu-rays of RoF dropped and have Super start a couple weeks after the fact. Have a little recap for the previous movies play at the beginning and if anyone still doesn't know whats happening, they can just buy the movies or read what happens there on line. I mean if Super is really going for the younger demographic, then they don't need to worry about that anyway. No one outside Japan gave a crap starting DB when Raditz showed up which was basically the halfway point of the manga so I doubt any of the kids will lose much sleep. Hell, seeing a recap showing awesome things from before would probably work better to increase incentive for purchases of the previous two films then confusing future generations by making two versions of the same story both of which are supposed to count somehow.

If Super is going for a younger demographic, then they absolutely have to incorporate the moves into Super, because kids won't be buying the movies with their nonexistent money. Either way, I think Toei purposefully created F the way they did, so that they can bridge the gap between BoG and F in Super, that's what they seem to be doing based on episode 13's title. If Super improves F somehow (and it's gonna do that with certainty provided they at least show Freeza's training, since you can't do any worse than F), it's already gonna be worthwhile.

Perhaps the BoG arc in its current form is useless, since it doesn't change much from the movie, but if it improves F in the slightest bit, I'll be happy, because that movie is completely unbearable.

[ekrolo2]

A remake of two and a half year old movie which does less than its monthly manga adaptation to setup U6 provides better context for U6? I can't even sort of agree with that notion. Besides, this is the Internet age where anyone can look up and find out whatever they want. If Toei was smart, they'd wait until the DVD & Blu-rays of RoF dropped and have Super start a couple weeks after the fact. Have a little recap for the previous movies play at the beginning and if anyone still doesn't know whats happening, they can just buy the movies or read what happens there on line. I mean if Super is really going for the younger demographic, then they don't need to worry about that anyway. No one outside Japan gave a crap starting DB when Raditz showed up which was basically the halfway point of the manga so I doubt any of the kids will lose much sleep. Hell, seeing a recap showing awesome things from before would probably work better to increase incentive for purchases of the previous two films then confusing future generations by making two versions of the same story both of which are supposed to count somehow.

If Super is going for a younger demographic, then they absolutely have to incorporate the moves into Super, because kids won't be buying the movies with their nonexistent money. Either way, I think Toei purposefully created F the way they did, so that they can bridge the gap between BoG and F in Super, that's what they seem to be doing based on episode 13's title. If Super improves F somehow (and it's gonna do that with certainty provided they at least show Freeza's training, since you can't do any worse than F), it's already gonna be worthwhile.

Perhaps the BoG arc in its current form is useless, since it doesn't change much from the movie, but if it improves F in the slightest bit, I'll be happy, because that movie is completely unbearable.

The purchasing was more for our generation of people, IE the early 20s crowd who can probably dish out their own cash to buy something at the very least. As for the younger generation, there's always nagging your parents

The Super version of F is basically all that's keeping me on Super until U6 tbh. I agree that the movie is just completely unbearable and pretty pointless as it exists now so Super has plenty of room to fix its problems but I kind of have a feeling that's not going to happen. At worst we'll just get regular RoF with shitier animation & fighting choreography which is entirely possible.

[Doctor.]

You can't have any shittier fight choreography than F, to be honest. As long as it gives me the original SSGSS transformation, improves upon Goku and Vegeta's training and shows us Freeza's training, it's already miles better.

[FortuneSSJ]

I mean, it is. Don't get me wrong. But certain traits are being overemphasized. This is probably because of the light-hearted nature of the new stuff compared to DBZ, which placed him in much more tense situations.

Possible. But its your first time watching a DB anime in japanese?! It can be from that too.

[Araki]

Possible. But its your first time watching a DB anime in japanese?! It can be from that too.

Touché.

I think this different reaction is to give more meaning to Whis' teachings that will come later, similar to how the series added that scene of Goku retreating before Beerus' attack, even not being able to feel it yet, which can also be connected to things Whis teaches him.
Both reactions make sense for Goku. I mean, i can see him being annoyed for getting borrowed powers, but he never complained about fusioning with Vegeta, for instance, even when he thought that would be permanent. So he's not totally adverse to forced power ups if the situation calls, and he loves to fight. Being able to fight on a God level would definitely excite him, at least at first. He could still feel bad in the next episode, who knows. The fight didn't reach that point yet.

[Doctor.]

Both reactions make sense for Goku. I mean, i can see him being annoyed for getting borrowed powers, but he never complained about fusioning with Vegeta, for instance, even when he thought that would be permanent. So he's not totally adverse to forced power ups if the situation calls, and he loves to fight. Being able to fight on a God level would definitely excite him, at least at first. He could still feel bad in the next episode, who knows. The fight didn't reach that point yet.

They do. I just think that after having BoG as something to compare it too, that it'd be nice if we got that reaction from Goku once again, because at the time it was a breath of fresh air, an aspect of Goku's character not touched upon before. If BoG didn't exist and Super never touched on Goku's pride, most people would feel like Goku's reaction to SSG this episode was in-character because, well, it is. It's just out-of-character if we compare it to BoG and say it has to follow it strictly.

[Lord Beerus]

What's wrong with a fictional character being a dick head?

Nothing. It's just that sometimes Toei tends to overemphasize Goku's somewhat anti-heroic characteristics, and it can come across as grating for some fans.

[Doctor.]

What's wrong with a fictional character being a dick head?

Nothing. It's just that sometimes Toei tends to overemphasize Goku's somewhat anti-heroic characteristics, and it can come across as grating for some fans.

What? Toei more often than not emphasize Goku's heroic characteristics while ignoring his flaws.

[DBZAOTA482]

What's wrong with a fictional character being a dick head?

Nothing. It's just that sometimes Toei tends to overemphasize Goku's somewhat anti-heroic characteristics, and it can come across as grating for some fans.

What? Toei more often than not emphasize Goku's heroic characteristics while ignoring his flaws.

TOEI actually goes back-and-forth on that. For example, him stopping in his tracks to eat while getting senzus for Videl or his general attitude in GT.