Kid Goku GT vs. SSGSS Goku?

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

ssj2 vegeta-4.5 (I honestly think in super ssj2 vegeta>ssj3 Goku based on how he did vs kid buu+how much better he did vs Beerus then Goku)

Based on what he did against Pure Buu? Vegeta managed to fire one blast that blew Buu's lower body away, and then pelted him with ki blasts for a few seconds before he became Buu's punching bag. From the moment that Buu landed his first blow on Vegeta, the "battle" went completely one sided, with Vegeta not being able to land a single blow or defend himself at all from Buu's attacks.

It was only after Vegeta's rage boost that Beerus considered Vegeta's fight against him more fun than what he experienced on Kaiou's planet with Goku, suggesting that, prior to that, Vegeta wasn't at a point where he could have come close to Goku.

The fact generic ki blasts when he wasn't even in ssj2 o even 1 was able to almost kill someone above ultimate gohan proves he's under rated. Kid buu was cheap,he was fighting a vegeta not at his best even if you only talk about the manga where he fights less and still amost died. if vegeta got a second shot on buu before he healed,buu would be dead.

[Kamiccolo9]

When did Vegeta almost kill Buu?

[Speedster]

Not sure if mentioned before but why do most guys here think that the GT perfect files would refer to the Vegetto we saw in the Buu arc (that took place 15 years before the GT timeline and ever since Goku’s base became higher than kid Buu’s)? Why not a hypothetical GT Vegetto – the fusion of GT Goku and GT Vegeta? In other words be the comparison of potara fusion versus turning SSJ4.

Comparison against Manga Vegetto
Given that having 2x higher power level the difference in strength is massive and given than in the manga base Vegetto never fought Buuhan (only Super Vegetto did) I would say that
Base Vegetto=100xbase Goku.
Super Vegetto=50xbase Vegetto=5000xbase Goku
SSJ4 Goku=4000x base Goku

So GT Super Vegetto>GT SSJ4 Goku ... BUT GT SSJ4 Goku> Z SSJ1/SSJ2/SSJ3 Vegetto

Comparison against Anime Vegetto
In the anime though base Vegetto was even stronger than Buuhan (who was stronger than SSJ3 Goku). Well I would say this:
Anime Z Base Vegetto= 25xSSJ3Goku=10,000xbase Z Goku (i.e.100x stronger than in the manga)
Anime Z Super Vegetto=500,000x base Z Goku.
Anime SSJ3 Z Vegetto=8x SSJ1 Anime Z Vegetto=2millionxbase Z Goku.
Base GT Goku=400x base Z Goku
GT SSJ4 Goku=4000x base GT=1.6millionx base Z Goku

So GT SSJ4 Goku >Anime Z SSJ1 Vegetto but Anime Z SSJ3 Vegetto> GT SSJ4 Goku (baby saga)

The 10% statement from Beerus is more in line with fusion being 100xbase Goku than 10,000x. Besides we don’t know whether Gogeta=Vegetto. And please, please, PLEASE people stop mentioning that Vegetto=Goku*Vegeta in terms of power levels. That is WRONG. Yes the Super Exciting guide said so on page 63 but it was very clearly referring to the newly introduced performance charts numbers in pages 43-58 under the same training section chapter. It was a multiplication of those numbers (the collection of star points), NOT the power levels it referred to. There is nothing more pathetic than those people over the internet who using the Vegeta*Goku power level argument for Vegetto are making power level videos stating that SSJG Goku is in quintillions rendering power levels an even a more ridiculous concept than it already is.

[Blackstripe]

Current feats back up the Gods being far in excess of anything from GT, I feel it needs to be said.

So, I think it is painfully clear that SSGSS Gokuu is stronger than GT's Gokuu at any point. Even SSJ4 Gogeta never caused shockwaves to ripple across the universe, and Omega Shenron certainly didn't even though he wanted to destroy everything anyway and would have no reason to avoid doing so.

[dbgtFO]

Not sure if mentioned before but why do most guys here think that the GT perfect files would refer to the Vegetto we saw in the Buu arc (that took place 15 years before the GT timeline and ever since Goku’s base became higher than kid Buu’s)? Why not a hypothetical GT Vegetto – the fusion of GT Goku and GT Vegeta? In other words be the comparison of potara fusion versus turning SSJ4.

First of all the oft-cited statement comes from the chinese version of a GT anime comic. IIRC it has yet to be confirmed in a japanese equivalent and it's speculative, rather than definitive.
I agree with your interpretation, that it's not comparing Buu Arc Vegetto to GT SS4, but rather a merger of Vegeta and Goku being about the same level as going SS4.

So GT SSJ4 Goku >Anime Z SSJ1 Vegetto but Anime Z SSJ3 Vegetto> GT SSJ4 Goku (baby saga)

Some good calculations there and it sounds about right.

The 10% statement from Beerus is more in line with fusion being 100xbase Goku than 10,000x.

Yeah, it is hard to imagine Vegeta being multiple times stronger than Vegetto was, but it's unclear.

And please, please, PLEASE people stop mentioning that Vegetto=Goku*Vegeta in terms of power levels. That is WRONG. Yes the Super Exciting guide said so on page 63 but it was very clearly referring to the newly introduced performance charts numbers in pages 43-58 under the same training section chapter. It was a multiplication of those numbers (the collection of star points), NOT the power levels it referred to. There is nothing more pathetic than those people over the internet who using the Vegeta*Goku power level argument for Vegetto are making power level videos stating that SSJG Goku is in quintillions rendering power levels an even a more ridiculous concept than it already is.

You can take it up with the many japanese speakers here, but the text specifically mentions battle power.

Current feats back up the Gods being far in excess of anything from GT, I feel it needs to be said.

So, I think it is painfully clear that SSGSS Gokuu is stronger than GT's Gokuu at any point. Even SSJ4 Gogeta never caused shockwaves to ripple across the universe, and Omega Shenron certainly didn't even though he wanted to destroy everything anyway and would have no reason to avoid doing so.

Yes, by feats the SS Gods and Beerus and co. are stronger than GT characters.
But since Toei have yet to write GT out of existence and it's still treated as the continuation of DBZ, guess all this has to retroactively fit, even if it doesn't make much sense.

[Darkprince410]

The fact generic ki blasts when he wasn't even in ssj2 o even 1 was able to almost kill someone above ultimate gohan proves he's under rated. Kid buu was cheap,he was fighting a vegeta not at his best even if you only talk about the manga where he fights less and still amost died. if vegeta got a second shot on buu before he healed,buu would be dead.

Vegeta only fought Buu while in Ssj2 in the manga, and that's presuming a lot that if Vegeta got a second shot on Buu, it would have finished him. Vegeta's attack blowing away Buu's lower body means practically nothing, since we see Mr. Buu do essentially the same thing later on. Mr. Buu, who is less than half as powerful as the Fat Buu that Goku established he could have defeated had he wanted to.

Spoiler:

It doesn't take much to blow holes or blow portions off Buu, but that's not sufficient enough by any means to be able to actually kill him. So even though Vegeta managed to blow off Buu's lower body like that doesn't mean he had any capacity to actually finish Buu at all.

And please, please, PLEASE people stop mentioning that Vegetto=Goku*Vegeta in terms of power levels. That is WRONG. Yes the Super Exciting guide said so on page 63 but it was very clearly referring to the newly introduced performance charts numbers in pages 43-58 under the same training section chapter. It was a multiplication of those numbers (the collection of star points), NOT the power levels it referred to.

Battle power is specifically mentioned though. While I don't necessarily agree with it given some of the uncertainty with how it's written in the SEG, there's valid reason for why people refer to battle power in that context, because that's specifically what's mentioned.

Not sure if mentioned before but why do most guys here think that the GT perfect files would refer to the Vegetto we saw in the Buu arc (that took place 15 years before the GT timeline and ever since Goku’s base became higher than kid Buu’s)? Why not a hypothetical GT Vegetto – the fusion of GT Goku and GT Vegeta? In other words be the comparison of potara fusion versus turning SSJ4.

If you're referring to where the notion of Vegetto being Ssj4 Goku tier comes from, it's not the GT Perfect Files. It comes from a special Goku evolution section within anime comic adaptation of the Goku Jr. GT Special. The tense of the statements in the Vegetto blurb strongly suggest it's referring to when he already appeared, not a hypothetical fusion later on.

[Speedster]

Battle power is specifically mentioned though. While I don't necessarily agree with it given some of the uncertainty with how it's written in the SEG, there's valid reason for why people refer to battle power in that context, because that's specifically what's mentioned.

Yes but in the previous pages with the "star coins" there are 4 categories: Power, Speed, Stamina and Ki. And the power was supposedly power in battle aka battle power. Not battle power level as per the scouter measurements. The whole point of that SEG training section was to introduce that new performance charts - it would be incredibly absurd at the final page of the training section and out of the blue to revert into using the old school battle power levels.

[Blackstripe]

Yes, by feats the SS Gods and Beerus and co. are stronger than GT characters.

Then they're stronger.

But since Toei have yet to write GT out of existence and it's still treated as the continuation of DBZ, guess all this has to retroactively fit, even if it doesn't make much sense.

No, we really don't. It's just as (if not more) easy to say they're simply in two different timelines. Super does not have to reconcile itself with GT. GT didn't happen within Super's timeline.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

But remember buu is buu,not ssj2 gohan. Yeah he's weaker then Vegeta but he can shoot out like 12x his own power easily and then ust refil his nergy supply. Buus have a limited limitless amount of I. Even if they use 9% their power in a blast or lose 99% of their bodies all they have tdo is heal themselves and BOOM 100% again. They don't stay damaged or low on ki unless PIS steps in and buu forgets he has regeneration.

Piccolo made 2 attacks over 4x his power pow level while he was not at 100%. That was vs raditz after he was no doubt training all day. The Z fighters have more ki then their level of power.

Also there is no MR. Buu. That's a misconception that needs to go away. He's just as strong as he was vs Majin Vegeta. Most likely stronger since he is somehow able to fight o good against someone above mystic gohan. If gohan took either of those hits he's lose either an arm or half his body.

[Darkprince410]

But remember buu is buu,not ssj2 gohan. Yeah he's weaker then Vegeta but he can shoot out like 12x his own power easily and then ust refil his nergy supply. Buus have a limited limitless amount of I. Even if they use 9% their power in a blast or lose 99% of their bodies all they have tdo is heal themselves and BOOM 100% again. They don't stay damaged or low on ki unless PIS steps in and buu forgets he has regeneration.

A blast is a blast though, and there's no way he could have pumped out a blast stronger than he was without there being a mention or notion of it. By all accounts mentioned, Mr. Buu was always weaker than Pure Buu, and if there had been any kind of brief spike like you believe happened, someone would have said something. The simple reason that both Vegeta and Mr. Buu were capable of firing blasts that so easily took out chunks of Buu's body is because Buu isn't that hard to damage. We've seen spears penetrate his body and bullets pierce him like nothing (when bullets couldn't even pierce DB era Goku). It doesn't take much anything to damage him, but it takes a large amount of power to actually be able to erase his ki, which neither Vegeta nor Mr. Buu were strong enough to do.

Piccolo made 2 attacks over 4x his power pow level while he was not at 100%. That was vs raditz after he was no doubt training all day. The Z fighters have more ki then their level of power.

At a time before they showed any real capacity of rising or lowering their battle powers simply by "powering up". One can argue that the battle powers Goku and Piccolo had at the time (around a thousand) were their true levels of power, but they didn't have the skill to raise or lower their battle powers without

Also there is no MR. Buu. That's a misconception that needs to go away. He's just as strong as he was vs Majin Vegeta. Most likely stronger since he is somehow able to fight o good against someone above mystic gohan. If gohan took either of those hits he's lose either an arm or half his body.

No, that's not a misconception at all. That Buu that was fighting against Pure Buu was the same one that remained after the Fat Buu expelled the evil within him, resulting in a split in power which he received the smaller portion of. He is less than half as powerful as the Fat Buu that Goku readily fought against and claimed he had the capacity to beat. He's simply the good half of Buu that remained once all the evil within him was expelled.

Also, not to turn this into a "strongest Buu" debate, but Gohan is significantly stronger than Pure Buu is. It would have been an anticlimactic final "fight" if Gohan had been there in place of Goku, as he would have been able to destroy Pure Buu without any real effort whatsoever. Ssj3 Goku, Ssj2 Vegeta, and Mr. Buu aren't even remotely in the same range of power as Gohan was at that time.

[Gogetto]

Goku power down to SSJG, try to lose, and still stomps.

Spoiler:

Beerus and Goku endangered the Universe just by fighting. The closest character to be a Universe Buster is Omega Shenron, and even then, he can only manage it via chain reaction.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

Bullets hurt buu? When? I remember super buu grabbed a man's bullet with his flesh to mess with him,but bullets cant penetrate buu. there's never been any mention of buu being able to be hurt easily body wise. The whole point of him having to heal is because he's weaker. It's why gohan broke buu''s bones with his punches,why goku's Kamehameha went through fat buu and why vegeta took out half of buu several times in his base form. If dodoria had regeneration he wouldn't have lost to vegeta. buu regeneration anyways. also gohan cant even touch ssj2 goku,no way he can beat ssj3 goku or ssj2 vegeta. but this is all off topic.

ssj god goku is only like 30 x stronger give or take then ssj3 bog goku, but ssj3 kid goku is over 4,000 x stronger then end of Z goku.

[Kamiccolo9]

Bullets hurt buu? When? I remember super buu grabbed a man's bullet with his flesh to mess with him,but bullets cant penetrate buu. there's never been any mention of buu being able to be hurt easily body wise. The whole point of him having to heal is because he's weaker. It's why gohan broke buu''s bones with his punches,why goku's Kamehameha went through fat buu and why vegeta took out half of buu several times in his base form. If dodoria had regeneration he wouldn't have lost to vegeta. buu regeneration anyways. also gohan cant even touch ssj2 goku,no way he can beat ssj3 goku or ssj2 vegeta. but this is all off topic.

ssj god goku is only like 30 x stronger give or take then ssj3 bog goku, but ssj3 kid goku is over 4,000 x stronger then end of Z goku.

Buu's made of bubblegum. Physical durability doesn't apply to him unless he decides to make himself physically durable.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

Bullets hurt buu? When? I remember super buu grabbed a man's bullet with his flesh to mess with him,but bullets cant penetrate buu. there's never been any mention of buu being able to be hurt easily body wise. The whole point of him having to heal is because he's weaker. It's why gohan broke buu''s bones with his punches,why goku's Kamehameha went through fat buu and why vegeta took out half of buu several times in his base form. If dodoria had regeneration he wouldn't have lost to vegeta. buu regeneration anyways. also gohan cant even touch ssj2 goku,no way he can beat ssj3 goku or ssj2 vegeta. but this is all off topic.

ssj god goku is only like 30 x stronger give or take then ssj3 bog goku, but ssj3 kid goku is over 4,000 x stronger then end of Z goku.

Buu's made of bubblegum. Physical durability doesn't apply to him unless he decides to make himself physically durable.

In the manga it's more clear he's being shoot through but you either have to call that a plot hole like goku being shot through in ROF or he was suppressed to human level for a second to mess around with the guy, which adds to why he was laughing s hard. HE clearly got hit on purpose as he could have dodged them easily, I think a good in universe explanation is he was suppressed to mess around with the gun man.

[Darkprince410]

also gohan cant even touch ssj2 goku,no way he can beat ssj3 goku or ssj2 vegeta. but this is all off topic.

ssj god goku is only like 30 x stronger give or take then ssj3 bog goku, but ssj3 kid goku is over 4,000 x stronger then end of Z goku.

Gohan was considerably stronger than Ssj3 Gotenks, who was, in turn, considerably stronger than Ssj3 Goku. There's enough evidence that even pre-Room Ssj Gotenks was stronger than Ssj3 Goku, but there's really no question that Ssj3 Gotenks was stronger than Ssj3 Goku.

There's nothing within the movie or Super that indicates that Ssj God Goku is only around 30x as powerful as Ssj3 Goku from the same era, nor anything within GT that indicates that Ssj3 Kid Goku was anywhere near that strong. Simply saying "so and so is x stronger than so and so" without any proof to support it means nothing argument wise.

In the manga it's more clear he's being shoot through but you either have to call that a plot hole like goku being shot through in ROF or he was suppressed to human level for a second to mess around with the guy, which adds to why he was laughing s hard. HE clearly got hit on purpose as he could have dodged them easily, I think a good in universe explanation is he was suppressed to mess around with the gun man.

At the same time that's happening, Piccolo, sensing what's going on from the Lookout, is in shock at just how much more powerful this version of Buu is from Fat Buu. He can't be both more powerful than Fat Buu while suppressing his strength to as low as you're suggesting.

[Speedster]

Gohan was considerably stronger than Ssj3 Gotenks, who was, in turn, considerably stronger than Ssj3 Goku. There's enough evidence that even pre-Room Ssj Gotenks was stronger than Ssj3 Goku, but there's really no question that Ssj3 Gotenks was stronger than Ssj3 Goku.

In Dragonball Kai the “filler” scene of SSJ3 Goku Vs Buutenks was not removed meaning that at least in the “Anime canon” SSJ3 Goku>Super Buu (no one absorbed) as well as Buucolo. In the “Anime Canon” there is no question that: Super Vegetto>Buuhan>Buutenks>kid Buu>=Mystic Gohan>=SSJ3 Goku>Buucolo>Super Buu>= SSJ3 Gotenks

The Dragonball Super Anime which first aired after the end of Dragonball Kai and features the “filler” mighty Gregory is a midquel to the “anime canon” rather than the “manga canon”. And within DB Super itself we have many references and evidences about Goku being the strongest “Z” fighter and kid Buu being the strongest base form of Buu.

1. In episode 1 Goku implies that he was not much stronger than he was in the Buu arc. Goku implies that himself is still on the level of kid Buu - mentioning that he wasn’t able to beat kid Buu on his own and he trains in case someone as strong or stronger appears.
2. In episode 2 Vegeta says that Goku is the number one. And he was implying in the universe as he later said that he wants himself to be strongest in the universe. No reference to Gohan.
3. Mystic Gohan gets easily defeated by Beerus and when Beerus mentioned how much power he used against SSJ2 enraged Vegeta he had as a reference point Goku. Neither Gotenks or Mystic Gohan or Buu.

You support that Mystic Gohan>SSJ3 Gotenks=8*SSJ1 Gotenks>>SSJ3 Goku i.e. pretty much that Mystic Gohan in the Buu arc was at least 20xSSJ3 Goku. Now for Mystic Gohan to get weaker than SSJ3 Goku he needed to drop to less than 5% fo his power. Even in the 7 years gap between the Cell games and the Buu arc Gohan didn't even drop to 50% - if had dropped to less than 50% he would be even weaker than he was as a SSJ1 in the Cell games which was DEFINITELY NOT the case. Given Vegeta’s, Gohans’ and Goku’s comments during Gohan’s fight against Dabura, Gohan likely dropped to 90% of what he used to be in the Cell games and arguably to 75% when he started training a month earlier. So in 7 years he dropped to 75%. I can't see how in 0.75-2 years (or even in 5 years for those who dispute the timeline) Gohan would drop to less than 5% especially given that in BOGs he could still turn mystic.

[Darkprince410]

Gohan was considerably stronger than Ssj3 Gotenks, who was, in turn, considerably stronger than Ssj3 Goku. There's enough evidence that even pre-Room Ssj Gotenks was stronger than Ssj3 Goku, but there's really no question that Ssj3 Gotenks was stronger than Ssj3 Goku.

In Dragonball Kai the “filler” scene of SSJ3 Goku Vs Buutenks was not removed meaning that at least in the “Anime canon” SSJ3 Goku>Super Buu (no one absorbed) as well as Buucolo. In the “Anime Canon” there is no question that: Super Vegetto>Buuhan>Buutenks>kid Buu>=Mystic Gohan>=SSJ3 Goku>Buucolo>Super Buu>= SSJ3 Gotenks

The Dragonball Super Anime which first aired after the end of Dragonball Kai and features the “filler” mighty Gregory is a midquel to the “anime canon” rather than the “manga canon”. And within DB Super itself we have many references and evidences about Goku being the strongest “Z” fighter and kid Buu being the strongest base form of Buu.

1. In episode 1 Goku implies that he was not much stronger than he was in the Buu arc. Goku implies that himself is still on the level of kid Buu - mentioning that he wasn’t able to beat kid Buu on his own and he trains in case someone as strong or stronger appears.
2. In episode 2 Vegeta says that Goku is the number one. And he was implying in the universe as he later said that he wants himself to be strongest in the universe. No reference to Gohan.
3. Mystic Gohan gets easily defeated by Beerus and when Beerus mentioned how much power he used against SSJ2 enraged Vegeta he had as a reference point Goku. Neither Gotenks or Mystic Gohan or Buu.

You support that Mystic Gohan>SSJ3 Gotenks=8*SSJ1 Gotenks>>SSJ3 Goku i.e. pretty much that Mystic Gohan in the Buu arc was at least 20xSSJ3 Goku. Now for Mystic Gohan to get weaker than SSJ3 Goku he needed to drop to less than 5% fo his power. Even in the 7 years gap between the Cell games and the Buu arc Gohan didn't even drop to 50% - if had dropped to less than 50% he would be even weaker than he was as a SSJ1 in the Cell games which was DEFINITELY NOT the case. Given Vegeta’s, Gohans’ and Goku’s comments during Gohan’s fight against Dabura, Gohan likely dropped to 90% of what he used to be in the Cell games and arguably to 75% when he started training a month earlier. So in 7 years he dropped to 75%. I can't see how in 0.75-2 years (or even in 5 years for those who dispute the timeline) Gohan would drop to less than 5% especially given that in BOGs he could still turn mystic.

1) Even going by "anime canon", Goku is still weaker than regular Evil Buu, as he specifically states that he and Vegeta stand no chance against him, and if they left his body, they'd die. Goku went on later to establish that he and Vegeta, upon escaping, would regain their size, so any notion that he didn't think they'd return to normal is irrelevant for that.

2) None of those statements establish Goku being stronger than Gohan though.

1. I fail to see the relevance? No specific form of Buu is mentioned at that point, and Goku simply trains so that if he ever needs to fight again, then he'll be ready for someone like Buu without difficulty. That hearkens back to Goku and Vegeta's conversation upon allowing Mr. Buu to remain alive, that, in a worst case scenario, he and Vegeta can fight Buu again, and that they should train so they'll be ready to handle him in a 1 vs. 1 fight. A "worst case scenario" means that there are better case scenarios he believes would be available, which would include Gohan and Gotenks.

2. Vegeta specifically refers to Goku as the strongest Saiya-jin, not necessarily the strongest all in all, and states that he should be considered #1 because he had defeated Buu (despite the fact that he didn't use his strength to defeat Buu, rather he used the Genki Dama). Vegeta goes on to say that he'll surpass Goku and everyone else in the universe to make himself #1, which again leaves plenty of room for Gohan and Gotenks to be among those he knows are stronger. We also know that he doesn't remember Beerus at the time, so he can't be referring to him amongst the "everyone else", as it took a combination of North Kaiou talking about him and actually seeing him to jog his memory.

3. Gohan didn't even really get a chance to throw a punch at Beerus. He got smacked away when Beerus swung Buu into him, and that was it. While it was a sad way for Gohan to go out, that doesn't suddenly make him as weak as you're suggesting. In addition, Gotenks was only in his base form when he "fought" Beerus, not his Ssj3 form. Gohan got punked by a single blow from Buu being swung at him, and Gotenks had his wrist slapped repeatedly before being flicked away.

3) We have Gohan growing so weak and rusty from lack of training in a single year between Battle of Gods and Revival of F that he's not even sure he's able to transform into a Super Saiya-jin. It's pretty clear that there's no set standard for how quickly one can grow weaker and by how much they'll grow weaker. Besides, as pointed out, your "facts" leave plenty of room for Gohan and Gotenks to still be stronger.

[Speedster]

1) Even going by "anime canon", Goku is still weaker than regular Evil Buu, as he specifically states that he and Vegeta stand no chance against him, and if they left his body, they'd die. Goku went on later to establish that he and Vegeta, upon escaping, would regain their size, so any notion that he didn't think they'd return to normal is irrelevant for that.

2) None of those statements establish Goku being stronger than Gohan though.

1. I fail to see the relevance? No specific form of Buu is mentioned at that point, and Goku simply trains so that if he ever needs to fight again, then he'll be ready for someone like Buu without difficulty. That hearkens back to Goku and Vegeta's conversation upon allowing Mr. Buu to remain alive, that, in a worst case scenario, he and Vegeta can fight Buu again, and that they should train so they'll be ready to handle him in a 1 vs. 1 fight. A "worst case scenario" means that there are better case scenarios he believes would be available, which would include Gohan and Gotenks.

2. Vegeta specifically refers to Goku as the strongest Saiya-jin, not necessarily the strongest all in all, and states that he should be considered #1 because he had defeated Buu (despite the fact that he didn't use his strength to defeat Buu, rather he used the Genki Dama). Vegeta goes on to say that he'll surpass Goku and everyone else in the universe to make himself #1, which again leaves plenty of room for Gohan and Gotenks to be among those he knows are stronger. We also know that he doesn't remember Beerus at the time, so he can't be referring to him amongst the "everyone else", as it took a combination of North Kaiou talking about him and actually seeing him to jog his memory.

3. Gohan didn't even really get a chance to throw a punch at Beerus. He got smacked away when Beerus swung Buu into him, and that was it. While it was a sad way for Gohan to go out, that doesn't suddenly make him as weak as you're suggesting. In addition, Gotenks was only in his base form when he "fought" Beerus, not his Ssj3 form. Gohan got punked by a single blow from Buu being swung at him, and Gotenks had his wrist slapped repeatedly before being flicked away.

3) We have Gohan growing so weak and rusty from lack of training in a single year between Battle of Gods and Revival of F that he's not even sure he's able to transform into a Super Saiya-jin. It's pretty clear that there's no set standard for how quickly one can grow weaker and by how much they'll grow weaker. Besides, as pointed out, your "facts" leave plenty of room for Gohan and Gotenks to still be stronger.

1a) The relevance is that one can argue that between the Buu arc and BoGs Goku got 20x stronger or something. He did not. He was still at the same level he was before - perhaps at 1.1x his previous level but nowhere close 20x. Ah and whenever Goku refers to Majin Buu after the defeat of kid Buu he means kid Buu - NOT Mr Buu. Very clear from the final chapter of the manga and the last two DBZ anime episodes.

1b) In the anime Goku went against Buutenks and hold his own arguably better than Gohan. That is enough evidence for me that in the anime SSJ3 Goku and Mystic Gohan were about on par and stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. As for the dialogue with Vegeta in the innads of Buu, Goku was referring to their SSJ2 form out of respect to Vegeta. For me it is clear as day.

2) Gohan is a Saiyan-jin too. And don't tell me Vegeta doesn't care about hybrids as he clearly did care about Gohan surpassing him during the Cell games. Same with Trunks back in the early Android saga when another Saiyan (and without black hair) went SSJ.

3) Beerus knows the amount of energy he puts into his attacks so seeing Gohan being knocked out by just throwing Buu at him with X amount of energy it was enough to conclude he was weaker than Goku who required him to put Y amount of energy in the attack where Y>X.

4) There is no indication/evidence that Gohan’s base form got weaker in FnF. He simply lost his ability to go mystic which was say basex420. It is similar to saying that Goku lost his ability to go SSJ3 and can only go SSJ1 - it would automatically make Goku 8x weaker. But Gohan still had that ability to turn mystic in BOGs. Also in FnF it is unclear whether Gohan could only go SSJ1. He was just unsure because he hadn't tried to turn SSJ for a long time. I could also argue he turned SSJ2 as in the franchise since the SSJ2 Goku Vs SSJ2 Vegeta battle showing the SSJ2’ electric aura or the more spiky SSJ2 hair was neglected most of the time and SSJ2 and SSJ1 were drawn identically. See the anime battles of (i)Vegeta vs kid Buu, (ii)Goku & Vegeta vs Buuhan,(iii) Gohan Vs Broly in the movie and (iv) all GT like kid SSJ2 Goku Vs Rilldo (saying my power increased 100 fold thus clearly SSJ2- not SSJ1).

[Darkprince410]

1a) The relevance is that one can argue that between the Buu arc and BoGs Goku got 20x stronger or something. He did not. He was still at the same level he was before - perhaps at 1.1x his previous level but nowhere close 20x. Ah and whenever Goku refers to Majin Buu after the defeat of kid Buu he means kid Buu - NOT Mr Buu. Very clear from the final chapter of the manga and the last two DBZ anime episodes.

If you go by Vegeta's statement regarding his fear over keeping Mr. Buu alive, both he and Goku are just as likely talking about a possible Pure Evil Buu (the grey one) appearing again, rather than Pure Buu. Vegeta specifically mentions Mr. Buu creating another "terrible Buu" again, and the only Buu that Mr. Buu created was the Pure Evil one when he expelled the evil within him.

Besides, that still doesn't really matter as to the relevance of it all.

1b) In the anime Goku went against Buutenks and hold his own arguably better than Gohan. That is enough evidence for me that in the anime SSJ3 Goku and Mystic Gohan were about on par and stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. As for the dialogue with Vegeta in the innads of Buu, Goku was referring to their SSJ2 form out of respect to Vegeta. For me it is clear as day.

Why would he be doing it out of respect for Vegeta? Vegeta, by that time, already knows about Super Saiya-jin 3, and Goku knows that he knows. If anything, it would be all the more insulting to Vegeta for him to make that kind of statement, especially after berating him for destroying the Potara, which is something he knew Vegeta didn't want to ever do again. At that point, there is literally no reason for Goku to not take Ssj3 into account, so him saying that the two would stand no chance is taking their very best into account.

2) Gohan is a Saiyan-jin too. And don't tell me Vegeta doesn't care about hybrids as he clearly did care about Gohan surpassing him during the Cell games. Same with Trunks back in the early Android saga when another Saiyan (and without black hair) went SSJ.

You're still ignoring the fact that Vegeta makes the boast about surpassing everyone in the universe to become the strongest (without remembering Beerus existed), and likewise only considered Goku #1 because he had defeated Pure Buu, despite having done so without his own strength being a factor. His reasons for considering Goku the best aren't based on him being the strongest, but that he beat who was, overall, the strongest enemy that they ever faced (Ma-jin Buu). Again though, why would Vegeta indicate that, in order to become the strongest in the universe, he'd need to surpass others in addition to Goku, if Goku were the strongest? Beerus isn't in the picture, and there's no other universal beings that Vegeta would know of that are stronger, so the only way that Vegeta's line would make sense is if he knew there were others stronger than Goku he'd need to surpass, and Gohan and Gotenks are the only two candidates.

3) Beerus knows the amount of energy he puts into his attacks so seeing Gohan being knocked out by just throwing Buu at him with X amount of energy it was enough to conclude he was weaker than Goku who required him to put Y amount of energy in the attack where Y>X.

That's not entertaining though. Beerus speaks of Vegeta having entertained him more than Goku did, and simply taking Gohan out with one blow wouldn't be anywhere near as exciting as everything that Goku did to try and attack him on North Kaiou's planet. The only comparison he directly gives between Goku and Vegeta was that Vegeta entertained him more. It's his other line, where he mentions that Vegeta pushed him higher than he's ever had to go before in a long time (around 10%) that gives us the information that Vegeta surpassed Goku, albeit briefly. Without that other line, one couldn't actually say that Vegeta was stronger than Goku, which makes the comparison of how entertained Beerus was rather moot.

4) There is no indication/evidence that Gohan’s base form got weaker in FnF. He simply lost his ability to go mystic which was say basex420. It is similar to saying that Goku lost his ability to go SSJ3 and can only go SSJ1 - it would automatically make Goku 8x weaker. But Gohan still had that ability to turn mystic in BOGs. Also in FnF it is unclear whether Gohan could only go SSJ1. He was just unsure because he hadn't tried to turn SSJ for a long time. I could also argue he turned SSJ2 as in the franchise since the SSJ2 Goku Vs SSJ2 Vegeta battle showing the SSJ2’ electric aura or the more spiky SSJ2 hair was neglected most of the time and SSJ2 and SSJ1 were drawn identically. See the anime battles of (i)Vegeta vs kid Buu, (ii)Goku & Vegeta vs Buuhan,(iii) Gohan Vs Broly in the movie and (iv) all GT like kid SSJ2 Goku Vs Rilldo (saying my power increased 100 fold thus clearly SSJ2- not SSJ1).

For starters, the 100 fold thing for GT was a dubism. In the original dialogue, Rild indicates that Goku, upon transforming, wasn't even using half his power up to that point.

Rild: “Up to now, you haven't been putting out half of your power.”

Which is a far cry from the 100 fold increase that the dub mentions. Besides, we see Goku clearly transform into a Super Saiya-jin 2 briefly during his fight with Rild's final form, to dissipate that large metal ball that Rild shoots.

In any case, considering that his post-power-up state was his new base form (it wasn't something he switched on and off, given that we see he is permanently changed as a result of the transformation), for him to grow so weak that he needs to transform into a Super Saiya-jin to take out someone that Piccolo was having a rough time with (but relatively close to one another strength wise), indicates a massive strength decrease. Essentially the entirety of his Rou Kaioushin power-up, which wasn't a temporary transformation (as Rou Kaioushin indicated as such).

[Speedster]

If you go by Vegeta's statement regarding his fear over keeping Mr. Buu alive, both he and Goku are just as likely talking about a possible Pure Evil Buu (the grey one) appearing again, rather than Pure Buu. Vegeta specifically mentions Mr. Buu creating another "terrible Buu" again, and the only Buu that Mr. Buu created was the Pure Evil one when he expelled the evil within him.

I already explained the relevance and as for which Buu Goku is referring to when he says Ma-jin Buu is in the final chapter of the manga. And this is Kid Buu. As for Vegeta - he never even saw Evil Buu to begin with (as he was busy being dead) - only fat Buu, Buuhan and kid Buu. So he could have referred to the final product that such a Mr Buu spiting could possibly produce you know Evil Buu, who eats Mr Buu becoming Super Buu and then sneakily absorbing someone like Gohan and becoming the Buuhan they faced. Also at the start of Super the narrator said after 6 months since the defeat of Ma-jin Buu showing extracts from the spirit bomb so he was referring to kid Buu. Everything points towards "Majin Buu"=Kid Buu.

Why would he be doing it out of respect for Vegeta? Vegeta, by that time, already knows about Super Saiya-jin 3, and Goku knows that he knows. If anything, it would be all the more insulting to Vegeta for him to make that kind of statement, especially after berating him for destroying the Potara, which is something he knew Vegeta didn't want to ever do again. At that point, there is literally no reason for Goku to not take Ssj3 into account, so him saying that the two would stand no chance is taking their very best into account.

Because he was feeling guilty of Vegeta blowing himself up and dying for thinking they were equal. As a result Goku was addressing him as an equal lowballing his SSJ3 strength and keep promoting collaboration. And Vegeta clearly realised that Goku all along was lowballing himself in order to spare his feelings. Read the following manga pages: chapter 511 page 12 and page 13.

Also note at the end of the page 12 referring to kid Buu Vegeta says "Buu is stronger than I imagined". First why would he be surprised if he was only as strong as base Super Buu? And then says: "That goes for you too" (talking to Goku). This means that Goku demonstrated a power level far beyond himself claimed to have had while inside Super Buu.

You're still ignoring the fact that Vegeta makes the boast about surpassing everyone in the universe to become the strongest (without remembering Beerus existed), and likewise only considered Goku #1 because he had defeated Pure Buu, despite having done so without his own strength being a factor. His reasons for considering Goku the best aren't based on him being the strongest, but that he beat who was, overall, the strongest enemy that they ever faced (Ma-jin Buu). Again though, why would Vegeta indicate that, in order to become the strongest in the universe, he'd need to surpass others in addition to Goku, if Goku were the strongest? Beerus isn't in the picture, and there's no other universal beings that Vegeta would know of that are stronger, so the only way that Vegeta's line would make sense is if he knew there were others stronger than Goku he'd need to surpass, and Gohan and Gotenks are the only two candidates.

No, I am not ignoring it. I am just interpreting correctly. The general "in the universe" statement doesn't make Gohan and Gotenks candidates. Vegeta just says it in the same manner Goku says it he is training for the possible but unknown stronger to him guy that may exist/created/appear in the universe. It can be from the Freeza's clan, an Android from evil scientists, etc, etc. Your Genki Dama argument is irrelevant as Vegeta considered Goku #1 due to his performance against kid Buu. Also full power SSJ3 Goku could have arguably beaten kid Buu - it was the form's draining disadvantage and the original dragging of the fight that made Goku losing the advantage. Ref: Manga chapter 511 page 13.

That's not entertaining though. Beerus speaks of Vegeta having entertained him more than Goku did, and simply taking Gohan out with one blow wouldn't be anywhere near as exciting as everything that Goku did to try and attack him on North Kaiou's planet. The only comparison he directly gives between Goku and Vegeta was that Vegeta entertained him more. It's his other line, where he mentions that Vegeta pushed him higher than he's ever had to go before in a long time (around 10%) that gives us the information that Vegeta surpassed Goku, albeit briefly. Without that other line, one couldn't actually say that Vegeta was stronger than Goku, which makes the comparison of how entertained Beerus was rather moot.

You are far stretching the playing of words there and you know it. I can also argue that Beerus can sense power levels and didn't feel that Gohan was worthy of not taking him out in one shot.

For starters, the 100 fold thing for GT was a dubism. In the original dialogue, Rild indicates that Goku, upon transforming, wasn't even using half his power up to that point

Good for correcting one out of the 4 examples. That doesn't make the other 3 wrong though. Not to mention the SSJ Goku Vs 17 and getting the tally back to 4.

In any case, considering that his post-power-up state was his new base form (it wasn't something he switched on and off, given that we see he is permanently changed as a result of the transformation), for him to grow so weak that he needs to transform into a Super Saiya-jin to take out someone that Piccolo was having a rough time with (but relatively close to one another strength wise), indicates a massive strength decrease. Essentially the entirety of his Rou Kaioushin power-up, which wasn't a temporary transformation (as Rou Kaioushin indicated as such).

We always see him powering up a white aura. Elder Kaioshin told him that he can go mystic by trying going SSJ. Ref: Manga chapter 497 page 4.

It is simple really. Gohan lost his ability to go mystic by having part of his potential locked again in the same way say the Godly Ki that Goku absorbed "permanently" from the ritual in his base would/could dissipate over time. It is more or less like this:

SSG=2500xnormal base
Godly base=500xnormal base
SSGSS=5xGodly base=2500xnormal base

Mystic Gohan (powered up)=450*normal base
Mystic base=4.5xnormal base
Mystic Gohan (powered up)=100xMystic base=450xnormal base

Gohan losing his Mystic base would not weaken his original normal base. He lost his mystic base and powering up to SSJ2 instead of turning him into Mystic Gohan turns him into SSJ2.