What would you change about the series?

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Super Yamcha
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What would you change about the series?

Post by Super Yamcha » Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:35 am

So I saw this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jixaxoID61U

It got me wondering, so here are my thoughts. Warning: most of the following is Buu saga critique.

1) The biggest one in my opinion. Gohan should be the only non-fused character to go beyond SSJ1

2) Gohan's character arc during the Buu saga should be more about an inner struggle between his desire for a peaceful life as a scholar and being the strongest fighter on (and therefor protector of) the Earth.

3) This one is personal bias. Gohan should be the one to defeat Buu with the Spirit Bomb.

4) The anime did this a little more, but develop Gohan and Videl's relationship more. At least don't have her disappear from relevance as soon as the villain appears.

5) Either keep Goku and Vegeta fused permanently or remove that stipulation from the Potara Earings. The excuse used to un-fuse them was
.

6) Give Buu only one form and keep him strictly as a force of nature villain. This creates a welcome change of pace from Freeza and Cell. My personal preference is Super Buu, he is one scary
.

7) Have Goten and Kid Trunks only be able to go SSJ as Gotenks.

8) Have Future Trunks' time meddling not create alternate timelines (no string theory).

9) Develop a friendship between Gohan and Android 16, so 16's death has more meaning.

So those are my thoughts. What would you guys change about the series if you had the power?

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Re: What would you change about the series?

Post by sintzu » Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:13 am

I'd have Gohan get written out of the story after the cell arc.
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Re: What would you change about the series?

Post by Theophrastus » Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:22 am

Rework the Androids and Cell such that they're explicitly weaker than Freeza was, but still a deadly threat to the heroes through other means (like how #19 and #20 could absorb ki - give 16/17/18/Cell ki dampening fields or something that make it so the heroes can't fight at full strength or something like that).

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Re: What would you change about the series?

Post by SpiritBombTriumphant » Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:43 am

I would have made it so that Goku came back after dying during the Cell Games. It really bothers me that he was dead for 7 years then comes back. He shouldn't have been able to do that. But other than that, I would possibly just change up where the series starts and ends (hindsight is always 20/20). For instance, I would make it so that Z ended with everyone knowing Goku was alive but not when he would come back, and then Super would start with the events of the Androids saga and go on to Buu, and then come to where we are now and will go (to Universe 6). It seems like it would be better that way imo.

Gotenks wouldn't exist either. That arrogant, naive, annoying little shit is the worst part about the series in my opinion and is more filler than any of Toei's actual filler. :evil:

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Re: What would you change about the series?

Post by Doctor. » Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:00 am

A lot of things. I'd finish it at the Freeza arc, for one, with Goku and Freeza dying and the wish being changed to "revive everyone killed by Freeza and his men, except the really bad ones" so that Vegeta stays dead. But I guess if I wanted to continue it like Toriyama did, the biggest change I'd make would be to kill of Goku permanently at the end of the Cell arc, meaning he isn't revived in the Boo arc or in Super. I'd do a bunch of other changes too, because I don't think Dragon Ball is perfect, but I'd reach a point where I'd have to ask myself if the product I was changing was the Dragon Ball I loved initially or not.

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Re: What would you change about the series?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:06 am

-Give Yamcha more backstory and have him marry Chi-Chi make him stronger
-Make Chi-Chi a Z-Warrior
-Make Cell stay in his semi-perfect former longer
-Have "SSJ2" exclusive to Gohan as his rage boost reaching it's peak
-Remove Goten and Present Trunks from the face of the story
-Have Gohan be the one to defeat Majin Boo and Goku stays dead
-
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DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: What would you change about the series?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:58 am

Namek saga:
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRw-DMflDeI
I'd make the above filler scene canon. First of all, it's badass. Secondly, it fits Vegeta character. And third, I've always found it odd that Vegeta bought that stupid meteor collision story until Dodoria told him otherwise.

2. No third form for Frieza. I've always found that form so pointless (and way too similar to Alien), and just makes the concept of transformations a bit redundant.

3. Buff Goku, Ginyu, and Vegeta, and Nerf Frieza. And by that I mean their power levels. The reason is simple: so the zenkai boosts Goku and Vegeta experience don't seem so damn ridiculous.

Cell saga:
1. Leave Frieza dead! No Mecha Frieza! Instead, King Cold should have arrived on Earth alone to exact revenge, and defeat everyone at once before Trunks arrives. And yes, he should be acknowledged to be stronger than Frieza.

2. There should be some hint somewhere (when Krillin and Trunks enter Gero's lab?) that Dr. Gero used some sort of alien resources to create his androids, explaining their strength. This shouldn't be a major plot point, but it should be placed somewhere, such as a file Krillin looks at that states something about the Tuffles, for example. Just a little easter egg (?).

3. Gohan's character arc should have been explored further to properly build up his stances during the Cell Games and overall transformation. Maybe he could have had more interaction with Trunks (aren't they best friends in the future?), and his stories about the future might have created some impact. Perhaps something could have happened in the ROSAT with Goku that made him realize he disliked fighting. The character needed more reflection and development. It's so strange to me that he does nothing throughout the entire saga, but suddenly he's the one who beats the final villain, who he doesn't even meet until the end.

4. Gohan should have tried to help everyone when the Cell Jrs. attacked them. I understand he was in a state of shock, but I think it would have created more impact if he tried, but kept being pushed back by Cell, forcing him to watch.

In-between saga:
1. There should be a saga starring Kid Gohan. No Goku... at all. The Cell Games ended on a bittersweet note. This saga would probably be the bleakest saga in all of Dragon Ball since everyone is pretty depressed during it. Gohan has no father, and he might still feel a sense of guilt after Goten is born, acknowledging the kid will grow without a father. Vegeta has given up fighting. Chi Chi has no husband. There's just so much room for character development, especially for Gohan, who still couldn't stand on his own at the end of the Cell saga--he JUST learned how to control his powers. I feel this era would be the perfect spot to place a villain like Broly, who can act like a perfect foil to Gohan's character, given that both were born with powers neither ever asked for.

2. Perhaps this saga can start with Gohan obsessively training in fear of someone evil arriving to Earth again, but end with him stopping his training for a valid reason besides him not liking it or things becoming peaceful.

Buu saga:
It shouldn't exist. BURN IT WITH FIRE!

...I'll bite.

1. SSJ2 should NOT be a thing. That form should remain exclusive to Gohan. SSJ3, on the other hand, should be a method Goku discovered in the other world to forcefully substitute for that level of strength. In other words, SSJ2 = exclusive to Gohan. SSJ3 = exclusive to dead SSJs like Goku (i.e. No SSJ2 or SSJ3 Gotenks...). Majin Vegeta vs Goku should be a battle between MSSJs, not "SSJ2s".

2. Gohan should have trained, and should still be the strongest in the arc. When he transforms into a SSJ2 in the tournament, Vegeta should still make the comment that he's grown weaker, but someone should correct him and say that Gohan isn't using all his strength. When Gohan fights Dabura, he should stun everyone by his level of strength.

3. Dabura should be buffed. Him and Gohan should fight to the death. Meanwhile, Babidi should realize Vegeta's impurity on his own, so Goku and Vegeta fight while Gohan and Dabura do their thing. At the same time, Kaioshin and Piccolo (yes, Piccolo should not be turned to stone) should move on to fight Babidi, but not before Majin Buu is released. Gohan should collapse after his battle with Dabura, and Goku should still be KO'd by Majin Vegeta. More or less, the same happens here.

4. Kaioshin should acknowledge that Gohan is still not strong enough to fight Buu, even with his power, so the Z-sword stuff still happens. He still becomes ultimate after the Old Kai taps into the source of his power, bringing it out.

5. The entire final battle should be changed.
- Gohan should curbstomp Super Buu.
- Buutenks should dominate Gohan
- After Gotenks defuses inside Buu, Goten and Trunks should burst out of their pods inside Buu, and have the same adventure Goku and Vegeta had, ultimately triggering the transformation into Kid Buu and saving Piccolo.
- Kid Buu should blow up Earth, but not before Kibito saves everyone. Gohan saves Mr. Satan and Dende.
- Kid Buu should be buffed and equal to Gohan (with regeneration and stamina advantage).
- Not gonna go into full detail, but Goku should still form the spirit bomb. However, when his energy is wished back, the dragon should refuse on account of him being dead (yes, Goku remains dead...). Gohan, instead, asks for his own energy back. As Goku gives up and drops down like a fly, Gohan quickly flies toward the spirit bomb and takes over, killing Buu once and for all. Goku can wish for Buu to be reincarnated as he's falling.

6. Vegeta should witness or sense Goku fighting, allowing him to still have his epiphany.

7. After Kid Buu destroys multiple planets, the purification machine in hell should overheat and explode from all the dead spirits in the other world. Thus, Janemba is born! When Goku returns to the other world after the Kid Buu saga, everything should be a mess--the start of the Janemba saga! <3333

Battle of Gods:
- Videl should still be Videl, not this... character she's been replaced with.

- No Pilaf. Instead, the side plot should involve Gohan trying to figure out a way to propose to Videl, but being too awkward to do so.

- Gohan should be the one to get the rage boost, not Vegeta. Sometime before or after he proposes, she reveals to him that they're having a baby. She tries to plead to Beerus to not destroy the Earth, but he unprovocatively slaps her aside, triggering one of Gohan's greatest rage boosts ever. And yeah, he should briefly stomp 10% Beerus, making the latter assume he's the SSJG before he powers down.

- Goku should spring into action and try to stop Beerus, but be overpowered. As Beerus blasts the planet with his death ball, Goku tries to push it back with a kamehameha. They have a beam struggle that Goku is on the verge of losing. This is when all the other SSJs transfer their power to Goku. This triggers the unexpected: the transformation into a SSJG! No need for Shenron or some lame ass ritual. Four SSJs transferring their power into a 5th one is all it takes.

- Goku pushes Beerus' death ball back to him with his kamehameha, it's dodged, and their battle begins. Goku should fight him as a SSJG from start to finish (i.e. no power down). However, once his time limit is up, he should seemingly lose his powers. Beerus, disappointed, once again attempts to blow up the Earth, but Goku is able to tap into his SSJG power at will for a second and absorb Beerus' blast. Beerus goes away, as in BoG. Yay.

- The design of SSJG should be different. Basically, his SSJ form with red hair (or highlights), red pupil-less eyes, and flaming aura. No need for "SSGSS" after this...

Resurrection F:
Shouldn't exist. Frieza should just tend to his army and train for several years to exact his revenge. Or better, give me a canon Cooler instead.

EoZ:
- Bra should have a different design. She looks older than she is...
Last edited by fadeddreams5 on Wed Sep 16, 2015 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What would you change about the series?

Post by Doctor. » Wed Sep 16, 2015 12:22 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:Gohan should be the one to get the rage boost, not Vegeta. Sometime before or after he proposes, she reveals to him that they're having a baby. She tries to plead to Beerus to not destroy the Earth, but he unprovocatively slaps her aside, triggering one of Gohan's greatest rage boosts ever. And yeah, he should briefly stomp Beerus, making the latter assume he's the SSJG before he powers down.
I'm sorry, but that seems so incredibly fanboyish, don't you think so? :P Especially when the BoG arc had a great focus on Vegeta, not Gohan. I would personally change it so that Vegeta's rage boost does nothing against Beerus, because at least the build-up came to something.

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Re: What would you change about the series?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Wed Sep 16, 2015 12:36 pm

Doctor. wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:Gohan should be the one to get the rage boost, not Vegeta. Sometime before or after he proposes, she reveals to him that they're having a baby. She tries to plead to Beerus to not destroy the Earth, but he unprovocatively slaps her aside, triggering one of Gohan's greatest rage boosts ever. And yeah, he should briefly stomp Beerus, making the latter assume he's the SSJG before he powers down.
I'm sorry, but that seems so incredibly fanboyish, don't you think so? :P Especially when the BoG arc had a great focus on Vegeta, not Gohan. I would personally change it so that Vegeta's rage boost does nothing against Beerus, because at least the build-up came to something.
That's why I mentioned this:
"No Pilaf. Instead, the side plot should involve Gohan trying to figure out a way to propose to Videl, but being too awkward to do so."

That's the build up. Vegeta, on the other hand, would still have his role as the person who distracts Beerus. He'd also fight. Just no rage boost. It's stupid.

And the point is to provide fanservice! This was the first DBZ movie in over a decade. A throwback to Gohan's rage boost is a nice treat, imo. No need to suck Gohan's ****, but that was an important part of his character, and it would have been nice to see it again after a decade of no DBZ.
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Re: What would you change about the series?

Post by Absolute Ice » Wed Sep 16, 2015 12:46 pm

Would keep the adventure in the Z series. Bardock, Gine and Raditz would play a better, worthy and longer role. Super Saiyan 2 would be more useful and would keep it around longer. Gotenks would be able to ascend until Super Saiyan 2. Would remove the Super Saiyan 3 transformation. Would replace Cell for Mira and his arc would be the longest and based on many aspects from Dragon Ball Online/Xenoverse. Would tell a lot of backstories of many characters and races. The final villain would be either Freeza or Mira. Would remove "Mystic/Ultimate" state from Son Gohan. Would rename "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" to a proper, adequate and decent name, also giving a fine good-looking color (like ice-blue or white). Kaios, Kaioshins and Hakaishins would play the same role, only stronger by Marvel's and DC's standards most powerful gods. Only Metamoran fusion would exist, that includes Gogeta of course. Janemba would be canon. And I think this is all.
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Re: What would you change about the series?

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:01 pm

Everyone in the Android and Cell arc would have a brain.

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Re: What would you change about the series?

Post by voltlunok » Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:22 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Everyone in the Android and Cell arc would have a brain.
But....then Android arc wouldn't happen! Cell Arc wouldn't happen! D: Eh no big loss.

I'd get rid of Super Saiyan or at least give everyone some way to stay relevant all the way to the end instead of falling off the train one by one as the saiyans continue to catapult farther and farther away until everyone who isn't named Piccolo can't see them anymore.

I'd also keep Vegeta dead after Freeza killed him on Namek.
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Re: What would you change about the series?

Post by Chuquita » Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:32 pm

I miss kaio-ken. I'd give it to the "fight club" members; Tenshinhan, 18, and Piccolo. Maybe Kuririn.

Speaking of, more use of Piccolo's stretchy arms attack.

Would've liked to keep Chi-Chi on the battlefield, even if she only chose to because she wanted to help protect Gohan.

Launch never formally met Vegeta. I would like to change that. There's ssj-related humor there.
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Re: What would you change about the series?

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:37 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Everyone in the Android and Cell arc would have a brain.
I'll drink to that!

As for what changes I'd make, some of the usual stuff like give the non Saiyan's power ups or techniques to keep them combatively viable. I'd also totally nerf the Saiyan's growth rate so they're not at least 10 times stronger than Freeza by the time the Cell Games start. I'd also change that Goku was the one who killed Gero's son during his many battle against the Red Ribbon Army, explaining his deep hatred for Goku and have him deal with the fact all the Android stuff is his fault for being a dumbass years prior.
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Re: What would you change about the series?

Post by FortuneSSJ » Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:15 pm

Lack of consequence.
I would kill some good guys and leave them stay dead forever.
A world without Dragon Ball is just boring.

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Re: What would you change about the series?

Post by Cipher » Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:31 pm

Shit, I don't know.

All the characters would be ducks, probably.

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Re: What would you change about the series?

Post by voltlunok » Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:48 pm

Cipher wrote:Shit, I don't know.

All the characters would be ducks, probably.
I'd...I'd watch that. I don't know why but I'd watch that. It'd be the most beautiful train wreck ever...
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Re: What would you change about the series?

Post by Absolute Ice » Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:03 pm

Cipher wrote:All the characters would be ducks, probably.
Well, you already have a character named like that... All hail Barduck. :P
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Re: What would you change about the series?

Post by MajinMan » Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:09 pm

Hunt for the Dragon Balls

- Nothing(More like I can't think of anything)


21st Tenkaichi Budokai

- Have Yamcha put up a better fight vs Jackie Chun.
- Make the Goku and Krillin training session a bit longer.


Red Ribbon Army

- Do muscle tower right. This part of the series drags and I personally don't like it that much. Make the rooms more colorful and interactive or something.
- Cut a lot of the General Blue stuff out. He overstayed his welcome.
- Make the Baba fights better. Most were boring except for like 2.


22nd Tenkaichi Budokai

- Have Goku lose some other way. The physics don't make any sense.


Piccolo Daimao

- Make the arc longer. I felt that as soon as Piccolo took over it ended way too quick.
- Have Tenshinhan beat Drum but barely.


23rd Tenkaichi Budokai

- Make Chi Chi do something other than just become Goku's bride.
- Have the Tenshinhan vs Goku fight go by quicker


Saiyan

- Give some more Piccolo and Gohan time to make the death even more impactful
- Raditz isn't Goku's brother. There is no point for him to be his brother other than shock factor. He's never mentioned again.


Freeza

- Make the world more diverse.
- Freeza fight is way too long, cut that shit in half.


Cell

- Give Gohan more to do. Let him see the Androids and fight them. You can't just have him sit in the ROSAT and whine constantly about Cell saying he's going to beat him and call it development, especially since he becomes a pacifist later on.
- Cut Vegeta's ego. He gets extremely annoying.
- Cell becomes a bitch every time he's losing, make it so that he has a backup plan and finds a way to absorb 18 without begging Vegeta to let him like a pussy.


Buu

- I hate the way Gohan goes down in this arc. Make him lose to Buutenks but eventually find a way to win with the help of Goku and Vegeta.
- Give Videl some more to do after the Tenkaichi Budokai.
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Re: What would you change about the series?

Post by B » Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:16 pm

It's a hard question, because everything informs everything. There's a real domino effect to just getting rid of characters or plot points you don't like... So I'll just excise an entire arc; the Freeza arc. Vegeta and Nappa work for themselves(which is pretty much what is happening already anyway; thank you "writes-for-the-week" Toriyama). Piccolo doesn't die in the Saiyan fight, and hunt for the DBs commences after a wounded Vegeta scurries off to lick his wounds. Super Saiyans don't exist and the power scale doesn't creep out of control. This leads us into the Cell arc where I don't think much has to change; everyone just puts up a slightly better fight. Same for the Buu arc. Instead of showing off transformations that only exist so the artist doesn't have to spend time inking everyone's black hair, there's much more focus hand-to-hand combat.

Thinking on it now, the Freeza arc is just kind of one big filler story. The only lasting plot details it leaves behind in its wake are Super Saiyans and Vegeta's softening up. You can write around those pretty easily; Cell and Buu didn't care about Super Saiyans and Piccolo didn't need a tyrant squashing him to switch sides.

Looking at the bigger picture and scope of the franchise, and why I prefer the earlier material... I don't know. I guess it is less personal now. You sort of can't get upset at Toei for the movies being a series of "big guy shows up to fight for no good reason, and then becomes bigger guy" because Toriyama is the one upping the ante to those ridiculous heights in the source material. On one hand, it's absolutely bonkers that he's been able to gradually raise the stakes in a believable manner, from space to Gods in heaven to other universes. But that comes at the cost of shirking everything else, like weaker characters who don't really have a role to play. It's a waiting game for Goku to come to the rescue while he's conveniently tied up somewhere. The story really isn't about Goku anymore and hasn't been for a long time. He's stuck in this cycle where he can't develop or grow, and for awhile Toriyama could buoy that with peripheral characters growing and maturing because of Goku(Bulma, Tenshinhan, Vegeta, etc.) and now you have neo-DB supplementing the development of the secondary characters with more gags and humor, almost as if to say there isn't anything else you need to know about Krillin or Trunks or whoever, so just kick your feet up and watch lovable characters you're nostalgic for do silly stuff. And that's entertaining for a while, but can feel empty and fleeting. Maybe Toriyama prefers it that way, being the unattached, no-messages-allowed franchise curator he is. Maybe if we must ask ourselves "what would we change?" then that means we're not as huge fans as we believed we were?

Or, as Cipher said, ducks. Ducks are good. The King of the World can be a dog pretending it's a duck to sway political favor.
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