T-Timelines?

[desirecampbell]

Say it confuses the heck out of you. I don't care, your video annoyed me with its errors too and your constant hand gesturing as you talked.

Oh, I didn't mean any offense by that, I just couldn't understand (this whole subject is terribly confusing). And I'm sorry my video annoyed you.

Let's keep an open mind that none of us (including me) has solved this entirely yet. We must also be open to the input from others and things we haven't thought of yet, and allow it to influence the outcome. I am still trying to work it all out. Coming to the conclusion that everytime there is a timejump, there IS a seperation of timelines. Not sure yet, but you may be right on that one. Hardest part is seeing if Trunks' return trips to the future result in a change every time or not. I am thinking in a couple instances it does not, but I have to figure it all the way through to be certain.

I'm also still confused about that, but I'm nearly sure that even if a yimejump back to the future did create a new timeline it doesn't matter. The 'new' timeline would be the old timeline but now with Trunks, and the 'old' timeline would carry on without him. And because it carries on without him nothing happens and we would simply ignore that timeline like we do to the extra timeline created by Trunks' second timejump.

There is no "well I think this" in such a discussion. Let's go with "we know this, therefore this..." That is the only way to reach a mutally agreeable understanding of it all.

Well... there has to be some "I think this" because of the lack of information. Obviously we should all try to back that up with the facts we have, but we can't just go by the few facts we have.
Though I doubt it will be an issue, all the theories presented so far have been well thought out and based in "fact" (as much as we can call them facts from DragonBall ).


Oh, and I'm currently trying to remake my video explanation in flash (so no more of those dreaded hand signals).

[Steven Perry]

Say it confuses the heck out of you. I don't care, your video annoyed me with its errors too and your constant hand gesturing as you talked.

Oh, I didn't mean any offense by that, I just couldn't understand (this whole subject is terribly confusing). And I'm sorry my video annoyed you.

What the...? When did Akira say that? It's not in his previous posts. Anyway, I found the video rather amusing.

Wait a second... I've just gotten a great idea (thanks Akira! I'm starting to see now...)!

EDIT: Actually, no. It doesn't work.



Can't wait to see the flash video! We'll be able to see the lines forming at the same time.

[Akira]

Yeah, Desire must have been responding but not posted yet when I edited my post just minutes after figuring something else out. I took my unecessary comment out when I edited. At that time no one had responded after me yet so I didn't worry about it. Now it just confused the topic. Sorry about that, and sorry Desire.

Everyone has made good points in this topic. I honestly do think we are getting somewhere. When you realize something new, just post a tidbit about it. Share your tips for visualizing things. Maybe something that helped us will help someone else jump past the part we were stumped on.

[Steven Perry]

Well, when that new flash movie is made, it will explain things clearly. I'd do it, but... I have no idea.

[Xyex]

Uh... 'un altered' and 'Goku dying' are not mutually exclusive ideas. There are two 'Future Trunks' - one we see throughout the show who ends up killing the Cell in his own timeline and one who gets his timemachine car-jacked by Cell.

Please. Please. Please. Read what I'm saying. I've gone over this several times now. I NEVER said that Goku dying meant that it was the original time-line. I said that Goku dying of the Heart Virus is direct evidence of the original time-line.

And yes, there are two versions of Future Trunks. One who is killed by Cell and one who kills Cell. However, the fact stands, as estbalished by the manga, that these two Trunks are the same person. They originated from the same time-line, the original time-line.

Alright, I'll outline this all for you again. You're theory does not work. By your own statements, Trunks made the first trip back in time and thus altered the time-line first. This means that Goku recieved warning of the Heart Virus and the Androids. This means that Goku would not have died from the Heart Virus.

This also means that the only place that Future Trunks can originate from is the ORIGINAL TIME-LINE. This then dictates that it is impossible for Cell to have caused a split in the time-lines upon arrival because of Trunks presence in the same past time-line as him. I'll break down the TL's and then explain.

TL1 - Original Time-line. Future Trunks originating point, the originating point of Cell too.

TL2 - Trunks Altered Time-line. Trunks warns of the Androids, gives Goku the Heart medicine. Androids are later defeated by unknown means (Piccolo, most likely). Cell appears 20+ years later after emerging from Gero's lab.

TL3 - The time-line of the anime. Cell's appearance splits this time-line off from TL2 after Trunks has already appeared, while he's in the past.

TL4 - The altered Future TL. The Trunks that exists in TL3 creates this TL upon returning home. Since TL1 Trunks was split into TLs 2 and 3 and the version in TL2 already went home to TL1 and died, the version in TL3 MUST create a new split to TL1 upon returning home as he's not the same Trunks anymore. He's stronger and has knowledge that the other Trunks didn't posess.

There. That is the Time-lines as I see them after over a year of working on this crap.

Now, here's the issue. TL 1 Trunks can only go back in time and appear in 1 time-line. That's it. You can't send him back once and have him appear twice in two different time-lines. Therefore, to get 2 Trunks' from the future you need to split off the past while he's there, which will split him just like everyone else in the past.

By evidence given in the manga it is not possible for there to be two different futures for Trunks to originate from. We know the Trunks we see during the course of the series came from the original and un-altered time-line. This is established by the character statements and the side-story that showed his time.

[desirecampbell]

Please. Please. Please. Read what I'm saying. I've gone over this several times now. I NEVER said that Goku dying meant that it was the original time-line. I said that Goku dying of the Heart Virus is direct evidence of the original time-line.

Geez, sorry for not saying 'from a heart virus', the rest of my statement still stands: there's no reason to believe that Goku only dies (from a heart virus) in the original timeline. If there is some reason to think that, please share with us.

And yes, there are two versions of Future Trunks. One who is killed by Cell and one who kills Cell. However, the fact stands, as estbalished by the manga, that these two Trunks are the same person. They originated from the same time-line, the original time-line.

Really? I was unaware of this. That's a really important peice of information, one that would change my theory considerabley. But what does 'same person' mean? They can't be exactly the same person because, well, there's two of them. Does 'same person' simply mean they both come from a common timeline? Or perhaps it just means they are very similar (if so, my theory covers that).

Alright, I'll outline this all for you again. You're theory does not work. By your own statements, Trunks made the first trip back in time and thus altered the time-line first. This means that Goku recieved warning of the Heart Virus and the Androids. This means that Goku would not have died from the Heart Virus.

Um... what? Is there a problem there? Trunks travels back in time, changes the timeline, in this new timeline Goku doesn't die. I think that's well established.

This also means that the only place that Future Trunks can originate from is the ORIGINAL TIME-LINE. This then dictates that it is impossible for Cell to have caused a split in the time-lines upon arrival because of Trunks presence in the same past time-line as him. I'll break down the TL's and then explain.

Okay, I get it - you haven't watched the video yet. I know the static image of the timeline I made is confusing - any static image is confusing - that's why I made the video I explain why, where, and when the timeline splits.
> Trunks hoes back in time, gives Goku the medicine. You seem to get that.
> Goku doesn't die, the androids show up, Trunks shows up again, the androids are defeated, Trunks goes back to the future. I'm pretty sure you've got that too, right?
> Trunks is about to go back in time to tell Goku and the gang he defeated the androids in his time but Cell kills him and timejumps instead. You know this happens (I assume) but the next part is where you seem to missunderstand.
> Cell arrives in the past (earlier than any other timejump) and thus creates a new timeline. This timeline carries on almost exactly like the original timeline (where this Cell came from). Ie, Goku dies, the androids destroy everything Trunks goes back in time. Now Trunks has just created a new timeline (just like the Trunks from the original timeline did) where Goku doesn't die, Trunks shows up again, and the androids show up - but the Cell comes out of the ground - and that's when this timeline differs from the other similar branches. Gohan kills Cell and Trunks returns to the future, kills the androids there and then kills the Cell from his timeline and goes back in time to tell the Z-Gang something.

It's not that confusing once you realise that there can be multiple timelines that are very simllar to each other.

Now, here's the issue. TL 1 Trunks can only go back in time and appear in 1 time-line. That's it. You can't send him back once and have him appear twice in two different time-lines. Therefore, to get 2 Trunks' from the future you need to split off the past while he's there, which will split him just like everyone else in the past.

Well, that's certainly a good point, Trunks shouldn't be able to timejump across to different timelines (this is a point I bring up in my second timeline video). But there's no way we can have two Trunkses going to the same timeline (by that same logic). If Trunks (1) goes back in time and creates a new timeline (one where Goku doesn't die from a heart virus) and this Trunks cannot return to this timeline, then the only explanation is that a Trunks from this timline goes back in time to the arrivial of the androids. But that doesn't make any sense, the Future Trunks we see showing up believes he also went back in time before, and that in his timeline Goku dies from a heart virus. So there cannot a a Future Trunks from such an altered timeline.

[Steven Perry]

I have yet to read Desire's reply, but just wanted to mention a few things about Xyex's:

And yes, there are two versions of Future Trunks. One who is killed by Cell and one who kills Cell. However, the fact stands, as established by the manga, that these two Trunks are the same person. They originated from the same time-line, the original time-line.

Trunks was born again in B4, making that Trunks absolutely identical to B3's Trunks (nothing has happened to make that timeline differ from B3). They are like clones.

Where the two Trunks differ in terms of physical strength and knowledge is when B4's Trunks goes back in time to discover that the Cell originating from Trunks' split in B4 (thus making this timeline B5) confronts the supposed-to-be-dead Z- fighters. They are the same person, but from different timelines.

(I'm referring to that other timeline map in previous posts)

I'm not sure if anybody is going to back me up on this, but oh well...

[Xyex]

Geez, sorry for not saying 'from a heart virus', the rest of my statement still stands: there's no reason to believe that Goku only dies (from a heart virus) in the original timeline. If there is some reason to think that, please share with us.

Uh... because there aren't any other time-lines where Goku wasn't given the medication?

Really? I was unaware of this. That's a really important peice of information, one that would change my theory considerabley. But what does 'same person' mean? They can't be exactly the same person because, well, there's two of them. Does 'same person' simply mean they both come from a common timeline? Or perhaps it just means they are very similar (if so, my theory covers that).

It means that, up until the time-line split while Trunks was in the past, there was only one time-traveling Trunks. Just like, until Trunks made his changes one his trip back, there was only one Cyborg Freeza, one Goku, one Gohan, etc. The are exactly the same person because there isn't two of them until the time-lines diverge. Then he gets 'split' into two people. Same as how Bulma was split into two and existed both in the past time-line and in Trunks on Future. Trunks now eixsts in the past time-line without Cell and in the past time-line with Cell.

Um... what? Is there a problem there? Trunks travels back in time, changes the timeline, in this new timeline Goku doesn't die. I think that's well established.

Obivously not as you've contradicted this several times with your theory.

Okay, I get it - you haven't watched the video yet. I know the static image of the timeline I made is confusing - any static image is confusing - that's why I made the video I explain why, where, and when the timeline splits.

Actually, yes, I have. And I'm hoping I misunderstood it.

> Trunks hoes back in time, gives Goku the medicine. You seem to get that.
> Goku doesn't die, the androids show up, Trunks shows up again, the androids are defeated, Trunks goes back to the future. I'm pretty sure you've got that too, right?
> Trunks is about to go back in time to tell Goku and the gang he defeated the androids in his time but Cell kills him and timejumps instead.

Yes, that's exactly how I've outlined it too.

> Cell arrives in the past (earlier than any other timejump) and thus creates a new timeline. This timeline carries on almost exactly like the original timeline (where this Cell came from). Ie, Goku dies, the androids destroy everything Trunks goes back in time. Now Trunks has just created a new timeline (just like the Trunks from the original timeline did) where Goku doesn't die, Trunks shows up again, and the androids show up - but the Cell comes out of the ground - and that's when this timeline differs from the other similar branches. Gohan kills Cell and Trunks returns to the future, kills the androids there and then kills the Cell from his timeline and goes back in time to tell the Z-Gang something.

Ok, so you're saying that Cell goes back in time, appears in the past, and for some odd and unexplained reason, just lays in the ground for all of eternity, never to appear, just so that you can have a future identicle to the original time-line, only with Cell in the ground? Alright, then WHY does he appear in the Time-line that Trunks appears in, then? If he never came out of the ground in the TL you claim Trunks is from, why does he in the TL Trunks visits? There is absolutely NOTHING to this theory...

Seriously, this would be like saying that you sent a bomb back in time but it never went off. So you went back to find out why and it goes off before you even did anything. It's not possible. Hence the flaw to your theory. Which is an even worse flaw than the one I *thought* you had... wow.

[desirecampbell]

Uh... because there aren't any other time-lines where Goku wasn't given the medication?

Haha, now it your turn to read

It's a bit jumbled, but I think you should be able to understand that that Goku's given the medicine twice. Arrows are helpful

It means that, up until the time-line split while Trunks was in the past, there was only one time-traveling Trunks. Just like, until Trunks made his changes one his trip back, there was only one Cyborg Freeza, one Goku, one Gohan, etc. The are exactly the same person because there isn't two of them until the time-lines diverge. Then he gets 'split' into two people. Same as how Bulma was split into two and existed both in the past time-line and in Trunks on Future. Trunks now eixsts in the past time-line without Cell and in the past time-line with Cell.

I'm not sure what your getting at... are you trying to say that someone split the timeline while Future Trunks was in the past? Like , Trunks timejumps back in time (splits from his timeline to a second one) then someone else timejumps to that timeline creating another timeline (one with the new guy and Trunks, the other with just Trunks)?
That would be a good explaination on how there would only be one apocolyptice future but two future Trunks (one who kills Cell, one who get's killed by Cell).
Of course, there's no way that could have happened. There would need to be either someone else with a time machine, or Trunks would have had to travel back in time to a point where he was already there. Not that either of those events are impossible - they just didn't happen.

Ok, so you're saying that Cell goes back in time, appears in the past, and for some odd and unexplained reason, just lays in the ground for all of eternity, never to appear,

No, I've said at least twice in this thread that he could have been killed by either #16 (who stated he was stronger than first form Cell) or #17 and #18 durring their rampage. Though 'just staying in the ground' isn't impossible either (just kinda lame).
He didn't emerge until Trunks traveled back in time again, so perhaps it was just some weird 'chaos theory' effect from that.

WHY does he appear in the Time-line that Trunks appears in, then?

Um, you mean 'why does cell emerge from the ground, become perfect, and host the Cell games in the timeline we see in the anime'? Well, he does. We 'see it in the anime'.

There is absolutely NOTHING to this theory...

Someone's starting to hurt my feelings :'(

Seriously, this would be like saying that you sent a bomb back in time but it never went off.

Sigh... maybe it didn't go off. You completely disregard the idea that it couldn't. Why couldn't it just NOT go off?

So you went back to find out why and it goes off before you even did anything. It's not possible. Hence the flaw to your theory. Which is an even worse flaw than the one I *thought* you had... wow.

Wow, now you're just being a jerk. I've been really good about saying you've just 'misunderstood' or 'misread' things - now I'm pretty sure you're just stupid. I say 'A because of B' and then you say 'why does A happen? that's stupid'. Now I've already explained it, and you just don't understand.

The rest of us are being rather nice to each other, you could at least be civil.

If you have a problem with my theory, ask a question, I'll answer it. If you think I'm wrong about something, tell me and I'll explain better, and if I can't: good that means we're moving forward and are improving the theory.



Just to explain this ONE MORE TIME...
Refer to this chart



Timeline 1 - original timeline
Mecha Freeza arrives on Earth, Goku kills him.

Goku dies of a heart virus.

The androids appear. They kill everyone except Gohan.

Trunks tavels back in time <A>.
Trunks soon returns.
Trunks goes back in time again <B> to the same timeline he altered (how this happens is unclear).
Trunks returns and deafeats the androids.

Cell is born.
Trunks is killed by Cell, and Cell uses the time machine to go back in time <C>.

We have no information about the rest of this timeline


Timeline 2 - split from timeline 1 by <A>
Trunks arives <A> and kills Mecha Freeza. Gives Goku medicine.
Trunks returns to the future.

Goku doesn't die.

We have no information about the rest of this timeline


Timeline 3 - split from timeline 2 by <B>
Trunks arives <B>
The androids appear.
The androids are defeated, Trunks returns to the future.

We have no information about the rest of this timeline


Timeline 4 - split from timeline 1 by <C>
Cell arives <C> and burries himeslef in the ground

Mecha Freeza arrives on Earth, Goku kills him.

Goku dies of a heart virus.

The androids appear. They kill everyone except Gohan.

Trunks tavels back in time <D>.
Trunks soon returns.
Trunks goes back in time again <E> to the same timeline he altered (how this happens is unclear).
Trunks returns and deafeats the androids.

Cell is born.
Trunks kills Cell, and uses the time machine to go back in time <F>.

We have no information about the rest of this timeline


Timeline 5 - split from timeline 4 by <D>
Trunks arives <D> and kills Mecha Freeza. Gives Goku medicine.
Trunks returns to the future.

Goku doesn't die.

We have no information about the rest of this timeline


Timeline 6 - split from timeline 5 by <E>
Trunks arives <E>
Cell emerges from the ground.
The androids appear, then Cell appears and (eventaually) becomes 'perfect'.
Cell is defeated, Trunks returns to the future.

this timeline continues as we see it in the anime


Timeline 7 - split from timeline 1 by <F>
Trunks arrives <F> and tells Goku and Co. that he has defeated the androids.

We have no information about the rest of this timeline

[TripleRach]

Timeline 4 - split from timeline 1 by <C>
Cell arives <C> and burries himeslef in the ground

Mecha Freeza arrives on Earth, Goku kills him.

Goku dies of a heart virus.

The androids appear. They kill everyone except Gohan.

Trunks tavels back in time <D>.
Trunks soon returns.
Trunks goes back in time again <E> to the same timeline he altered (how this happens is unclear).
Trunks returns and deafeats the androids.

Cell is born.
Trunks kills Cell, and uses the time machine to go back in time <F>.

We have no information about the rest of this timeline


Timeline 5 - split from timeline 4 by <D>
Trunks arives <D> and kills Mecha Freeza. Gives Goku medicine.
Trunks returns to the future.

Goku doesn't die.

We have no information about the rest of this timeline


Timeline 6 - split from timeline 5 by <E>
Trunks arives <E>
Cell emerges from the ground.
The androids appear, then Cell appears and (eventaually) becomes 'perfect'.
Cell is defeated, Trunks returns to the future.

this timeline continues as we see it in the anime

This seems overly complicated, and too much of it is conjectural. What reason is there to believe that there was another Cell that stayed buried underground for over twenty years in one of the apocalyptic futures?

The anime and manga only make reference to and show evidence of four timelines, and I don't see the point of overly complicating it by assuming more timelines exist just because Trunks went back and forth a few times.

[Xyex]

Trust me. I am being civil.

I have been reading, and I understand what you're trying to imply, and that is why I don't agree with it.

And.... if you can read through your time-line explanation without noticing the *counts* at least 3 flaws in it.... I'm not going to bother trying to debate this with you anymore. You're just so set in your beliefs that all you'll do is ignore what I'm saying anyway.

'sides, Rachel's with me on this, that's enough for me.

[desirecampbell]

Alright, I'm completely confused. I see no problem with my theory, other than Trunks waiting three years instead of eight months) that can't be explained easily.

I know the idea that there was a Cell burried in the ground throughout the apocolyptic future is a bit hard to swallow - but it's not a bad explanation. I've also given another explaination for why Cell (one from a different timeline) is never seen in that timeline: the androids, or #16, encountered and killed him.

And Xyex, I've been rereading your posts too - you've shown no faults in my theory that I haven't explained. If those explainations aren't good enough for you you could at least say as much. And you can't be bothered to write 'three flaws'?

And I'm not "set in my beliefs". If you can show me a better explaination I'll be very happy, but so far you've given only these.

TL1 - Original Time-line
Goku uses IT to get to Earth and kills Freeza and Cold.
Goku dies from the Heart Virus.
19 & 20 appear and are destroyed by SSJ Vegeta.
17 & 18 kill the Z Fighters.
Trunks goes back in time to TL2
Trunks returns and destroys 17 and 18.
Cell kills Trunks and goes back in time to TL3.

TL2 - Unseen Time-line
Trunks defeats Freeza and Cold.
Trunks warns of the Androis.
SSJ Vegeta destroys 19.
17 & 18 are activated.
Piccolo fuses with Kami.
Piccolo destroys 17 and 18.

TL3 - Anime Time-line
The events seen during the course of the anime.

TL4 - Back to the Future
This time-line is created by the return of a Trunks *stronger* than he should be. It's an off-shoot of the original time-line caused by Cell's appearance and intervention in the past. This is the one we see Trunks return to in the series.

I really don't understand this one. Do all timejumps create new timelines? Or just some of them? Where does this *stronger* Trunks come from? This *stronger* Trunks seems to have just appeared out of mid-air.

TL1 - Original Time-line
Goku uses IT to get to Earth and kills Freeza and Cold.
Goku dies from the Heart Virus.
19 & 20 appear and kill the Z Fighters.
Trunks goes back to TL2 and warns Goku and the others.
Trunks manages to destroy 19 & 20 and prepares to go back to tell the others, and to help them. (17/18 never activated.)
Cell appears, kills Trunks, and steals his time-machine.

TL2 - History of Trunks
Trunks destroys Freeza and Cold, warns *only* Goku of the Androids (others don't know).
Goku still dies from the virus, the medicine isn't used soon enough.
17 & 18 appear and kill the Z Fighters.
The Trunks of this time-line goes back in time to TL3.
Trunks returns and destroys the Androids and Cell.

TL3 - Anime Time-line
The events as seen in the anime.

Pfft, this explaination shows two separate Trunkses showing up in the anime's timeline. This is just obviously wrong.


Then there's:

I think, perhaps, that the only way to make the whole thing work is to make EACH individual trip into the past create a new time-line. ALSO have each trip into the FUTURE create one as well. Thus you would have

TL1 - Original
TL2 - Trunks warning
TL3 - Trunks returns home
TL4 - Trunks comes back again
TL5 - Cell appears
TL6 - Trunks returns home again

Here you fail to realize that Cell can't create a new timeline just from comming out of the ground. He creates a new Timeline from using the time machine, and thus his new timeline doesn't interact with any of the other timelines presented there.

Neither of those theories held much water with you either, but you seemed pretty confident of this one:

TL ONE
- Original time-line, Goku kills Freeza/Cold, dies of Heart Virus, Androids appear, Trunks goes back in time to TL2. Eventually destroys Androids and is killed by Cell.

TL TWO
- Trunks kills Freeza/Cold, warns the others of the Androids, goes back to his time and is never seen again.

TL THREE
- Trunks 2nd trip back off-shoots from his appearance. Helps the Z Fighters find a way to defeat the Androids. Returns to the future.

TL FOUR
- Cell appears in what is still TL ONE (he's not altered things yet). When Trunks appears the TL splits, and so does Cell. This is the TL with Cell, but without Trunks ever showing up. Why does this one split? Cell may not have altered anything *yet* but he's sitting there. If some random person in South City who's clueless about what's happening can get split into multiple time-lines, so can Larval Cell. Normally, just being in the past isn't enough to change it, but since the time-line is splitting while he's just sitting there, it is in his case.

TL FIVE
- A copy of TL TWO (Cell hasn't changed anything yet). This is the world in which Trunks warns of the Androids but doesn't come back after leaving.

TL SIX
- Off shoot of TL ONE. Why? Cause we now have TWO Trunks' running around. One that's already returned to TL ONE and another that tries to, but can't, since he already did. Nothing's changed with Trunks, but there's still two of him. So, he creates this alternate future line where he eventually kills the Androids and Cell.

TL SEVEN
- A copy of TL THREE in which Trunks returns to help fight the Androids. At least, until Cell appears. This is the TL where the Cell Games that we see occurs.

Your explaination in TL FOUR makes absolutly no sense. Cell can't timejump without creating another timeline. I'm not going to beat a dead horse by going into that again.
The first couple timlines seem alright but then you begin to become very confused. There's a 'copy' of TL TWO that doesn't seem to be created by anything or do anything. And where'd that 'second Trunks' come from? When were there two Trunkses timejumping around?

Nothing about that theory makes any sense.


Then you start to try and explain...

I don't understand "Cell both not appearing in the same time-line as Trunks and appearing in the same time-line as him"? Do you mean 'using Chaos Theory would mean that there could not be a timeline where there were two Cells (one hiding in the ground, and another being grown)?
If so, you're wrong. You can easily have a timeline where there are two Cells (just like we have two Trunks).

Ok, it's like this. Going by the 4 time-lines theory, we know that there is a time-line where Cell did not appear in the past. Trunks was there, but Cell was not. If you say that simply appearing in the past is enough to split the time-lines, then you can not have a line where he shows up and a line where he doesn't. It's one or the other. Why? Well, let me break down the reasons.

First, let's assume that, even though Cell went back further, Trunks made the first time-line splits since he traveled back first. Ok, so, we now have a time-line in the past that includes Trunks. Ok. Now let's send Cell back in time. He appears a year before Trunks does and splits the time line from that point.

Now we have a time-line that includes Trunks, a time-line that includes Cell, and a time-line that goes along normally. Now, here's the problem. We get to the point when Trunks arrives. Trunks can not appear in two time-lines at once. Only one Trunks went back in time. Therfore, he will appear, just as he did before, in the time-line without Cell. And no Future Trunks will ever show up in the time-line with Cell.

Alright, so, we now see that *that* way is flawed. So, let's change things. Let's now assume that, because Cell went back further, he made the first change to the time-line. Even though he left after, his earlier appearance changes things first.

So, we send Cell back in time and he splits the time-line. We now have a time-line with Cell and the normal time-line. Go ahead about a year and Trunks goes back. There's two possible events here. Trunks will either enter the original time-line creating a split resulting in an identicle event to the last instance, where there's one with Cell, one with Trunks, and one with neither, or he'll enter and split the Cell time-line.

So, now we hit the issue with this process. If he enters the Cell time-line and causes it to split, what do we end up with? Well, we have the original time-line. We have a time-line with Cell. And we have a time-line with both Cell and Trunks. However, we do not have a time-line with just Trunks and no Cell.

Only by having Cell appearing while Trunks is in the past, or having him appear after Trunks does, can you possibly have the set-up that exists in DBZ. If you take the arrival of the character as the divergence point then it is entirely impossible for the events of the series to occur as they did.

while it's true that Cell's timejump goes the furthest back, it's not the first split in the timeline. Because Trunks' timejumps happened 'first' they create separate timelines first.

The problem is thinking 4 dimensionally - it's hard to do. And so most people have a hell of a time wrapping their head around time travel.

Well, there is no 'ture' first. If you think on a linear path with depatures, then Trunks occured first. If you think on a linear path with arrivals, then Cell occured first.

Define "event". His mere presence is a difference, an alteration. A change.

Alright, I'll give an example. Take a large table. Put a rock down on the left side and a rock down on the right side. Now, this table is the 'time-line' and the rocks are the events occuring in the world (people's interactions, creations of technology, deaths, births, etc). Now, take a third rock and put it in the middle of the table. That is your time-traveler.

Note how the third rock is sitting there? It's not changing the other rocks because it's not DOING anything. It's just there. But the world is still happening just the same as it did before. Now move the third rock over and bump one of the other rocks, doesn't matter which one. You have now just changed the course of events.

One little change to something will lead to another alteration, and then another and another. It's called the Ripple Effect. However, you need something to INFLUENCE that change first. The mere presence of someone wont do a damn thing.

And I agree with Olivier Hague, the way Xyex describes 'alteration' is rather slipshod. Trunks himself comments briefly on how things have changed that he couldn't have affected directly (like the Androids numbers, and strength).

That is the Ripple Effect. He changed one thing which lead to changes in other things. We know, for a fact, that the Z Fighter lead VERY different lives in that 3 year span leading to the arrival of the Androids. What we don't know is what this course of differences caused to be different elsewhere, beyond the fact that it delayed Goku's Heart Virus.

I've already commented on specific things there, but basically you just don't seem to grasp the idea that each timeline functions on it's own. You bring up two Trunkses timejumping to the same point in the same timeline - which NEVER HAPPENS. I still don't understand why you think that.


Your biggest problem seems to stem from the idea that the Trunks we see (and love, and know) comes from the original timeline. There's no reason why this must be true, and I've explained how the timeline can work without it.


One more "time"...

TL1 - Original Time-line. Future Trunks originating point, the originating point of Cell too.

TL2 - Trunks Altered Time-line. Trunks warns of the Androids, gives Goku the Heart medicine. Androids are later defeated by unknown means (Piccolo, most likely). Cell appears 20+ years later after emerging from Gero's lab.

TL3 - The time-line of the anime. Cell's appearance splits this time-line off from TL2 after Trunks has already appeared, while he's in the past.

TL4 - The altered Future TL. The Trunks that exists in TL3 creates this TL upon returning home. Since TL1 Trunks was split into TLs 2 and 3 and the version in TL2 already went home to TL1 and died, the version in TL3 MUST create a new split to TL1 upon returning home as he's not the same Trunks anymore. He's stronger and has knowledge that the other Trunks didn't posess.

Again, you don't understand that it isn't Cell comming out of the ground that causes a new timeline, but his appearence from a new timeline. He creates a new timeline as soon as he timejumps just like Trunks does.

And then there's this again 'Since TL1 Trunks was split into TLs 2 and 3'. This is based on the idea that Cell doesn't create a new timeline until he emerges from the ground (which has already been established as stupid, just plain stupid).



To conclude: I really can't understand what you're arguing about. If you can see any 'flaws' in my theory then please TELL ME.

[Xyex]

You obviously either aren't reading or just aren't grasping the basic concepts here... *sigh* and I was hoping to be done with this crap.

Case-in-point of not reading or grasping simple concepts:

I really don't understand this one. Do all timejumps create new timelines? Or just some of them? Where does this *stronger* Trunks come from? This *stronger* Trunks seems to have just appeared out of mid-air.

While this is a varriant of the theory I've built on and established for use in my fics (and the one I've been supporting through the thread) it's still very similar to what I've got. I tossed in some differences mainly for the sake of getting some ideas brewing in the conversation here (hell, until I posted my actual theory, all of my posts were for that specific purpose). Anyway, I'm going off topic....

There's nothing NOT to understand about that time-line set-up. It's as basic and straight forward as you can get. The stronger Trunks originates from the same place as the Trunks in TL2, TL1. When TL2 is split into TLs 2 and 3 by Cell's appearance Trunks is split as well thus creating two Trunks'. One that has already returned to TL1 and been killed by Cell and one that tries to return, can't, creates TL4, and then eventually kills Cell. Where, exactly, is there anything that doesn't make sense?

Pfft, this explaination shows two separate Trunkses showing up in the anime's timeline. This is just obviously wrong.

Wah? Ummm, then obivously yours is wrong because that up there is basicly the same thing just with less time-lines. There aren't 2 different Trunks' showing up in the same time-line. Read before replying, please. Here, I'll break it down for the hell of it.

TL1 Trunks goes back in time, creates TL2 and warns Goku of the Heart Virus. Trunks returns to TL1. He is then preparing to go back again to help Goku and the others with the Androids in the past as he's already destroyed 19 and 20 but Cell comes along and kills him. Cell steals the time-machine and goes back in-time. Him and Trunks of TL2 (second apoctolypic future) appear in TL3.

Why are they both in the same TL like that? Dunno, duncare. Wasn't a working theory, never was. It was tossed out to generate disscussion and nothing more.

Here you fail to realize that Cell can't create a new timeline just from comming out of the ground. He creates a new Timeline from using the time machine, and thus his new timeline doesn't interact with any of the other timelines presented there.

You fail to see that it is impossible for each trip to create a new time-line just upon arrival of the traveller. It's just not possible with the information presented in the series. That aside, I made that little out-line up on the spot, much like you've been doing with yours. Meh, doesn't matter.

Your explaination in TL FOUR makes absolutly no sense. Cell can't timejump without creating another timeline.

That's YOUR theory which, given by the evidence in the series IS IMPOSSIBLE. And you said you weren't set in your beliefs. Pft.

The first couple timlines seem alright but then you begin to become very confused. There's a 'copy' of TL TWO that doesn't seem to be created by anything or do anything. And where'd that 'second Trunks' come from? When were there two Trunkses timejumping around?

Tell me you weren't serious there... please... tell me you have SOME understanding of progression and you don't need EVERY MINOR DETAIL explained to you.... ._.

That copy, TL5, isn't *technically* there at the point of Trunks arrival. It's a place holder listing for a TL that will be in existance later. Cell in the ground + Trunks appearing once = TL with Cell and only one appeance of Trunks. Is that really so hard to figure out? :/

Anyway, that was an old theory that I let go of a long long time ago. Too complicated to maintain and creating a new time-line for each trip forward and back-ward was a pain in the ass. Plus, there were a few notable flaws that I didn't feel like trying to find a by-pass too.

I've already commented on specific things there, but basically you just don't seem to grasp the idea that each timeline functions on it's own. You bring up two Trunkses timejumping to the same point in the same timeline - which NEVER HAPPENS. I still don't understand why you think that.

For the millionth time I never said that that happened. -_- What I was saying was that in order for a person to create a time-line by merely appearing in the past you would need to have Trunks appear in two time-lines at the same time from a single trip back in time in order to maintain the 4 time-line framework established by the series. I.E. TL1 Trunks would have to appear in TL2 AND TL3 at the same instant. Again. Please read before commenting. x.x

Your biggest problem seems to stem from the idea that the Trunks we see (and love, and know) comes from the original timeline. There's no reason why this must be true, and I've explained how the timeline can work without it.

Actually, no, you haven't. There's nothing in the series that presents that the Trunks we see is not the Trunks from the original time-line. All you have done is produce a haphazzard guess that even you can't fully explain and that ignores the established canon. :/

Again, you don't understand that it isn't Cell comming out of the ground that causes a new timeline, but his appearence from a new timeline. He creates a new timeline as soon as he timejumps just like Trunks does.

Again you don't understand that that's not how it works in the DBZ universe. With the framework presented and the facts that exist it is not possible for the appearance in the past to create the split in the time-line. Furthermore, I never said it was Cell emerging from the ground that caused the split, merely that it was Cell's appearance in that time-line. We do not know what happened first. Him attack people or his time-machine being discovered. Either way, that's what established the new course of time.

And then there's this again 'Since TL1 Trunks was split into TLs 2 and 3'. This is based on the idea that Cell doesn't create a new timeline until he emerges from the ground (which has already been established as stupid, just plain stupid).

Actually, no, it's been established as fact based on the facts presented in the series. What has been established as plain stupid is Cell appearing in a time-line and not doing ANYTHING just so that we can have a new Trunks to go back in time in order to fit into your theory.

Anyway, that's it for me. If I feel like getting into this sort of thing I'll just go to MFG.

[desirecampbell]

When TL2 is split into TLs 2 and 3 by Cell's appearance

Sigh, I thought that's what you ment, but (again) I've already explained how that's wrong. It doesn't make any sense for Cell to split the timeline after he's been in the ground for years.
It's two inches above your post...

Again, you don't understand that it isn't Cell comming out of the ground that causes a new timeline, but his appearance from a new timeline. He creates a new timeline as soon as he timejumps just like Trunks does.

If we use your theory we have to throw out logic.

You completly ignore that fact. If such a thing were possible your theory would work - but it's not.

Then you bring up 'two Trunkses going to the same timeline'. My theory would generate the same outcome - but for different reasons.

TL1 Trunks goes back in time, creates TL2 and warns Goku of the Heart Virus. Trunks returns to TL1. He is then preparing to go back again to help Goku and the others with the Androids in the past as he's already destroyed 19 and 20 but Cell comes along and kills him. Cell steals the time-machine and goes back in-time. Him and Trunks of TL2 (second apocalyptic future) appear in TL3.

Not a bad theory, but the Trunks that interacts with the characters in the anime is the same one during both time jumps, that is, he remembers having done both.

You fail to see that it is impossible for each trip to create a new time-line just upon arrival of the traveller. It's just not possible with the information presented in the series.

Eh? Why is it impossible? What 'information'? These are the questions I've been dying to have answered.

That copy, TL5, isn't *technically* there at the point of Trunks arrival. It's a place holder listing for a TL that will be in existence later. Cell in the ground + Trunks appearing once = TL with Cell and only one appearance of Trunks. Is that really so hard to figure out? :/

Not hard to figure out? That that timeline you said was there, wasn't there? Yeah, I should figured that out :rolleyes:

For the millionth time I never said that that happened.

Said 'what' happened? That two Trunkses timjumped to the same point in time?

One [Trunks] that has already returned to TL1 and been killed by Cell and [another Trunks] that tries to return, can't, creates TL4, and then eventually kills Cell

Sigh...

What I was saying was that in order for a person to create a time-line by merely appearing in the past you would need to have Trunks appear in two time-lines at the same time from a single trip back in time in order to maintain the 4 time-line framework established by the series.

So to keep with that theory I'd have to throw out logic? Perhaps we shouldn't use that theory :rolleyes:
Again, why isn't my theory acceptable? In my theory there's no need to change how timetravel works when regarding Cell, there's no multiple Trunkes. I see no flaws in logic or error in continuity. It's got (oh noes) more timelines but that should be a reason to throw it out.

Furthermore, I never said it was Cell emerging from the ground that caused the split, merely that it was Cell's appearance in that time-line.

You mean Cell only created a new timeline when he 'did something to change history'. This has been explained to you, repeatedly. Just being there changes history in some way, to say that history has to change in some 'significant' way is just incredibly asinine. What's 'significant' and what's not? Where's the line?



Sigh, *I* am trying to figure out this timeline fiasco - so is everyone else. Everyone else looks at the 'given' theory and realises that it just doesn't work, so they work on it and show their theories here. Everyone looks and adds constructive points to try and help that person.

*You* on the other hand just tell me that I'm wrong - that'd be fine if you told me why too. What's wrong with my theory? You talk about these "facts presented in the series" but you don't tell me them - thanks, real helpful. My theory has simple, steadfast rules (every timejump creates a new timeline) while you still promote the idea of ambiguity (new timelines are created when someone does something 'to change history', as I decide). You say I have flaws in my logic, yet you fail to point them out - again, not helpful.

If my theory sucks, tell me it sucks. But tell me why too.


But if you want to just leave and not contribute anything - well I was going to say "fine" but it's not, you're a smart guy and you've been thinking about this for three years (though in the last post you changed it to 'a few minutes'), I'd really appreciate your input. It seems like you know information that you're just not sharing.

[Xyex]

I. Can't. Believe. I'm. Posting. Again.

Said 'what' happened? That two Trunkses timjumped to the same point in time?

<snip quote of mine>

Sigh...

Ok, would you PLEASE know what the hell is being talked about before trying to show me wrong. I didn't say ANYTHING about 2 different Trunks never jumping to the same point in time. What I said was ONE Trunks jumping to TWO DIFFERENT TIME-LINES at the SAME time.

So to keep with that theory I'd have to throw out logic? Perhaps we shouldn't use that theory

One, there's more logic involved in my theory than yours. Two, the 4 TL framework isn't a theory. It's what's presented as fact by the series. Three, like it or not, there are only 4 time-lines. Deal with it.

You mean Cell only created a new timeline when he 'did something to change history'. This has been explained to you, repeatedly. Just being there changes history in some way, to say that history has to change in some 'significant' way is just incredibly asinine. What's 'significant' and what's not? Where's the line?

Anything that alters the flow of time is significant. And, before you go spouting off that 'just being there changes the flow of time' crap, there's a little thing called Temporal Displacement. I've been meaning to bring this up but I keep going way off trying to knock some sense into you and forget too.

Anyway, Temporal Displacement is also the means through which Trunks is able to return to the same time-line that he left from on each of his trips through time. Via Temporal Displacement, any person or object that travels through time is 'displaced'. They are... recognized for lack of a better term, by their own time-line as being part of time, however, in the past, they aren't recognized as being part of anything.

Thus, there mere presence changes nothing. They are there but they are displaced, outside of the flow of time, so simply standing there or walking around or what have you causes no affect to the time-stream. Upon directly influencing something that is part of the established course of history they cause a divergence in the time-lines.

The reason is the time-line they are in is still refusing to accept them but they're now affecting things so a new time-line is forged in which they are a 'part'. Thus, any appearances they make during the course of this time-line are merely part of that time-line's history and do not cause further divergences of time.

The actual border of what is and is not significant is hard to pin down. Looking at any real world time theory model is proof enough of this. No one has been able to pin down what, exactly, would denote a change to history. Couldn't it be as simple as kicking a stone a couple inches? Or would it have to be something fairly monumentous? The actual border, however, doesn't matter in application with DBZ. Merely the evidence that whatever that trigger was, it occured while Trunks was in the past.

*You* on the other hand just tell me that I'm wrong - that'd be fine if you told me why too. What's wrong with my theory?
Again, why isn't my theory acceptable? In my theory there's no need to change how timetravel works when regarding Cell, there's no multiple Trunkes. I see no flaws in logic or error in continuity. It's got (oh noes) more timelines but that should be a reason to throw it out.

We are given the following during the series:

1) An established future time-line in which Trunks is killed by Cell.
2) An established future time-line in which Trunks kills Cell.
3) An established past time-line in which Cell does not appear.
4) An established past time-line in which Cell does appear.

The information presented during the course of the series, while some-times grating with previously mentioned information (ala 19 and 20), shows us the paths of time. While plot-holes can and do exist in a few places, it's understandable. Toriyama-sama was making this stuff up as he went from shortly after 19 and 20 appeared for most of the rest of the saga.

What you need to do is to sift through the information that are merely plot-holes created by the change in the story's direction and iron out the given facts as established. In the case of 19 and 20 over 17 and 18 we know that the mention of 19 and 20 originally is plot-hole. Trunks himself states that you can't actually alter time, only create new time-lines. Therefore, it is impossible for two different Future Trunks to appear in that same time-line, thus meaning that it has always been 17 and 18.

Anyway, following the flow of the time-lines, the futures and pasts refrenced, and the worlds that we know the two time-travelers came from, you can see that only 4 time-lines exist. Based on this, any working theory must fit within 4 time-lines to follow what is set up in canon. So, there-in is one flaw.

So, off we go to the next one then, shall we? You have a time-line in which Cell appears and then stays in the ground. He never comes up and out. This entire time-line exists for the sole purpose of creating another future where the Androids have destroyed everything. Barring that this causes an exceedence of the 4 time-line framework established in the series, there's still a large problem with it.

Why does Cell not surface?

It's obvious he doesn't because there is no possible course upon which that universe could unfold to create the time-line Trunks came from otherwise. If Cell had appeared at some point, Trunks would have known of him ahead of time. Not to mention he'd have easily achieved Perfection and be the one rampaging around instead of 17 and 18.

And now we come to our third issue. You've split off time-lines where there's absolutely no point to split them off. If you're going to make each trip to the past a new time-line then each trip to the future should be as well. There's no reason for your 2nd and 3rd TL to be seperated. Not to mention the others.

[desirecampbell]

Xyex, thanks you for continuing the discussion. I'm sorry if I've been comming off as abrasive, I'm not trying to.

One, there's more logic involved in my theory than yours. Two, the 4 TL framework isn't a theory. It's what's presented as fact by the series. Three, like it or not, there are only 4 time-lines. Deal with it.

I haven't seen this saga in quite some time (and then, that was the dub) so I could be mistaken, but I don't remember anyone saying anything about four timelines. I remeber Cell explaining how he killed Trunks, and Trunks explaining about his future - but other than that, nothing.
Did anyone actually say "Trunks absolutly has to be from the first timeline to ever exist"? Or that "Cell and Trunks absolutly have to have come from the same timeline"?

1) An established future time-line in which Trunks is killed by Cell.
2) An established future time-line in which Trunks kills Cell.
3) An established past time-line in which Cell does not appear.
4) An established past time-line in which Cell does appear.

Does timeline 3 have a future Trunks showing up? I'm still unclear as to what happens in each timeline and how their created.

Why does Cell not surface?

Aw c'mon... I've been through this. It's not that he just doesn't come out it's that whatever he does doesn't seem to matter. He might be roaming the hills, he might have been killed by #16 (who we also don't see), he might have been killed by the androids or Gohan. We don't know, we never see him.

And now we come to our third issue. You've split off time-lines where there's absolutely no point to split them off. If you're going to make each trip to the past a new time-line then each trip to the future should be as well. There's no reason for your 2nd and 3rd TL to be seperated. Not to mention the others.

Well, I've been thinking about that. I could add in four more timelines for the 'to-the-future' trips but I thought they'd just be distracting. Similarly, I could just take away those other 'useless' timelines (which on my chart would be A and D) and just merge the timelines that split off of them (so B would become the extension of A, and the same with E and D). And noone seems to include that timeline created by Trunks when he went back in time (the thrid time) - so I guess that's superfluous too.

If I did prune out the 'useless' timelines I would have only four.

A. And original timeline where Trunks get's killed by Cell.
B. An altered timeline where there was no Cell.
C. Another apocolyptic future where Trunks Kills Cell.
D. And another 'altered' timeline that follows the events of the anime.

1) An established future time-line in which Trunks is killed by Cell.A
2) An established future time-line in which Trunks kills Cell. C
3) An established past time-line in which Cell does not appear. B
4) An established past time-line in which Cell does appear. D

-edit-
Oh, I'm assuming that in 3 and 4 'Cell' means 'a Cell from the future'. Is that right?
-end edit-

Ha, they're almost word-for-word (I didn't even try to do that ).

So, neglecting those superfluous timelines my theory hold to the four-timeline rule.


-second edit-
I just thought about the 'temporal displacement' thing with Cell again. How do we know what timeline to split off?

If he justs lays dormant in the timeline without spliting it, he must be split himself when the timeline splits from Trunks' first timejump. Why does Cell change the altered timeline instead of the original timeline?

[Mr. Announcer]

Sorry if this has been brought up before because even though I've been trying to read through this topic carefully it's really hard to keep track of what's being said.

So basically I tried to ignore any floating theories and came to the same conclusions I'm assuming as everyone else: There are two future Trunk's each with their own altered timeline.

The reason that the one Trunks dies is because he was altering the timeline in which he does not encounter Cell. The other Trunks encounters Cell and then destroys him in his own timeline SO! my question would be.....is it at all possible in any theory that the reason that the one Trunks never encountered Cell is because the other Trunks destroyed him and thus that Cell did not travel into the timeline in which he would have encountered the other Trunks? Follow? I'm still trying to draw up a working chart for that but it looks totally crazy (I'm not the analytical type). I just wanted to eliminate the uncertainty that bothers me in the one altered timline in which Cell supposedly just incubates or wanders around. If anyone could help eliminate or justify this theory, thanks.

[desirecampbell]

is it at all possible in any theory that the reason that the one Trunks never encountered Cell is because the other Trunks destroyed him and thus that Cell did not travel into the timeline in which he would have encountered the other Trunks?

The short answer is 'no', the long answer is...

Are you asking 'why didn't Trunks (the one who is killed by the Cell from his timeline, in his timeline) fight Cell while Trunks was in the past'?

Well, I'm still bit fuzzy on Xyex's theory, and Akira's still working on his, but in my theory (which is almost exactly like Steve's) that Trunks doesn't fight Cell in the past because Cell hadn't gone back in time yet. The Cell that goes back in time is from the original timeline, as is that Trunks. Cell kills Trunks and then goes back in time, Trunks has already done his business so-to-speak, so there's no way that Trunks could meet a Cell in the past.

Also, it's good to note that the two Trunkses never inhabit the same timeline. Trunks 1 (from the original timeline, which just above I called 'A') goes back to the year 764 of the original timeline, and can only inhabit his timeline and the new timelines he creates by timetraveling. Trunks 2 (the Trunks we see in the series, who comes from what I called timeline 'C') comes from a timline that splits off at 763 (that's Cell's timejump from timeline 1) so Trunks 2 is from his own timeline and thus can only interact with that timeline and any timelines he creates from timetraveling.

Heh, I hope that wasn't too confusing.

[Mr. Announcer]

OHH! Thanks, that puts things in perspective, I can actually visualize the second Trunks split now.

[Xyex]

Xyex, thanks you for continuing the discussion. I'm sorry if I've been comming off as abrasive, I'm not trying to.

Same.

I haven't seen this saga in quite some time (and then, that was the dub) so I could be mistaken, but I don't remember anyone saying anything about four timelines. I remeber Cell explaining how he killed Trunks, and Trunks explaining about his future - but other than that, nothing.
Did anyone actually say "Trunks absolutly has to be from the first timeline to ever exist"? Or that "Cell and Trunks absolutly have to have come from the same timeline"?

Nothing is ever directly stated but there's nothing mentioned that doesn't 'mesh' between their times. There's nothing that would indicate the presence of two different futures, prior to Trunks killing Cell instead of being killed. So I basicly see trying to create one a completely unfounded guess with no evidence to support it.

Does timeline 3 have a future Trunks showing up? I'm still unclear as to what happens in each timeline and how their created.

Ya. Here, I'll list them in the order they 'happen' in. Helps to keep things clear.

TL1 - Original time-line. Originating point of Future Trunks and Cell.
TL2 - "Unseen" time-line. The one that the Trunks from TL1 created without Cell's interference.
TL3 - Anime time-line. The line split off of TL2 by Cell's interference.
TL4 - Second Future. This is the TL that the Trunks who was split into TL3 creates upon trying to return to TL1.

Aw c'mon... I've been through this. It's not that he just doesn't come out it's that whatever he does doesn't seem to matter. He might be roaming the hills, he might have been killed by #16 (who we also don't see), he might have been killed by the androids or Gohan. We don't know, we never see him.

I highly doubt he'd not try and track down the Androids. And I doubt even more that 16 would actually be able to stop him. Sure, he was stronger than Cell even after Cell had absorbed a lot of energy from people but he still wasn't able to even hold him off, let alone stop him. Cell still got to 17. I just can't see him not making himself known or reaching perfection.

-edit-
Oh, I'm assuming that in 3 and 4 'Cell' means 'a Cell from the future'. Is that right?
-end edit-

Ya, the Cells in 3 & 4 in the old post (2 and 3 in the 'chronolgically ordered' list above) are refering to the ones of the future.

So, neglecting those superfluous timelines my theory hold to the four-timeline rule.

Yes, and with all that crap cut out it makes a lot more sense. Still the issue of a lazy Cell though. XP

-second edit-
I just thought about the 'temporal displacement' thing with Cell again. How do we know what timeline to split off?

If he justs lays dormant in the timeline without spliting it, he must be split himself when the timeline splits from Trunks' first timejump. Why does Cell change the altered timeline instead of the original timeline?

Well, I've thought about that and I've come to this conclusion. He's still 'displaced' himself at the time that Trunks makes his split. As Cell isn't actually *in* the flow of time at the moment, he just sort of follows along. Since he's not part of the line there's nothing actually there to split. Kind of like putting a slice of pepperoni beside a breadstick. No matter how often or which way you cut that breadstick you're not gonna do a damned thing to the pepperoni.

Being displaced he just sort of trailed along with however time was flowing. Trunks appearing and causing time to split caused it to flow down a new path and, as an outside observer, he just got pulled along that way.

Hmm, I think I can explain this easier with a quick analogy (those things come in so handy ). Alright, time is a river flowing from your left to your right. You're standing along the right hand bank of the river outside of time. Walking down along the river bank you reach a point were the river splits into two rivers (this would be Trunks killing Freeza/Cold). You turn to follow the river beside you, the time-line forged by Trunks.

See? The time-line created by Trunks was just the 'closest', in a manner of speaking, to Cell's location outside of time. Thus it was the one he moved along side and, eventually, the one he effected to create his own split.