What´s the obsession with DB needing to be "serious" ?

[ABED]

Depends on what kind of story you're trying to tell. BoG and Yo Son Goku were basically big reunions where all your friends are meeting back up for some more cool stuff. Resurrection F, which is at it's flimsy core a revenge story had no business being so toothless. You don't bring back one of the most vicious bad guys of your series then have the target of his revenge treat him as a glorified punching bag & joke. You get the villain to learn from his mistakes and put the heroes through a grueling trial which they barely come out of victorious but battered and bruised and in a place where they have to start reconsidering some things.

THere's no one valid way to tell a story. I haven't seen RoF so i can't comment, but there's no rule that says you have to have the heroes reconsider things. Sometimes a good fight against a former villain is perfectly fine.

[ekrolo2]

Depends on what kind of story you're trying to tell. BoG and Yo Son Goku were basically big reunions where all your friends are meeting back up for some more cool stuff. Resurrection F, which is at it's flimsy core a revenge story had no business being so toothless. You don't bring back one of the most vicious bad guys of your series then have the target of his revenge treat him as a glorified punching bag & joke. You get the villain to learn from his mistakes and put the heroes through a grueling trial which they barely come out of victorious but battered and bruised and in a place where they have to start reconsidering some things.

THere's no one valid way to tell a story. I haven't seen RoF so i can't comment, but there's no rule that says you have to have the heroes reconsider things. Sometimes a good fight against a former villain is perfectly fine.

Except the movie doesn't even have that. Freeza is a complete non-threat the instant Goku and Vegeta show up by his own design. His Golden Form gives him the edge a short while but once it starts to fall he is Goku's bitch and even if he managed to beat Goku in pure combat, Vegeta still murders him since he's fresh and roughly the same strength as Goku. It's not fun or interesting. It's literally every time we've seen Freeza come back just made into its own movie. That's why RoF should've gone a different direction for once in the franchises history. I think its secure enough to afford itself a darker, more experimental approach for a Freeza revenge story.

[ABED]

I think its secure enough to afford itself a darker, more experimental approach for a Freeza revenge story.

Would darker really be experimental? The Freeza arc is pretty damn dark.

[ekrolo2]

I think its secure enough to afford itself a darker, more experimental approach for a Freeza revenge story.

Would darker really be experimental? The Freeza arc is pretty damn dark.

Darker in the sense that the heroes actually have lasting psychological consequences from the events where as the series has them shrug it off. Have them feel guilty for leaving the Dragon Balls completely unguarded which sets these events into motion, have Goku and Vegeta's punch junkie antics over reason mentality actually have a consequence that, even if it doesn't stick, leaves them questioning how to deal with things in the future. The movie almost goes here near the end before Goku and Vegeta just laugh it off and say "Nah, f*ck character development, we gotta stay morons or else Toriyama might actually have to put effort into stuff."

[Soppa Saia People]

I don't want it to be super serious all the time, I want it to know when to be serious.

[ABED]

, even if it doesn't stick, leaves them questioning how to deal with things in the future. The movie almost goes here near the end before Goku and Vegeta just laugh it off and say "Nah, f*ck character development, we gotta stay morons or else Toriyama might actually have to put effort into stuff."

Being battle maniacs doesn't make them morons and if the development doesn't stick, that's the same as going "F*ck character development". And Toriyama does put effort into stuff, the artwork and the characters.

I don't want it to be super serious all the time, I want it to know when to be serious.

I wish there was a "like" button.

[Hellspawn28]

I think most of the obsession is from the Western fandom. They think that dark and gritty = good. I saw one youtube comment saying that Super should show the sex between Videl and Gohan because the series needs to be mature for the fans who are not adults. I would like Dragon Ball have a tone similar to ROF since that movie contain plenty of humor while having a generally serious overall storyline.

[ekrolo2]

, even if it doesn't stick, leaves them questioning how to deal with things in the future. The movie almost goes here near the end before Goku and Vegeta just laugh it off and say "Nah, f*ck character development, we gotta stay morons or else Toriyama might actually have to put effort into stuff."

Being battle maniacs doesn't make them morons and if the development doesn't stick, that's the same as going "F*ck character development". And Toriyama does put effort into stuff, the artwork and the characters.

I don't feel like going into the Gero example so I'll throw what the film does. Goku and Vegeta's retconned personalities are that ones too arrogant and the other over thinks everything with neither thinking they can work together. The last point is brought up constantly and both Whis & Beerus state the two of them, if they just stopped their whole punch junkie stupidity and team up, they can murder Freeza and put a stop to this in no time. Whis even tells them they can beat Beerus if they do the same. There comes a point in the movie where things look dire until Whis gives Goku a second chance and Goku takes it.

Goku, in what almost seems like the movie's only redeeming scene, actually suggests for Vegeta and him to work together and even train so they can stop guys like Freeza from blowing up the Earth and nearly killing everyone they love and care about. Vegeta, after hearing what happens is like "pfft, fat chance" and Goku laughs and says "Oh good! I feel the same way!." at which point all hope was lost for this movie. Them coming to agree that they need to work together and preemptively defeat threats is a great example of a dire situation being averted with the characters still keeping in mind the choices that almost cost them everything and learning from their mistakes would've been a great way of keeping status quo and getting some development.

But Toriyama doesn't go there, the two basically block out everything that happened so they can keep being arrogant (Goku), some weird asshole hybrid of his Cell & early Buu Saga self (Vegeta) and punch junkie morons together. This is not effort, this is a writer almost literally walking into the movie and pissing on something he himself keeps hammering home and almost makes happen for the sake of nothing else than it would make it tougher for him to justify them making stupid decisions in the future.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

I think most of the obsession is from the Western fandom. They think that dark and gritty = good.

If i could ask Shenron to erradicate something, it would be that.

[JulieYBM]

Toriyama only ever wrote comics to make money. The fact that some of his work just so happened to please some folks at one point is something Toriyama doesn't really care about. He's probably more concerned with why his balls won't stop itching than if someone doesn't like his current work.

[The Monkey King]

DB doesn't 'need' to be serious but I would like for it to have stories on the same level of seriousness as the Trunks and Bardock specials.

I found those stories to be much more gripping than more light hearted DB stories such as BoG, those are the stories that I would rewatch parts of within my own freetime just to feel goosebumps again.

In BoG it all felt I dunno 'soft' there was no real tension and RoF nigh took the piss with Whis saying 'Oh yeah I can turn back time btw' which made it obvious nothing would be at stake for the whole film, unlike the Freeza saga where I was thinking 'holy shit Goku is getting to crap beaten out of him and he's all out of techniques, how's he gonna pull this off?' And for all we knew the dragon balls were gone.

[Hellspawn28]

Dragon Ball started off as a action adventure comedy series. The series still needs to have humor and gags. History of Future Trunks and Bardock: Father of Goku where both good, but they where so serious that they had no laughs in them. Some fans want the series to be super serious because they refuse to admit that the series is made for kids. The series is always market to kids in elementary and middle school like most Shonen series are. People in Japan view DBZ no different how people in America would view Transformers or Ultimate Spider-Man. A show for kids to watch, nothing more.

[ABED]

Goku, in what almost seems like the movie's only redeeming scene, actually suggests for Vegeta and him to work together and even train so they can stop guys like Freeza from blowing up the Earth and nearly killing everyone they love and care about. Vegeta, after hearing what happens is like "pfft, fat chance" and Goku laughs and says "Oh good! I feel the same way!." at which point all hope was lost for this movie. Them coming to agree that they need to work together and preemptively defeat threats is a great example of a dire situation being averted with the characters still keeping in mind the choices that almost cost them everything and learning from their mistakes would've been a great way of keeping status quo and getting some development.

But Toriyama doesn't go there, the two basically block out everything that happened so they can keep being arrogant (Goku), some weird asshole hybrid of his Cell & early Buu Saga self (Vegeta) and punch junkie morons together. This is not effort, this is a writer almost literally walking into the movie and pissing on something he himself keeps hammering home and almost makes happen for the sake of nothing else than it would make it tougher for him to justify them making stupid decisions in the future.

But that's not their goal to just stop the bad guys. They want to fight them. It's who they are. They aren't superheroes. THey are heroic, but not western comic book heroes who are out to stop the bad guys. They aren't lacking in intelligence, that was not the issue. They're reckless, but not stupid. It's like the Cyborg arc, they weren't being stupid by not searching for Gero's lab, that was never their goal. This is their established character, if you think they are so stupid and wrong, why are you watching? It doesn't even seem like you find them interesting, what value are you getting from this?

[ekrolo2]

Goku, in what almost seems like the movie's only redeeming scene, actually suggests for Vegeta and him to work together and even train so they can stop guys like Freeza from blowing up the Earth and nearly killing everyone they love and care about. Vegeta, after hearing what happens is like "pfft, fat chance" and Goku laughs and says "Oh good! I feel the same way!." at which point all hope was lost for this movie. Them coming to agree that they need to work together and preemptively defeat threats is a great example of a dire situation being averted with the characters still keeping in mind the choices that almost cost them everything and learning from their mistakes would've been a great way of keeping status quo and getting some development.

But Toriyama doesn't go there, the two basically block out everything that happened so they can keep being arrogant (Goku), some weird asshole hybrid of his Cell & early Buu Saga self (Vegeta) and punch junkie morons together. This is not effort, this is a writer almost literally walking into the movie and pissing on something he himself keeps hammering home and almost makes happen for the sake of nothing else than it would make it tougher for him to justify them making stupid decisions in the future.

But that's not their goal to just stop the bad guys. They want to fight them. It's who they are. They aren't superheroes. THey are heroic, but not western comic book heroes who are out to stop the bad guys. They aren't lacking in intelligence, that was not the issue. They're reckless, but not stupid. It's like the Cyborg arc, they weren't being stupid by not searching for Gero's lab, that was never their goal. This is their established character, if you think they are so stupid and wrong, why are you watching? It doesn't even seem like you find them interesting, what value are you getting from this?

Why is it okay for Piccolo and Vegeta to become good guys then? They were established as villains and remained as such until gradually developing into good guys. Why can't Goku and Vegeta, on top of wanting a good fight, put at least some consideration into saving the planet & stopping the bad guy? I don't need them acting like western superheroes, but I don't think I'm asking for much to want them evolve into a place where they realize they're essentially the Earth's only defense. If they know the fight is just for thrills and nothing bad can come of it, okay, let em enjoy themselves.

But when a guy comes to Earth, is a genuine threat to it they have to put real effort into beating, they should learn to let their punch junkie-ness fall by the way side and take the threat out. BoG got under Goku's skin, showed a new side to him and that movies the only thing really keeping me going with the following material. The possibility Toriyama might start exploring other peoples sides and develop the characters which I've yet to see, in-fact he's gone out of his way to regress them but I'm hoping U6 fixes that.

[Froggy]

gags are fine but they should'nt be a primary thing in a series that wants to continue dragon ball z. and dragon ball was not THAT childish. actually western TV had to censor it. most countries never bought it because they found it not fit to western children.
the famous pussy slapping, the nudity (male and female), gay jokes, sexuality, violence etc... Dragon Ball is no children franchise. never has been.

dragon ball z is a violent show and that is extremely important. that is one of the reasons it was so influential, it was able to bring basic issues with violence and animation.
every story get a gag here and there. its called 'comic relief', but it CANNOT be THE story.

the thing is, Dragon Ball Z, in its nature, a violent bloody manga/anime.
super is clearly a little childrens / almost toddlers anime. for eastern and western audience.

and yes, i expect if a god slap a normal character without any powers to die/coma or at least knock out with a serious damage.

[Lord Beerus]

Dragon Ball doesn't need to be "serious", it just needs to find the perfect balance of drama and comedy, without undercutting the threats or villains. The Saiyan arc and the Majin Boo arc are best examples of this that the franchise has produced.

[fadeddreams5]

I don't like it when people say others want the series to be serious because they fail to realize it's for kids. It was always for kids, and I, for one, acknowledge that. However, even though demographics never changed, standards seem to have. It seems things considered "kid-friendly" nowadays in Japan are far more toned down than back in the 80s or 90s. At least, this is the impression Super has given me.

It's honestly just a matter of Drama vs Comedy and personal preference. What do you want to see in Dragon Ball? This series has always had a bit of both. However, the spectrum shifted more towards drama when the Piccolo saga began. I happen to think this saga up to the Cell one were the strongest points of this series. By far. It's not like what I'm asking for in this series never existed. NO! In fact, these are the most popular stories in the manga. Likewise, the Buu saga, while still good, is almost unanimously considered the weakest in DBZ due to the gag elements. I blame this on the fact that it took place right after the Cell Games, which was the complete opposite.

The thing with drama and "serious" stories is that it is easier to take risks, which is what a lot of people crave (e.g. Krillin getting impaled, children being killed on-screen, major characters dying, other characters succumbing to states of shock, etc.), unlike in comedy--specifically, comedy orientated towards a very young group of children--where it's less safe to divert away. The tone has been set in Super, and I doubt that's going to change much.

[ABED]

Why can't Goku and Vegeta, on top of wanting a good fight, put at least some consideration into saving the planet & stopping the bad guy?

They do, just on certain terms - they want to fight one on one.

they realize they're essentially the Earth's only defense.

I believe they do, but knowing that and that being their ultimate goal are two different things.

in-fact he's gone out of his way to regress them

That's not regression, that's just stasis.

Likewise, the Buu saga, while still good, is almost unanimously considered the weakest in DBZ due to the gag elements. I blame this on the fact that it took place right after the Cell Games, which was the complete opposite.

You are being overly simplistic in your analysis. Shows can go back to much lighter tones after a dark season, the big difference is the Buu arc's execution was problematic. While the Buu arc was much lighter, it wasn't the complete opposite. There's still some really heavy moments that aren't there in genuinely lighter arcs like the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai.

[fadeddreams5]

You are being overly simplistic in your analysis. Shows can go back to much lighter tones after a dark season, the big difference is the Buu arc's execution was problematic.

What I mentioned isn't the only reason people consider it the weakest, but I've read the complaint in the past. It was a regression to people who wanted an even more serious, drama-filled story. I personally consider it the weakest for several other reasons.

[Soppa Saia People]

gags are fine but they should'nt be a primary thing in a series that wants to continue dragon ball z. and dragon ball was not THAT childish. actually western TV had to censor it. most countries never bought it because they found it not fit to western children.
the famous pussy slapping, the nudity (male and female), gay jokes, sexuality, violence etc... Dragon Ball is no children franchise. never has been.

dragon ball z is a violent show and that is extremely important. that is one of the reasons it was so influential, it was able to bring basic issues with violence and animation.
every story get a gag here and there. its called 'comic relief', but it CANNOT be THE story.

the thing is, Dragon Ball Z, in its nature, a violent bloody manga/anime.
super is clearly a little childrens / almost toddlers anime. for eastern and western audience.

and yes, i expect if a god slap a normal character without any powers to die/coma or at least knock out with a serious damage.

Dragon Ball is a kid series and you must be pretty dense not to know.