Which Saga Had Characters At Their Stupidest?

[Lunatic Fringe]

Why do you think that selfishness and stupidity are mutually exclusive? Can't a decision be both?

Not in this case. Goku and Vegeta get what they want. How can succeeding possibly be stupidity?

Succeeding can only be perceived in hindsight, aka, when everything is said and done. Evaluating a choice and the ramifications that said choices bring about is really what brings issues into focus. Just because the day was saved when SSJ2 Gohan wiped out Cell for good doesn't mean that avoiding all of the death, pain, and heartache that came from not directly preventing Gero from building his killer cyborgs wasn't stupid. That, by the way, was a selfish decision because Goku and most of the gang just wanted a good fight.

[nickzambuto]

Why do you think that selfishness and stupidity are mutually exclusive? Can't a decision be both?

Not in this case. Goku and Vegeta get what they want. How can succeeding possibly be stupidity?

Succeeding can only be perceived in hindsight, aka, when everything is said and done. Evaluating a choice and the ramifications that said choices bring about is really what brings issues into focus. Just because the day was saved when SSJ2 Gohan wiped out Cell for good doesn't mean that avoiding all of the death, pain, and heartache that came from not directly preventing Gero from building his killer cyborgs wasn't stupid. That, by the way, was a selfish decision because Goku and most of the gang just wanted a good fight.

But stopping Gero prematurely was not in Goku's interests. How is it stupid if it is what he wanted? If Goku's IQ was amped up to 10,000 but his personality remained the same, he would make the same decision. It's not about intelligence, Goku KNEW stopping Gero, fusing for Boo, etc would all be easier, but it isn't what he wanted. He made a choice based off what he actually wanted.

Selfish? Yes. Brash? Yes. Stupid? Not a chance.

[Lunatic Fringe]

But stopping Gero prematurely was not in Goku's interests. How is it stupid if it is what he wanted? If Goku's IQ was amped up to 10,000 but his personality remained the same, he would make the same decision. It's not about intelligence, Goku KNEW stopping Gero, f fusing for Boo, etc would all be easier, but it isn't what he wanted. He made a choice based off what he actually wanted.

Selfish? Yes. Brash? Yes. Stupid? Not a chance.

It's stupid because pursuing those self-interests for the sake of a good fight, instead of just doing it easier and thus, avoiding any potential setbacks that not even training can prepare for, is...well, stupid. And selfish and brash, too, but you already pointed that out.

To avoid breaking forum rules, I'll just end this by saying "agree to disagree" and keep it at that but feel free to object if you wish.

[nickzambuto]

But stopping Gero prematurely was not in Goku's interests. How is it stupid if it is what he wanted? If Goku's IQ was amped up to 10,000 but his personality remained the same, he would make the same decision. It's not about intelligence, Goku KNEW stopping Gero, f fusing for Boo, etc would all be easier, but it isn't what he wanted. He made a choice based off what he actually wanted.

Selfish? Yes. Brash? Yes. Stupid? Not a chance.

It's stupid because pursuing those self-interests for the sake of a good fight, instead of just doing it easier and thus, avoiding any potential setbacks that not even training can prepare for, is...well, stupid. And selfish and brash, too, but you already pointed that out.

Well, it seems we have different definitions of stupid. I can't think of a way to explain my reasoning any more clearly. I just feel like, if Goku assessed his options, decided on what he personally wanted, and successfully achieved whatever that was, he can't be stupid.

[irreality]

But stopping Gero prematurely was not in Goku's interests. How is it stupid if it is what he wanted? If Goku's IQ was amped up to 10,000 but his personality remained the same, he would make the same decision. It's not about intelligence, Goku KNEW stopping Gero, fusing for Boo, etc would all be easier, but it isn't what he wanted. He made a choice based off what he actually wanted.

Selfish? Yes. Brash? Yes. Stupid? Not a chance.

Goku was still stupid in the Cell saga, though: he failed to understand his own son's basic character traits. He also forgot to take his medicine ahead of time. Neither of these has anything to do with brashness or selfishness: just basic lack of observational skills. Thus my vote is Cell/Android Saga.

Similar with Vegeta: in Namek, he tried his best to accomplish his goals. Even in the Buu Saga he did the same: he got his fight with Goku (even if it sucked for everyone else), and then came up with a winning strategy to save the day. In the Cell/Android Saga: sure, I understand him wanting to fight stronger dudes, but have some sense of perspective on your own strength, too, and you won't alternate between amazing fighter/curb stomp.

[Doctor.]

So wait you're saying Goku not taking Babidi's minions seriously even though he knows energy will be transmitted to Majin Boo if they get hit,

He took them seriously enough to kill them.

Gohan failing to catch an earring

That's dumb storytelling, that's not the characters being dumb. Are you stupid if you trip and fall? Of course not.

no one going along with Vegeta's suggestion to destroy Babidi's spaceship to get to Majin Boo's egg for no apparent reason,

That was explained in the story, they were afraid they might accidentally release Majin Boo.

Goku fighting one-on-one with Majin Vegeta instead of seeking help from the others,

An opponent he could easily handle by himself.

or anything Kaioshin did is justifiable?

A lot more justifiable than anything surrounding Trunks.

[DBZAOTA482]

He took them seriously enough to kill them.

Not serious enough. He knows they can steal energy from hitting their opponents and it will go directly to Majin Boo yet he still chose to fight them one-on-one. At least, help out when Gohan is visibly struggling with Dabura.

Actually, Gohan shoulda told them off and not let his tomfoolery go on.

That's dumb storytelling, that's not the characters being dumb. Are you stupid if you trip and fall? Of course not.

No, but this is a boy who can catch bullets perfectly fine at just SSJ. The character was being stupid for the plot ergo character is stupid.

That was explained in the story, they were afraid they might accidentally release Majin Boo.

No, Kaioshin was afraid of that. The others (including Vegeta) just go along with it even though it doesn't make much sense to even draw such a conclusion and even if it Majin Boo would be revived at a portion of his powers making him easy to defeat if they ban together.

An opponent he could easily handle by himself.

Before the spell yes but with it Vegeta is sure to make great gains from it yet Goku didn't even give it a single-thought.

A lot more justifiable than anything surrounding Trunks.

How so..? As far as I'm concerned, Trunks was only dumb in not describing how the androids look and using USSJ. Otherwise he was one of the few rational characters throughout the entire series wanting the enemies defeated quickly and efficiently as possible (hell, none of the shit in the Android and Cell Sagas would have happened if Vegeta (and to a lesser extent, Goku) didn't fuck everything up) while Kaioshin made stupid decision at every step:

-Thought it would be a good idea to leave Majin Boo's egg, an egg was afraid of breaking under the slightest sudden movement, on a planet that's sure to be the playground for planet-busting aliens and has earthquakes. Kaioshin himself acknowledged human life was already involve.
-Thought letting Spopovich and Yamu steal Gohan's energy was a good idea when there's so many other less risky options.
-Forgets all about sensing Gohan's powers from literally just a few hours ago. In fact, it took him all way to his ass beating to realize how painfully outclassed he was.
-The not destroying Babidi's spaceship thing like mentioned before.
-Severely overestimating all of Babidi's minions par from Dabura (he was actually strong)
-Tried to get in the way of Goku and Majin Vegeta fighting even though all that would do is get more people killed.
-Doesn't tell Gohan about Majin Boo's ability of absorb people (arguably Boo's most deadly technique).
- His very existence made things worse. The entire Majin Boo Saga wouldn't have happened at all if he just did nothing.

[Doctor.]

Not serious enough. He knows they can steal energy from hitting their opponents and it will go directly to Majin Boo yet he still chose to fight them one-on-one. At least, help out when Gohan is visibly struggling with Dabura.

Actually, Gohan shoulda told them off and not let his tomfoolery go on.

Because they - Babidi's minions - were all weak as shit.

Dabra could be defeated at any time.

No, but this is a boy who can catch bullets perfectly fine at just SSJ. The character was being stupid for the plot ergo character is stupid.

Again, plot being stupid =/= character being stupid.

No, Kaioshin was afraid of that. The others (including Vegeta) just go along with it even though it doesn't make much sense to even draw such a conclusion and even if it Majin Boo would be revived at a portion of his powers making him easy to defeat if they ban together.

And, logically, they should expect God to know what he's talking about. Blowing it up without knowing anything would be a risky decision.

Before the spell yes but with it Vegeta is sure to make great gains from it yet Goku didn't even give it a single-thought.

Goku could have won at any time with Super Saiyan 3.

Trunks was only dumb in not describing how the androids look and using USSJ. He was one of the few rational characters throughout the entire series while Kaioshin made stupid decision at every step:

He didn't try to find Gero or his lab, instead he went to Goku. And I said everything surrounding Trunks. As in, Bulma not telling him about Gero, nobody telling him about the RoSaT, etc.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

Buu saga easily.

I could do a rant about supreme kai keeping buu's powers a secret....you know like absorption?! That's uh.....something that would have been nice to know Mr. Spent thousands of years hunting down 1 guy -_-

And it's the most inconstant saga of all. all the plot holes in ball and gt COMBINED don't add up to the buu saga.

Vegito-Hmmm I don't know if my barrier will work, I'm even sweating a bit.....bt hey what's the worst thing that can happen if buu absorbs me? At least w have dende to stop buuhan Vegito absorbed! The universe won't be fucked o anything!

[ABED]

Goku could have won at any time with Super Saiyan 3.

Which of course assumes Toriyama had thought of that form already.

I'd say the entire Cell/Cyborg arc, but I wouldn't call them stupid as much as time travel always creates these sorts of holes in logic.

[Avery]

I think people are being a bit too harsh on Kaioshin. I mean, his plan wasn't really that dumb and could've actually worked were it not for some alien monkeys.

Anyway, the Cell arc wins. Literally everyone did at least one act of sheer stupidity.

[Ree]

the Cell arc NO CONTEST!
Goku giving Cell a senzu bean WTF
and no one listened to Bulma even though she was the only one with a brain.

[DBZAOTA482]

I think people are being a bit too harsh on Kaioshin. I mean, his plan wasn't really that dumb and could've actually worked were it not for some alien monkeys.

No, if anything I'm going easy on Kaioshin. If he really wanted to tear into that purple fuck then I could easily do a lot worse.

Also, his "plan" almost succeeded in the first place cuz of said "alien monkeys".

[ABED]

Goku giving Cell a senzu bean WTF

It had absolutely no effect on the outcome, and Goku needed Cell to bring out Gohan's power in order for Gohan to win. It wasn't stupid, it was strategy.

[Ree]

it turned out well in the end but thats still something only an idiot would do.

[ABED]

it turned out well in the end but thats still something only an idiot would do.

The outcome would be the same, regardless. It wasn't an accident that it ended up well.

[Ree]

the point is that it was stupid to give him a Senzu.
he did NOT take anyone else into consideration

[DBZAOTA482]

And, logically, they should expect God to know what he's talking about. Blowing it up without knowing anything would be a risky decision.

They know it can seal up the strongest being known to the universe and they never took most of what Kaioshin said seriously so why start now?

Goku could have won at any time with Super Saiyan 3.

But he didn't act on that... so him receiving help from the others would be a better option.

He didn't try to find Gero or his lab, instead he went to Goku. And I said everything surrounding Trunks. As in, Bulma not telling him about Gero, nobody telling him about the RoSaT, etc.

It simply never crossed his mind and I'm sure he wanted little involvement in the 3rd timeline as possible. Also, Bulma did tell him about Gero and only Goku knew about RoSaT but he viewed it as more of a last resort.

[ABED]

the point is that it was stupid to give him a Senzu.
he did NOT take anyone else into consideration

It wasn't stupid because he took into consideration what was needed to defeat Cell. Gohan's power needed to be brought out. It's not clear that Gohan could've defeated Cell even in that state.

[Ree]

So hidden powers are more important than the safety of his own son? who was LESS THAN TEN