Cell Saga Vegeta

[DBZAOTA482]

Vegeta's attitude in the Cell Saga is very often used as a criticism by some for why the saga isn't very good- considering him a "whiny idiot" in contrast to his more "cunning and intelligent" Namek Saga. For example, many have felt his decision to let Cell become perfect (along with Krillin's refusal to shut down #18) was nothing more than a contrivance to move the plot forward. I personally disagree on that notion but...

Anyways, do you like him?

[ekrolo2]

Vegeta's the only one who's idiocy I don't have a problem with. Vegeta has always been in-tune more with his Saiyan side and him acquiring Super Saiyan likely affected these traits by a lot, brining out the worst his worst tendencies to the forefront. Its everyone else' way of thinking that make me facepalm these days.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Vegeta is pretty much a complete dumbass in the arc, but that doesn't mean his portrayal doesn't make sense. It's a perfectly valid progression of his character up to that point. Though, being logical doesn't mean I like it. He's one of the worst parts of the arc between the point of his defeat of 19 and his rage scene when Trunks dies IMO.

[LuckyCat]

I used to hate Vegeta for letting Cell absorb #18, but after rereading/watching the arc numerous times, I've come to the conclusion Vegeta was acting in character. For example, in the beginning of Android arc, Bulma makes a suggestion to remove Dr. Gero and try to eliminate any problems without fighting. Vegeta's reaction to this is probably the most extreme, but it establishes that he prefers a good fight even if it means putting others at risk.

I suppose you could argue that Vegeta was less like this in Freeza saga, but then you need to factor in the ego boost he got from finally becoming a Super Saiyan, which he was chasing most of that saga.

[fadeddreams5]

In the Namek saga, he acknowledged he was no match for his most powerful enemies. He devised ways to beat them in the dragon ball hunt so he could wish for immortality. If he did so, he'd be EXACTLY how he is in the Cell saga. In the Cell saga, he feels he's much stronger than everyone in the universe after achieving his lifelong dream and becoming a SSJ, but he's proven wrong time and again.

This is Vegeta at his best. lol.

[Kamiccolo9]

Vegeta was totally in-character. I just happen to dislike that character.

Unfortunately, everybody else was holding the idiot-ball as well.

[IDreamtIWasABee]

The Vegeta who was resurrected on Namek, considering the implications of Goku being the SSJ, shows us a much more interesting direction the character could have gone in.

[Gaffer Tape]

Vegeta was one of the worst parts of that arc, although, as has been said, everyone gets the Idiot Ball at one point or another. The problem is, once Vegeta get it, he screams, "MINE! MINE! MINE!" and refuses to let go of it.

Something I only just thought of this morning was what a stark contrast this Vegeta was to his Saiyan arc counterpart. Saiyan arc Vegeta was still sure of himself and his superiority. In fact, he threatened to blow up the planet when Goku started shedding his noble blood. But he was no fool. When Goku was approaching with a battle power of 5,000, less than a third of his own, Vegeta demanded swift, pragmatic action. He knew Goku's BP would only get higher, and combined with the other three, would be something of a problem. So he put aside his satisfying plans of humiliation and vengeance and told Nappa to just start killing people before Goku showed up.

Cell arc Vegeta would never have taken such an action. He would have dug in his heels, folded his arms, given a characteristic, "Hmph!", and insisted that no one could ever beat him. And if anyone had even suggested the kind of course of action Saiyan arc Vegeta would have taken, Cell arc Vegeta would probably have beaten the crap out of them for even suggesting he needed help.

It's consistent with the stubborn, illogical, idiotic Saiyan traits Toriyama was developing across the board at the time. But I don't see those traits as consistently in-character to what either Goku or Vegeta had been up until then.

[Gyt Kaliba]

I certainly don't feel that Vegeta is out of character in the arc...if anything, he's so in character for where he is at that time, that that's exactly why I can't stand him.

There's a lot of stupid decisions made in the Cell arc, yes. And from an out of universe perspective, I'm able to forgive most of them - Trunks can't exactly tell Goku about the right Androids when originally there were only the two in the first place, and more on point, Vegeta has to fail to take Cell down in some form or another, because you can't exactly tease us about his Perfect form from the beginning of his introduction and not end up showing it to us. And even going back to an in universe perspective, I'm able to cope with Kuririn's decisions towards #18 a lot better with the knowledge we have of his character arc, plus the fact that 17 and 18 were both not as bad as originally made out to be (whether that fact in of itself is an asspull, is entirely up to each individual, though). I admit I'm probably more than a little biased in the case of Kuririn though.

Vegeta though? Any slight enjoyment I get out of the character in previous arcs pretty much goes out the window once the Androids/Cell material starts, and it doesn't really get much better early in the Boo arc either. In the Saiyan arc, he's an effective villain, and sets a pretty great final battle for Goku just in theme alone - the whole 'hard-working failure versus born elite' theme - even before you get to the great fight we get. He's also a villain to the core at that point, so anything that he does is far more acceptable to me as I watch/read, because he's evil - of course he does horrible things. In the Freeza arc, we get a Vegeta that's a bit more tactical and smart, because he knows in no uncertain terms that he's not the hot shit he once thought of himself as - not only is he still unable to beat Freeza, he's been shown up by a low-class member of his own race to boot. His approach of hiding in the shadows because of this helps balance out his usual 'I AM THE BEST' attitude that I find so grating, helping tone it down enough that I can still deal with him better. This is again helped by the fact that he's still very much a villain at this point in time. He's working with the heroes, but only because it's in the self interest of both parties, and he doesn't have near as quick of a turn around as Piccolo did about it.

In the Cell arc though, Vegeta is for the most part beginning to be treated as a hero. What reason besides his ego does he really have to stay and fight the Androids? The only reason he cares about them in the first place is because of the part of Trunks' story that mentions him getting killed by them too. If he really wanted to he could just fight Goku, either win or lose, and that be the end of it. Neither Trunks nor Bulma are really a reason for him to stay, since he pretty clearly doesn't care about them at any point towards the end of the arc - heck, I'd make the argument he only started to care for Bulma after growing attached to Trunks during their year/day of training together. So it all boils down to his only reason for even being involved at this point is his ego...and it's that ego that makes him so unbelievably annoying to me.

As the arc goes on, he gets to show that ego in all it's glory too. Despite knowing that the Androids killed him in the future, and knowing that both Gohan (in the future) and Trunks haven't been able to beat them either, he automatically makes the assumption that his becoming a Super Saiyan as well means this is going to be easy. He then rightfully gets knocked down and starts his usual 'b-but I'm supposed to be the best!' ranting. He's done it in both of the previous arcs, but here it bothers me more, because the story has again already started to kind of paint him on the side of the heroes even when he's definitely not. We're expected to empathize with his plight to a bit, but I just...I really can't. Then he trains more and gets strong enough to be able to take down Cell's second form with ease...and he makes the decision to let him get stronger, just for the hell of it really. It's perfectly fine from a story telling point of view - I'd feel pretty gypped if we didn't even get to see Cell's final form after all that talk about it, but maybe that's just me - but it still doesn't make me any more endeared to Vegeta as a character for it. And all of this is still with the story telling us that he's technically a hero now...kinda...sorta...well, he's fighting the villains that he has no history with so he must be...right!

I'll also admit that a part of my distaste might be coming from bias (or...would it be anti-bias?) I feel from Vegeta, despite these transgressions and more to come in the following arc, gets a lot more love than other characters, simply because he's strong - or at least that's how it seems to be a lot of the time. I get the appeal of the 'bad boy' hero, I love Wolverine just as much as anyone - but when I see Vegeta get heralded as this great character with reasons like his strength being listed, while other characters get dismissed simply for the plot placing them lower on the food chain...it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Guess this turned a bit more of a rant on Vegeta in general, but the long and short of it is no, I definitely don't care much for the guy, particularly in the Cell arc.

[fadeddreams5]

We're expected to empathize with his plight to a bit, but I just...I really can't.

Are we though? I sure as hell never could.

I like Cell saga Vegeta because everything revolving around him is so unintentionally funny, especially in the dub. TFS perfectly capitalizes on this. Him making all those android puns and acting so cocky, only to get his arm broken by a girl. Him getting blasted away by Trunks like Team Rocket. And this... this scene right here is... gold:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzwPMFve_oQ

The smug look on Goku's face; Vegeta randomly breaking into a monologue literally WHILE he's in the middle of this interaction; and the dub lines. Just...gold.

[DarkPrince_92]

I figure the more SSJ he got, the bigger his ego got. Self-confidence got the best of him. "This is my time to shine...CRAP!" - Vegeta Cell Arc.

[Ringworm128]

I used to think Vegeta was dumb in the Cell arc, until it struck me how dumb Trunks is. "I've spent my whole life in hell and I could stop it from happening to this world but I'm going to wait until Cell is perfect and Vegeta is knocked out before I do something because I don't want daddy to be upset."

Seriously if he had transformed when Cell was still semi perfect he could have curb stomped him even if he was lacking in speed. Sure Vegeta might be upset but is his ego more important than something you traveled through time to fix? And Vegeta had already been humiliated tons of times, he'd get over it.

[Soppa Saia People]

Like most characters in the Cell arc I think he was exposed to this for to long. Anyway he was (mostly) in character.

Vegeta was one of the worst parts of that arc, although, as has been said, everyone gets the Idiot Ball at one point or another. The problem is, once Vegeta get it, he screams, "MINE! MINE! MINE!" and refuses to let go of it.

Something I only just thought of this morning was what a stark contrast this Vegeta was to his Saiyan arc counterpart. Saiyan arc Vegeta was still sure of himself and his superiority. In fact, he threatened to blow up the planet when Goku started shedding his noble blood. But he was no fool. When Goku was approaching with a battle power of 5,000, less than a third of his own, Vegeta demanded swift, pragmatic action. He knew Goku's BP would only get higher, and combined with the other three, would be something of a problem. So he put aside his satisfying plans of humiliation and vengeance and told Nappa to just start killing people before Goku showed up.

Cell arc Vegeta would never have taken such an action. He would have dug in his heels, folded his arms, given a characteristic, "Hmph!", and insisted that no one could ever beat him. And if anyone had even suggested the kind of course of action Saiyan arc Vegeta would have taken, Cell arc Vegeta would probably have beaten the crap out of them for even suggesting he needed help.

It's consistent with the stubborn, illogical, idiotic Saiyan traits Toriyama was developing across the board at the time. But I don't see those traits as consistently in-character to what either Goku or Vegeta had been up until then.

100% agreed.

[Doctor.]

It's consistent with the stubborn, illogical, idiotic Saiyan traits Toriyama was developing across the board at the time. But I don't see those traits as consistently in-character to what either Goku or Vegeta had been up until then.

It's certainly consistent if you keep in mind that these new traits Vegeta exhibited in the Cell arc originated from his new-found confidence after achieving the 'legendary' Super Saiyan transformation, when he had lost it all against Freeza a few years back. It's character progression, it just doesn't make his character any more likable.

[ekrolo2]

It's consistent with the stubborn, illogical, idiotic Saiyan traits Toriyama was developing across the board at the time. But I don't see those traits as consistently in-character to what either Goku or Vegeta had been up until then.

It's certainly consistent if you keep in mind that these new traits Vegeta exhibited in the Cell arc originated from his new-found confidence after achieving the 'legendary' Super Saiyan transformation, when he had lost it all against Freeza a few years back. It's character progression, it just doesn't make his character any more likable.

Shame there really isn't an excuse for any of the others. I even find Goku being so gun ho hard to buy since he Krillin died last time a Freeza level opponent showed up but neither he nor Krillin himself seem to be bothered by that at all.

[Doctor.]

Shame there really isn't an excuse for any of the others. I even find Goku being so gun ho hard to buy since he Krillin died last time a Freeza level opponent showed up but neither he nor Krillin himself seem to be bothered by that at all.

I think you're focusing on the wrong part of the sentence. He said he wanted to fight the androids yes, but he also said he didn't want to kill Gero because he hadn't done anything bad yet (which, admittedly, is a stupid reasoning, but hey, it's Goku). This goes well with how he turned more into a hero in the Namek arc and pretty much fits that mold in the Cell arc.

I don't think kid Goku would pass on the opportunity to kill Gero after everything he did to the RRA and vice-versa.

[ekrolo2]

Shame there really isn't an excuse for any of the others. I even find Goku being so gun ho hard to buy since he Krillin died last time a Freeza level opponent showed up but neither he nor Krillin himself seem to be bothered by that at all.

I think you're focusing on the wrong part of the sentence. He said he wanted to fight the androids yes, but he also said he didn't want to kill Gero because he hadn't done anything bad yet (which, admittedly, is a stupid reasoning, but hey, it's Goku). This goes well with how he turned more into a hero in the Namek arc and pretty much fits that mold in the Cell arc.

I don't think kid Goku would pass on the opportunity to kill Gero after everything he did to the RRA and vice-versa.

That's the problem, Goku as a 13 year old has better judgment than 26 year old Goku. The guy everyone constantly props up as older and wiser except not really if you actually think about it. I just hate the whole idea that because he's generally shown as kind of thick automatically means he can't ever grow out of it or think something through right at least once in a while.

[Doctor.]

He grew kinder, though.

[ekrolo2]

He grew kinder, though.

If that actually served as his reasoning for why he does some of his decision making such as letting Gero live because he thinks he can redeem him like Piccolo or Tien, I think that would actually work as an excuse for his dumb actions somewhat as he'd them as evidence to get his point across. The thing is its not, he just wants to fight shit consequences be damned. And after spending so much time around other people I really just don't buy Goku being up his own ass after so many years, it just feels like an excuse to pad stuff out for later. Where's the Goku from EoZ who takes up Uub as his apprentice so the Earth can have a protector for the future? I wanna see more of that guy.

But I've derailed the thread enough as is, don't want to get into trouble with the mods.

[Gyt Kaliba]

The thing is though, Goku not wanting to kill Gero before he's actually done anything is - or is at least presented as such...or...would be if DB really focused on that kind of thing... - a bit more of a moral quandary then Vegeta letting Cell become complete.

Goku is right that Gero hasn't really 'done anything' yet, at least to his knowledge (or anyone's, seeing as we wouldn't find out about 17 and 18 being altered humans instead of completely artificial until after the fact), so going to find him and kill him pre-emptively, even if it's to stop all the death and destruction he's going to set in motion, would be a bit wrong. Now, Goku's not exactly a moral paragon obviously, but I bring this up more from a real world perspective - even with Goku being a little ambiguous in nature as to whether he's a 'hero' or not, and even with Jump allowing a lot of things, there might have been some concerns if the story wanted to have Goku just find out where a normal old man lives and offs him.

Not to mention that, again, from a story telling perspective if we were to find out about these Androids that are so tough that even Super Saiyans can't beat them only to never actually get to see them, that'd be a bit disappointing. Unlike with Vegeta letting Cell go though, Goku's decision is passed over much more quickly, and they automatically have a plan to take care of the decisions anyway - they'll train and get stronger and stop the Androids. And that plan, at least up until the android switchout, technically worked. Vegeta's 'plan' though was just 'I'm already so awesome it doesn't even matter'...and then he falls flat on his face.