Which Saga Had Characters At Their Stupidest?

[ABED]

So hidden powers are more important than the safety of his own son? who was LESS THAN TEN

Would his son been any safer if he didn't have the power to defeat Cell? What about the rest of the world?

[Ree]

But giving the bad guy a senzu bean tells me you don't care about your son's well being. his own self interest came first

[ABED]

But giving the bad guy a senzu bean tells me you don't care about your son's well being. his own self interest came first

How? If Gohan's power isn't drawn out, then Gohan dies.

[Ree]

That doesn't factor in his personality

[ABED]

That doesn't factor in his personality

Of course it does, and it's why he did what he did. He stated that he wanted to bring out Gohan's power because it was what was needed. And Goku's personality about fair fights has to do with him. There's no indication I can recall where he would force that on anyone else. And it wouldn't be a fair fight even when Gohan's power was brought out as it DWARFED Cell's. The senzu had zero effect on the outcome of the fight and Goku knew it.

[nickzambuto]

But stopping Gero prematurely was not in Goku's interests. How is it stupid if it is what he wanted? If Goku's IQ was amped up to 10,000 but his personality remained the same, he would make the same decision. It's not about intelligence, Goku KNEW stopping Gero, fusing for Boo, etc would all be easier, but it isn't what he wanted. He made a choice based off what he actually wanted.

Selfish? Yes. Brash? Yes. Stupid? Not a chance.

Goku was still stupid in the Cell saga, though: he failed to understand his own son's basic character traits. He also forgot to take his medicine ahead of time. Neither of these has anything to do with brashness or selfishness: just basic lack of observational skills. Thus my vote is Cell/Android Saga.

Similar with Vegeta: in Namek, he tried his best to accomplish his goals. Even in the Buu Saga he did the same: he got his fight with Goku (even if it sucked for everyone else), and then came up with a winning strategy to save the day. In the Cell/Android Saga: sure, I understand him wanting to fight stronger dudes, but have some sense of perspective on your own strength, too, and you won't alternate between amazing fighter/curb stomp.

Good point. I was specifically defending instances like Goku choosing not to stop Gero from making the androids and choosing not to fuse, but the examples you brought up are legitimate mistakes on Goku's part. However in reference to his misunderstanding of Gohan's character, I've always thought that people were too hard on Goku for that, and this kind of goes into the whole "Is Goku a bad father" debate. Yes, Goku did fail Gohan in that instance, but how can you possibly expect a father to be completely infallible? Goku misunderstanding an aspect of his son's personality is basic fatherhood stuff. It isn't an uncommon trope in fiction, where the son is bred by the father to take his place, only to reveal that he has a different dream but doesn't want to let his father down. A good and intelligent father, like Goku, would be able to make amends for this mistake, but mistakes DO happen once in awhile.

[ABED]

he failed to understand his own son's basic character traits.

He actually did. He knew Gohan wanted to grow up to be a scholar, but until Gohan (the only person who can defeat Cell) defeats Cell, then all his desires mean little. And Goku never bred his son to take over his spot. 1 - I don't think Goku thinks in those terms, 2 - He let Chichi decide Gohan would become a scholar, 3 - Gohan worked with his father and friends of his own free will.

Why is everyone so eager to take Piccolo's complaint to Goku as gospel?

[DBZAOTA482]

Goku wanted Gohan to beat Cell with full confidence.. that's why he gave Cell the senzu. Goku was only wrong in not telling Gohan of his plans.

[irreality]

He knew Gohan wanted to grow up to be a scholar, but until Gohan (the only person who can defeat Cell) defeats Cell, then all his desires mean little.

Gohan's desires do mean something because although it will be required for him to fight at that juncture, he fights for different reasons than his father, and that influences what motivates him and what triggers him to release his power, and how he ultimately controls his power. Those affected when and how he transformed (triggerd ultimately by the words of Android #16, not by Goku), and how he felt in the aftermath of transformation.

. 1 - I don't think Goku thinks in those terms, 2 - He let Chichi decide Gohan would become a scholar, 3 - Gohan worked with his father and friends of his own free will.

Sure, these are all things that happened before or after the Cell games, in general. I'm not saying Goku is in general unobservant. I'm saying he is unobservant at the Cell Games specifically.

I don't take Piccolo's words as "gospel" but they fit the events we see quite well.

Goku wanted Gohan to beat Cell with full confidence.. that's why he gave Cell the senzu. Goku was only wrong in not telling Gohan of his plans.

It is larger than that. It is failing to understand why Gohan is fighting Cell at all. Gohan doesn't need full confidence or being proud of his power -- if anything, that made him overly cocky and more revenge-oriented after transforming and stalled the battle to everyone's detriment.

Goku should have explained himself, but also understood different people were at the Cell games with very different goals and thus should behave accordingly. Especially towards his own son.

It is like: Goku, if you are going to save the world, great, do it on your own terms and have fun. If you are going to assign the task to others, you can't demand they take on the handicaps you want them to take, specially when the task is already difficult. That is just either cruel (which I don't think Goku is) or stupid. Take your pick.

[ABED]

Piccolo's words don't fit because Gohan would never blame his father like that, and Goku did understand Gohan, but whether he did or didn't was irrelevant. Gohan was the ONLY one who could defeat Cell. I'm not sure why you all don't seem to either understand or care about that very important fact.

Those affected when and how he transformed (triggerd ultimately by the words of Android #16, not by Goku), and how he felt in the aftermath of transformation.

Which lends credence to Goku's strategy. Gohan needed an emotional trigger.



It is larger than that. It is failing to understand why Gohan is fighting Cell at all. Gohan doesn't need full confidence or being proud of his power -- if anything, that made him overly cocky and more revenge-oriented after transforming and stalled the battle to everyone's detriment.
While it certainly sucks that Gohan got cocky, that's not Goku's fault, and irrelevant. Gohan was the only one who could stop Cell.

Goku, if you are going to save the world, great, do it on your own terms and have fun. If you are going to assign the task to others, you can't demand they take on the handicaps you want them to take, specially when the task is already difficult. That is just either cruel (which I don't think Goku is) or stupid. Take your pick.

Except Goku isn't in any position to stop Cell. It's not like he chose Gohan. It's how the cards fell. You are giving me a false alternative.

Goku was only wrong in not telling Gohan of his plans.

Yes, that was stupid, though that seems like it was done more for the sake of the audience than anything else.

[LuckyCat]

I'm not sure how having Gohan fight Cell is stupid or cruel. Gohan was the right person for a job that no one else could do. And Goku didn't need to spell it out his plan to Gohan, because Gohan was actually smart enough to figure it out on his own, as Gohan explained to Cell.

[rereboy]

But giving the bad guy a senzu bean tells me you don't care about your son's well being. his own self interest came first

How? If Gohan's power isn't drawn out, then Gohan dies.

Goku isn't all-knowing. If things don't go how he expects them to go, that senzu could be the difference between Gohan managing to defeat Cell and narrowing losing. In any case, even if Gohan still manages to defeat Cell, the senzu bean might be enough to make it harder for him to do so, possibly causing him increased injury or pain. Giving Cell a senzu is just a completely unnecessary risk, no matter how insignificant Goku thinks it is, at the expense of Earth's and his son's chances. Goku let his own self-interest in seeing Gohan go against a fully powered Cell overcome his interest in defeating Cell and making sure Gohan isn't facing unnecessary danger.

[LuckyCat]

Goku let his own self-interest in seeing Gohan go against a fully powered Cell overcome his interest in defeating Cell and making sure Gohan isn't facing unnecessary danger.

I always interpreted this scene as Gohan not being able to get sufficiently angry unless he fought a full-powered Cell. Goku is a fighting genius, I wouldn't underestimate this gesture.

[rereboy]

Goku let his own self-interest in seeing Gohan go against a fully powered Cell overcome his interest in defeating Cell and making sure Gohan isn't facing unnecessary danger.

I always interpreted this scene as Gohan not being able to get sufficiently angry unless he fought a full-powered Cell. Goku is a fighting genius, I wouldn't underestimate this gesture.

Why would Gohan be less angry if Cell is not at his best? Does Cell suddenly stop being as evil? Do his threats suddenly become tamer? Imagine that Goku hadn't given him the senzu, what would be the logical course of events? Cell would certainly still be cocky... he still would threaten Gohan... still would have tried to hurt him... still would have attacked his friends to get to Gohan... Nothing of what actually makes Gohan angry would be different just because Cell is slightly weaker. Goku has no reason to believe Gohan would be any less angry.

[LuckyCat]

Why would Gohan be less angry if Cell is not at his best? Does Cell suddenly stop being as evil? Do his threats suddenly become tamer? Imagine that Goku hadn't given him the senzu, what would be the logical course of events? Cell would certainly still be cocky... he still would threaten Gohan... still would have tried to hurt him... still would have attacked his friends to get to Gohan... Nothing of what actually makes Gohan angry would be different just because Cell is slightly weaker. Goku has no reason to believe Gohan would be any less angry.

I base this on Gohan's half-hearted attempts at fighting Cell before he goes SSJ2. If Gohan stays SSJ1, he might be able to fight at the same level as his dad, but ultimately Cell could win that fight with regeneration or his vault of stolen tactics. Only SSJ2 could truly kill Cell, and only a full-powered Cell could draw out enough rage for SSj2.

[rereboy]

I base this on Gohan's half-hearted attempts at fighting Cell before he goes SSJ2.

I don't follow your logic. If Gohan's trouble at getting angry was because of Cell being slightly weaker, his attempts wouldn't be half-hearted since Cell was fully healed. They were half-hearted due to something else, namely Gohan not really wanting to fight and being afraid of stepping up.

[LuckyCat]

I don't follow your logic. If Gohan's trouble at getting angry was because of Cell being slightly weaker, his attempts wouldn't be half-hearted since Cell was fully healed. They were half-hearted due to something else, namely Gohan not really wanting to fight and being afraid of stepping up.

Gohan has fought weaker opponents before and gotten enraged, and it never brought out SSJ2. Factor in that Saiyans get stronger when meeting stronger opponents and get pushed to their limits. That's the logic. Normal challenge = normal Gohan, normal fight, Cell has the advantage. Great challenge = only SSJ2 level rage can win, Gohan advantage.

[Lord Beerus]

Nothing tops the pure idiocy of everyone in the Android/Cell arc. It literally keeps the plot going, and that is a bad thing when you have to make your characters stupid to ensure the story progresses.

[Lunatic Fringe]

Nothing tops the pure idiocy of everyone in the Android/Cell arc. It literally keeps the plot going, and that is a bad thing when you have to make your characters stupid to ensure the story progresses.

Except for my boi Piccolo, of course. #NamekianWisdom

Unless you want to count rushing in to stop the Androids from wiping out Vegeta after getting his butt handed to him by #18.

[ekrolo2]

Nothing tops the pure idiocy of everyone in the Android/Cell arc. It literally keeps the plot going, and that is a bad thing when you have to make your characters stupid to ensure the story progresses.

Except for my boi Piccolo, of course. #NamekianWisdom

Unless you want to count rushing in to stop the Androids from wiping out Vegeta after getting his butt handed to him by #18.

I count him not aiming his Flash Grenade at 17, the target it might actually work against as opposed to Cell who he can clearly sense is above him now.

EDIT: Oh! And him being okay with Goku's training instead of killing idea when it comes to Gero, he merged Nail who sensed his entire species be annihilated and yet he's fine with an idea that he knows could have the exact thing happen on Earth. Not his best moment.