"Captain" Nappa...?

LegendarySSJ7 · Post by **LegendarySSJ7** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:13 pm

aarondirebear wrote:4,000 is a mistake, otherwise Gokuu would have tooled Nappa without Kaiouken. Gokuu uses it as a last resort because 8,000 (his maximum burst battle strength without Kaiouken) wasn't enough, so he had to go with Kaiouken level 1 (which multiplies your battle strength by 1.5).

And if Saban had been right, Gokuw ould also not have needed the kaiouken because he would be "over 1,000" more than the Japanese version.

That's no place near correct as it's stated in even Volume 20 / 4 of the Manga by the Narrator that Goku was "doubling his strength through the Kaio-Ken", at that verbatim. Nappa gets thoroughly owned and abashed by Goku (who toyed with him in a way that isn't a length away from the way he toyed with most of the Ginyu Force, outside of Captain Ginyu [who Goku would have had to have used Kaio-ken to deal away with] and Gurd [already dead]).

Nappa, then, subsequently reaches full power and fights Goku to a stand-still until Goku flares up his own Kaio-ken aura as Nappa makes the attempt at rushing at Kuririn and Gohan for a sating kill. The resulting events speak for themselves as Goku practically manhandles him severely in a window of time (to the degree at which he needed Vegeta's help to even reach up); I can't see Nappa receiving a beatdown on that level unless Goku was at least twice that of his full base power level in question through the run-in-the-mill Kaio-ken.

As for the original thread's subject of discussion... The Captain of the Saiyan Army was a dubline (or stemming from anime filler material dialogue), no less, in my recollection.

aarondirebear · Post by **aarondirebear** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:21 pm

The saiya-jin cant raise their battle powers, or lower them for that matter.
Nappa only has one power level.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:30 pm

Then please explain why Nappa went from having no aura at all, to having an aura filled with lightning-like bolts flowing through it right before fighting everyone.

Also explain why Nappa said, "So what can you tell... from this.......?!" to Goku, when he "didn't" just power up to try to stand a better chance against him. I mean, he does only have one power level...

Oh yeah, and explain why Nappa suddenly went from not being able to come close to touching Goku to actually making his sweat and making Vegeta astonished he could block Nappa's blast when he was so close to him, when he didn't even raise his power level. I mean, Goku only said "Yeah. That's much better" because Nappa didn't increase in power enough to be ale to come close to matching Goku, correct?

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:51 pm

aarondirebear wrote:The saiya-jin cant raise their battle powers, or lower them for that matter.

I certainly never saw Gokû doing that!

aarondirebear · Post by **aarondirebear** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:06 am

Then explain why Vegeta, Nappa and Radditzu were surprised when the scouter readings changed.

Explain why the "Earthling" technique of "raising battle powers" was so "alien" to Furiza's men, with only Captain Ginyu having heard of it before.

Everyone else was surprised by the ability and relied on the initial scouter reading.

Therefore, Nappa and Vegeta, on Earth, had to have had static battle strengths.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:29 am

aarondirebear wrote:Then explain why Vegeta, Nappa and Radditzu were surprised when the scouter readings changed.

They hadn't learned how to do that yet.

Explain why the "Earthling" technique of "raising battle powers" was so "alien" to Furiza's men, with only Captain Ginyu having heard of it before.

Well, it was "alien" (but Ginew wasn't the only one to know about it). They explain that only a few races can do that. 'Looks like Earthlings and Saiyans can (and it seems most Saiyans simply didn't know about it themselves, conveniently enough).

Therefore, Nappa and Vegeta, on Earth, had to have had static battle strengths.

For the "Saiyans as enemies", I agree (although they do appear to "power-up", sometimes). I just thought the way you put it was funny, that's all. ^^

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:35 am

aarondirebear wrote:Then explain why Vegeta, Nappa and Radditzu were surprised when the scouter readings changed.

Sure, maybe Raditz, but Nappa and Vegeta are shown to power up. There is no hiding that.

Explain why the "Earthling" technique of "raising battle powers" was so "alien" to Furiza's men, with only Captain Ginyu having heard of it before.

We're talking about Nappa and Vegeta.

Everyone else was surprised by the ability and relied on the initial scouter reading.

Therefore, Nappa and Vegeta, on Earth, had to have had static battle strengths.

Nappa and Vegeta couldn't supress their power. That's what Vegeta said he learned to Kiwi.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:47 am

Tyro wrote:Nappa and Vegeta couldn't supress their power. That's what Vegeta said he learned to Kiwi.

Actually, he just said that he had learned how to control his power level, which is bit more ambiguous.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:13 am

Checking the manga, the actual word he used was "conceal."

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:20 am

Checking the original manga, the actual word he used was "control" ("kontoro-ru").

Maphisto86 · Post by **Maphisto86** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:41 am

My guess is that Nappa was barely trying against our heroes until he got pissed off. Doing that and hiding your power level are two different things. I don't think that "powering up" like Nappa and Vegeta did on Earth was the same as the amount of control over the flow of ki the fighters of Earth had. Vegeta, Nappa, and the other fighters in Freeza's forces did power up on certain occasions but perhaps this was simply a temporary boost in power rather than another level of power like the Z senshi. Vegeta learned of this technique on Earth just like he learned the ability to sense power levels and the kienzan attack (it occurs to me that saiyans seem to be fast learners just by seeing a technique being done).

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:51 am

Olivier Hague wrote:Checking the original manga, the actual word he used was "control" ("kontoro-ru").

Considering I myself know nothing about the Japanese language, I'm going to take Viz's word for it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that I don't own any of the Japanese volumes, and Viz is an official company. Hope you understand.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:11 am

Tyro wrote:Considering I myself know nothing about the Japanese language, I'm going to take Viz's word for it.

Er... "Control". I mean... That's not even a Japanese word to begin with. ^^;

I'm not saying you're wrong

Well... Kinda?
Unless you actually think I simply made it up, which would be even worse... ^^;
Either way, you're saying you don't trust me. Correct? ^^;

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:39 am

"Kontoro-ru" then.

If that's how you want to put it.

I'm just saying I don't know Japanese at all, don't have a scan of the Japanese dialog, and even if I did, I don't have a translator of any kind (besides Google or another run of the mill translator, but lets be honest, they're not good). So, I'm just going to go with an official company's translations. I'm not saying what you've translated couldn't be 100% correct, I'm saying I have no way of finding out if it is or not.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:38 am

Tyro isn't saying you're wrong or right, Oliver. He's just giving reason to his previous statement.

I'm amused we had a little power-level splurge in this thread (and Lss7 posted. Awesome.) but hopefully we can all get away from that. I would hate to see this thread completely hijacked.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:09 am

Duo wrote:Tyro isn't saying you're wrong or right, Oliver.

Well, he's saying I might be wrong (or lying, I guess). ^^;
Not that I really have a problem with that: he doesn't know me, and it's not like he has to trust me on this one. But... Well, he should. ^^;

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

Duo wrote:I'm amused we had a little power-level splurge in this thread (and Lss7 posted. Awesome.) but hopefully we can all get away from that. I would hate to see this thread completely hijacked.

I was ready to make your day, Duo..

Wasn't this thread necroposted then turned into a mini-power level discussion..?

-Rick

Pieter · Post by **Pieter** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:57 am

Didn't Nappa take off his Saiyan armor which hit the ground with great force? If he was training with weighted clothes it means he gained even more strength. I still think Nappa had a maximum of 4000 though, he was scared to death when he heard goku was at 5000.

Akira · Post by **Akira** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:04 pm

Hey, I have to add a couple of things.

The saiyans (Nappa and Vegeta at the very least) could raise thier battle powers easily. Nothing ever said they couldn't power up. What they couldn't do, nor could could any of Freeza's men do, was SUPRESS thier battle power. That is what astounded Vegeta about Goku, Krillin, Piccolo and Gohan. They could supress thier battle power to less than what thier base battle power was. THAT was something Nappa and Vegeta were incapable of, as was the ability to sense battle powers.

Nappa's base battle power was 4000, but when he powered up, he most certainly went higher. He just couldn't go lower than 4000, that much is true, unless he was beaten or something. Goku made a fool of him, yes, but then he powered up to his max of 8000 and was matching Goku toe to toe. Remember he blasts Goku with a mouth blast and Goku barely manages a swift Kamehameha to counteract it and say something to the affect of almost getting blow away by that if he hadn't reacted as fast as he did. Only something the same battle power as him or close to it could beat him.

Now, on the matter of Kaioken. There is no such thing as "Kaioken x1"

1x1=1, simple math. That whole "1.5" nonsense is just that, some fan perpetuated myth that has seeped around the internet for years.

Let me explain Kaioken. There is a "Basic" Kaioken if you will that you theoretically could call "Kaioken x1". It is a white aura, and basically is the learning phase of the technique. It is a visable aura that pushes thier power outward. This was as far as North Kaio (Or "King Kai" if you prefer) was ever able to get with the technique. He knew if he were stronger he could use the move to double his strength, but he was unable to get anywhere with the move he had developed. In one of the early episodes, the recap of the previous episodes shows a scene exclusive to that recap of North Kaio demonstrating the basic Kaioken with Goku following and doing the same thing. They are using it to zip around the small planet at amazing speeds and using thier power aura to blow through small brick walls as training.

Goku was able to do what North Kaio envisioned for the technique, take it a step further and double his battle power in an instant.

Anytime Goku yells "KAI-O-KEN!" and the red aura flares up, that is the main "Kaioken x2". Anytime he uses it without announcing anything higher, up to and including the fight with Commander Ginyu, it is a Kaioken x2. He is using the main move to double his battle power.

He uses a Kaioken x3 to match Vegeta's battle power during thier first confrontation, and Vegeta surpasses that with his powered up max during the Gallick-ho / Kamehamaha beam struggle. Goku has to use a Kaioken x4 to quadruple his strength to overpower Vegeta and win the beam battle.

Other higher uses are when he is fighting Freeza. Goku uses a Kaioken x10 to match Freeza at 25% power, and then a desperate Kaioken x20 after Freeza almost drowns him to match Freeza at 50% power. It was when Freeza went to 75% that Goku realized he didn't stand a chance. But up until then, Goku was maintaining the same battle power as Freeza by use of Kaioken during the battle. Goku at Kaioken x10 = Freeza at 25% power and Goku at Kaioken x20 = Freeza at 50% power.

After that, had he not become a Super Saiyan, it would have been over for him. Kaioken x20 was his desperation limit at that point, as Kaioken x4 had been his limit against Vegeta.

Hope that helps give you a better idea of how Kaioken works. It is my favorite technique in the entire dragonball series, so I have learned a lot about it.

Pieter · Post by **Pieter** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:35 am

Nappa's base battle power was 4000, but when he powered up, he most certainly went higher. He just couldn't go lower than 4000, that much is true, unless he was beaten or something. Goku made a fool of him, yes, but then he powered up to his max of 8000 and was matching Goku toe to toe. Remember he blasts Goku with a mouth blast and Goku barely manages a swift Kamehameha to counteract it and say something to the affect of almost getting blow away by that if he hadn't reacted as fast as he did. Only something the same battle power as him or close to it could beat him.

Even if he did go higher than his base power you don't know if he actually doubled it (that's insane) and if this would make his battle rating 4000 or 8000. Yes Goku did have to counterattack Nappa's strongest attack, and noted that he would be 'in trouble' if he took a direct hit. However he counter-attacked it from a very short distance (it amazes Vegeta) and even hurts Nappa with it.

Nappa didn't power up three times as people assumed in this thread. He powered up after the Saibamen got killed. The 'power-up' during the battle with Goku isn't a power-up at all. It lasts a couple of seconds and then he fires a ki-blast. He was probably just gathering energy for this blast. He does power-up after Vegeta tells him to stop acting like a brainless monkey and get himself together. Goku even tells him he improved a lot, however, we don't know what kind of a power-up it was. Maybe he was just regaining control over his Ki. After all the last time he powered-up was before he cut Tenshinhan's arm. There's even a break between that where they are waiting for Kakarot. And even if he powers-up, we could still say he powers up to 4000.

We don't know much about Vegeta's and Nappa's power up. When else do we see fighters do this who are said to not have the ability to manipulate their rating? Vegeta powers up while Fighting Goku. It stuns Goku, but was he able to sense this power before the power-up? Let's not forget Kui Vs. Vegeta. Frieza's henchmen knew that his power matched Kui's. Kui even notes that Vegeta 'Isn't as strong as he used to be', and this guy doesn't power-up. They are amazed when Vegeta manages to raise his battle power for the first time.

I like your kaioken explanation. I remember seeing the recap and asking myself why it wasn't used in one of the training episodes (too bad). It was used again though, when Goku explains the Kaioken to Gohan and Krillin. The only problem with your theory is that you have no way to explain Kaioken x2, which Goku uses against Vegeta as well. If Kaioken x1 doubles his strength, and Kaioken x3 triples it, what should Kaioken x2 do?

Kanzenshuu

"Captain" Nappa...?

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