T-Timelines?

[Xyex]

Sorry for the double post, just continuing this thread from the stuff in the other thread (which will most likely be locked).

I find it so hard to accept Xyex's theory... how can Cell's trip not split the timeline?

I didn't say that it doesn't split the time-line. Just that it doesn't split it right away. Cell (and his stolen time-machine) is still "outside of time" from the moment he arrives until he affects something that actually alters the flow of history. Be that the discovery of his stolen time-machine or him attacking Humans. Then, at that point, a new time-line is forged in which he is a part of.

[Steven Perry]

I didn't say that it doesn't split the time-line. Just that it doesn't split it right away. Cell (and his stolen time-machine) is still "outside of time" from the moment he arrives until he affects something that actually alters the flow of history.

It depends on what you consider big enough to alter history... I guess you're just going by what's presented in the Daizenshuu, right? Those books aren't always accurate, y'know... And, might I add, the author of that particular Daizenshuu didn't study this subject as extensively as us.

My belief is that Cell just being there is enough to alter history.

I'm not sure if I've got this right, but did you say that Cell splits upon Trunks' arrival? How is this possible if Trunks is already dead?

[Xyex]

I didn't say that it doesn't split the time-line. Just that it doesn't split it right away. Cell (and his stolen time-machine) is still "outside of time" from the moment he arrives until he affects something that actually alters the flow of history.

It depends on what you consider big enough to alter history... I guess you're just going by what's presented in the Daizenshuu, right? Those books aren't always accurate, y'know... And, might I add, the author of that particular Daizenshuu didn't study this subject as extensively as us.

My belief is that Cell just being there is enough to alter history.

I'm not going by the Daizenshuu at all here, just the evidence presented in the series. Nothing more. And Cell splitting the time-line upon arrival invalidates the presence of Future Trunks in the same past time-line as Future Cell.

[desirecampbell]

My biggest problem with Xyex's theory is not that Cell doesn't split a new timeline as soon as he timejumps (though my way makes more sense, DragonBall isn't much for 'sense' ).

My complaint is that he apparently appears in the original timeline and is there when Trunks timejumps but he is not 'split' like everything else in the timeline when Trunks timejumps. He should be split into two Cells, one in the original timeline (with no future Trunks showing up) and the altered timeline (with future Trunks showing up twice).

Cell should show up and 'change' both timelines, not just one. Xyex's explaination that the new timeline was 'closer' doesn't make sense. If anything, Cell should've stayed in the original timeline.

My theory has four timelines (if you ignore the extra 'useless' ones, which Xyex's theory does too) and does not have any glaring errors (unless I've forgotten them).

I'm not sure if I've got this right, but did you say that Cell splits upon Trunks' arrival?

Not exacrtly, just after Trunks' arrival. Cell splits the timeline when his egg is found (or something, I don't really understand it).



-edit-
I'm still wondering where this 'four timelines' requirement came from.

[Steven Perry]

Who said there had to be four timelines?

CAN WE HAVE SOME SCANS PLEASE? Who owns that Daizenshuu, damn it?

[desirecampbell]

Who said there had to be four timelines?

Xyex, basically.

Seems to be a common 'requirement'. Never really questioned it myself. Thought it might be from the daizenshuu.

[B-kun]

Yep, it's from the Daizenshuu. There are four listed timelines, all having something to do with Trunks and Cell. Meri has info on them on her site.

[Xyex]

Who said there had to be four timelines?

CAN WE HAVE SOME SCANS PLEASE? Who owns that Daizenshuu, damn it?

Xyex, basically.

Seems to be a common 'requirement'. Never really questioned it myself. Thought it might be from the daizenshuu.

Yep, it's from the Daizenshuu. There are four listed timelines, all having something to do with Trunks and Cell. Meri has info on them on her site.

While it is true that the Daizenshuu lists four time-lines that has nothing to do with my four time-lines. In fact, the Daizenshuu's 4 time-lines seem to imply a 5th (at the least). My 4 come from the fact that that is what is shown to us with absolutely nothing dictating the existance of more than 4 (or even remotely hinting at the existance of more than 4).

My biggest problem with Xyex's theory is not that Cell doesn't split a new timeline as soon as he timejumps (though my way makes more sense, DragonBall isn't much for 'sense' ).

My complaint is that he apparently appears in the original timeline and is there when Trunks timejumps but he is not 'split' like everything else in the timeline when Trunks timejumps. He should be split into two Cells, one in the original timeline (with no future Trunks showing up) and the altered timeline (with future Trunks showing up twice).

Cell should show up and 'change' both timelines, not just one. Xyex's explaination that the new timeline was 'closer' doesn't make sense. If anything, Cell should've stayed in the original timeline.

My theory has four timelines (if you ignore the extra 'useless' ones, which Xyex's theory does too) and does not have any glaring errors (unless I've forgotten them).

"Closer" was the best word I could come up with. I really can't explain it verbally and I have no means to explain it (in an easily to understand format) visually.

What it is is that Cell exists outside the direct flow of time, therefor nothing that changes time changes him. So splits to the time-lines wont split Cell. (Refer back to my bread stick/pepperoni example). Now, as to why he followed the trail of time presented by Trunks' changes to time and not the original time-liene?

Well, he's outside of the time-line going along at its edges. When Trunks appears in the past and makes his changes the time-line splits. Since Cell is outside of time he isn't in the original time-line and isn't split. Aside from this he very well can't just keep going down along the original time-line.

The reason Trunks managed to go back to the time-line he created and not to the original time-line upon his second trip was because you always appear in the 'most recent' time-line. After he made his change it became impossible to go into his own time-line at a later point, he'd always appear in the time-line on the 'outside' of the flow (for lack of a better description). The same holds true for anyone that goes back in time.

If someone were to travel back to before the split and enter the time-line then, then yes, they'd make a new line that was split off the original and would superceede Trunks' line as the 'most recent' thus making any new travellers appear in that line. But, as Cell didn't enter the stream until further along, despite his earlier 'arrival', he entered the one Trunks made and split off that.

Yes, this means that if the Trunks Cell killed hadn't actually died and instead survived Cell's attack, healed, got a new time-machine, and then went back in time to like, 5 days after the Cell Games, he would enter the time-line forged by Cell and split that one, not the one he originally made.

[desirecampbell]

While it is true that the Daizenshuu lists four time-lines that has nothing to do with my four time-lines. In fact, the Daizenshuu's 4 time-lines seem to imply a 5th (at the least). My 4 come from the fact that that is what is shown to us with absolutely nothing dictating the existance of more than 4 (or even remotely hinting at the existance of more than 4).

Well, there should be another timeline created by Trunks after he kills the Cell in his own timeline, we just don't see it.

"Closer" was the best word I could come up with. I really can't explain it verbally and I have no means to explain it (in an easily to understand format) visually.

What it is is that Cell exists outside the direct flow of time, therefor nothing that changes time changes him. So splits to the time-lines wont split Cell. (Refer back to my bread stick/pepperoni example). Now, as to why he followed the trail of time presented by Trunks' changes to time and not the original time-liene?

Well, he's outside of the time-line going along at its edges. When Trunks appears in the past and makes his changes the time-line splits. Since Cell is outside of time he isn't in the original time-line and isn't split. Aside from this he very well can't just keep going down along the original time-line.

Why not? It seems to me that if he's 'outside' of the timeline he shouldn't be thrown into a new timeline, he should continue to travel along the timeline he came from (which would be the original timeline).

The reason Trunks managed to go back to the time-line he created and not to the original time-line upon his second trip was because you always appear in the 'most recent' time-line. After he made his change it became impossible to go into his own time-line at a later point, he'd always appear in the time-line on the 'outside' of the flow (for lack of a better description). The same holds true for anyone that goes back in time.

If someone were to travel back to before the split and enter the time-line then, then yes, they'd make a new line that was split off the original and would superceede Trunks' line as the 'most recent' thus making any new travellers appear in that line. But, as Cell didn't enter the stream until further along, despite his earlier 'arrival', he entered the one Trunks made and split off that.

Well, I don't really like the ambiguity in your theory - but it's a fine theory nonetheless. The rules of time travel (though kinda lame) are consistent throughout - and that's all the theory needs.


I still think mine's better

[Xyex]

Well, there should be another timeline created by Trunks after he kills the Cell in his own timeline, we just don't see it.

No, that one's shown and included in the 4 time-lines I've got listed. Original, Trunks Altered, Cell Altered, Altered Future. As I said, all covered.

Why not? It seems to me that if he's 'outside' of the timeline he shouldn't be thrown into a new timeline, he should continue to travel along the timeline he came from (which would be the original timeline).

Ah, but see, you don't travel along the time you're from. You travel along the path of time itself. And divergences superceede all else. Therefor, any divergences that occur while you are outside of time are what you follow. You stated the reason for this yourself. Trunks goes and makes his changes first. Therefor, anyone entering the time-stream after the occurance of these divergences (no matter when they appered beside time) would enter the diverged time-line. They aren't 'thrown' into anything, it just merely what is there for them to enter.

Well, I don't really like the ambiguity in your theory - but it's a fine theory nonetheless. The rules of time travel (though kinda lame) are consistent throughout - and that's all the theory needs.

I don't really see the ambiguity to it (aside from not being able to pin down a specific 'this changes things, this wont' line, but hell, try and make a real world scientist do that and you'll start a hundred year debate XP).

I still think mine's better

And I still say your Cell is a lazy lay-about.

[desirecampbell]

Ah, but see, you don't travel along the time you're from. You travel along the path of time itself. And divergences superceede all else. Therefor, any divergences that occur while you are outside of time are what you follow. You stated the reason for this yourself.

Actually, my theory is exactly the oposite. My theory states that you travel as close to your own timeline as possible.

Trunks goes and makes his changes first. Therefor, anyone entering the time-stream after the occurance of these divergences (no matter when they appered beside time) would enter the diverged time-line. They aren't 'thrown' into anything, it just merely what is there for them to enter.

I still say it's a bit ham-fisted. But it's time travel and DragonBall, so I shouldn't expect much.

And I still say your Cell is a lazy lay-about. Razz

He's on vacation

[Steven Perry]

While it is true that the Daizenshuu lists four time-lines that has nothing to do with my four time-lines. In fact, the Daizenshuu's 4 time-lines seem to imply a 5th (at the least). My 4 come from the fact that that is what is shown to us with absolutely nothing dictating the existance of more than 4 (or even remotely hinting at the existance of more than 4).

What? The anime does reinforce our theory; there's a timeline where Cell kills Trunks (told by Cell himself), and a timeline where Trunks kills Cell (shown by Trunks), and The History Of Trunks (showing what must have happened in TL1 and TL4). Then it's shown that when you time travel, it doesn't affect the one you came from. This could only mean another dimension has been made. Why would there be exceptions? Use THAT rule (that's been SHOWN in the anime)... and you can piece together the information presented by Cell (when he kills Trunks) into a nice chart. The ending chart would naturally look like the ones already posted.

[Xyex]

While it is true that the Daizenshuu lists four time-lines that has nothing to do with my four time-lines. In fact, the Daizenshuu's 4 time-lines seem to imply a 5th (at the least). My 4 come from the fact that that is what is shown to us with absolutely nothing dictating the existance of more than 4 (or even remotely hinting at the existance of more than 4).

What? The anime does reinforce our theory; there's a timeline where Cell kills Trunks (told by Cell himself), and a timeline where Trunks kills Cell (shown by Trunks), and The History Of Trunks (showing what must have happened in TL1 and TL4). Then it's shown that when you time travel, it doesn't affect the one you came from. This could only mean another dimension has been made. Why would there be exceptions? Use THAT rule (that's been SHOWN in the anime)... and you can piece together the information presented by Cell (when he kills Trunks) into a nice chart. The ending chart would naturally look like the ones already posted.

Ummm, what?

[desirecampbell]

Ummm, what?

My thoughts exactly.

Steve, what are you talking about?

[Steven Perry]

Ummm, what?

My thoughts exactly.

Steve, what are you talking about?

Whoops! Wrong quote...

WHAT?! Stop looking at me like that... Looks like it's time for me to split. Bye!

*runs*

[Akira]

I've been working on this for over a week off and on. I still get hung up a few places. I am thinking of finding a dry erase marker board so I can make changes and test theories more easily. Are you guys actually moving towards the chart and theory I originally worked from?

It is starting to seem if it isn't looked at that way, with four timelines, that it eventually becomes impossible to figure out. I haven't given up yet though.

[desirecampbell]

I've been working on this for over a week off and on. I still get hung up a few places. I am thinking of finding a dry erase marker board so I can make changes and test theories more easily. Are you guys actually moving towards the chart and theory I originally worked from?

It is starting to seem if it isn't looked at that way, with four timelines, that it eventually becomes impossible to figure out. I haven't given up yet though.

I'm actually pretty confident about my theory. Unless anyone can point out something I'm missing.

Just for fun, here's my idea again:

Timetravel works as follows: traveling in time creates a new timeline, back or forwards, every time, no exceptions.
When you arrive in the new time, you split off a new timeline from that point. The new timeline carries on with you (as you are what changed the timeline) and the other timeline (the original one) carries on without you (as if nothing ever happened).
All timelines progress at the same rate, the timeline you just left continues on without you while you're in the newly created timeline. The new timeline you're in doesn't have a future beyond what has happened already (meaning, if you came from the year 785 back to the year 767, you have to remember that 768 hasn't happened yet in your current timeline).
When you 'return' to the future, you're simply going forward in time. If the timeline you're in doesn't have such a future yet (as it almost assuredly doesn't) you are forced back to the last 'branch' of the timeline (which is probably the one you came from).
Therefore these different timelines can be thought of as separate 'dimensions' connected hierarchically. Each of these 'dimensions' are different in some measurable way, such that a time machine could be modified to travel to a specific timeline.

Now, as long as the rules of timeravel are clear, "what happened" easily falls into place.
Goku dies of a heart virus. Androids attack and destroy the world for years. Trunks travels back in time to the year 764 (creating a new timeline, which we'll refer to as A). In this new timeline A, Trunks defeats Mecha Freeza and King Kold, warns Goku and the gang about the androids and returns home (which means traveling back to the future, and because there is no 'future' in timeline A yet, he returns to the next closest timeline, which is the original one). Trunks returns to his own timeline (creating timeline B) to find nothing changed, he recharges and modifies his ship and eventually goes back in time to the year 767 (creating timeline C off of timeline A). Trunks arrives and helps defeat the androids then returns to future (which would be to timeline B, creating timeline D). Trunks defeats the androids in his time and is about to go back in time to tell Goku about it when Cell kills him and jacks his ride. Cell arrives in the year 763 (creating timeline E off of the original timeline), he burries himself in the ground never to be seen (by us) again (fine he's lazy, sue me). Goku dies of a heart virus. Androids attack and destroy the world for years. Trunks travels back in time to the year 764 (creating a new timeline F off of E). Trunks defeats Mecha Freeza and King Kold, warns Goku and the gang about the androids and returns home (to timeline E, creating timeline G). Trunks returns to his own timeline to find nothing changed, he recharges and modifies his ship and eventually goes back in time to the year 767 (creating timeline H off of timeline F). The androids and Cell (from timeline D, who created timeline E) appear and are eventually defeated. Trunks returns to the future (to timeline G creating timeline I). Trunks defeats the androids and Cell and travels to the year 763 to tell Goku about it (creating timeline J off of the original timeline).

Now, that's a bit hard to imagining (especially with all the (to timeline blah, creating timeline blag), so here's a little chart that should help. Re-read the above while pointing with your finger (it's childish but it helps). You should do alright.



Original Timeline-
A - created by Trunks' timejump to 764 (original timeline)
B - created by Trunks' timejump to the future (original timeline)
*C - created by Trunks' timejump to 767 (timeline A)
*D - created by Trunks' timejump to the future (timeline B)
E - created by Cell's timejump to 763 (original timeline)
F - created by Trunks' timejump to 764 (timeline F)
G - created by Trunks' timejump to the future (timeline F)
*H - created by Trunks' timejump to 767 (timeline F)
*I - created by Trunks' timejump to the future (timeline F)
J - created by Trunks' timejump to 763 (original timeline)


The timelines with *s are the 'four timelines' that are referred to in the daizenshuu, they are the main, important timelines. The other timelines are never seen and are completely unimportant, so they can (for such a purpose) be disregarded.


Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong (but I'm pretty confident).

[Steven Perry]

Can we call your theory the "Timesplitter theory?" It sounds... cool. I like Timesplitters (it's almost as good as Red Faction).

Anyway...

Timetravel works as follows: traveling in time creates a new timeline, back or forwards, every time, no exceptions.

So, does this mean Trunks didn't return to the latest part in the future, but altered the history of it (in the original timeline)? If this is true, was there a timeline where Trunks never returned? Poor Bulma... My belief is that Trunks did return to the latest part in the future, making history (not altering it).

The new timeline carries on with you (as you are what changed the timeline) and the other timeline (the original one) carries on without you (as if nothing ever happened). When you 'return' to the future, you're simply going forward in time. If the timeline you're in doesn't have such a future yet (as it almost assuredly doesn't) you are forced back to the last 'branch' of the timeline (which is probably the one you came from).

Erm... there's a flaw there (if you're going by the theory that when you're travelling back to the future the timeline you just made catches up). When Trunks kills Cell in his timeline, there's already a timeline with a future made by Trunks (the one with the Cell games and Trunks' participation). By using your theory, Trunks would return to that one, right? Because he didn't, he must have the ability to choose one of the paths he's already created... and go to his timeline. Or something.

[desirecampbell]

"So, does this mean Trunks didn't return to the latest part in the future"

Well, he did for the first timejump home, but that (because it was timetravel) created another timeline. When he returns to the future the second time, Bulma has moddified his machine to take him to a specific timeline and then back to a specific timeline. That's why he doesn't return to the original timeline/timeline E. If he had returned to the original timeline/timeilne E he would have met up with a Bulma that hadn't seen him return yet.


"My belief is that Trunks did return to the latest part in the future, making history (not altering it). "

Well, to keep the rules of time travel consistent I declared that each and every timejump creates a new timeline. And while he does travel esentually to the furthest point in time (he probably inputs a certain date rather than 'as far forward as possible', plus the second trip home he had a 'lock' on the specific timeline he came from) he still changes the timeline because he timetraveled there. To make a rule like that (going forward to the 'end of time') would bring inconsistency to the theory, which I've tried to avoid.


"Erm... there's a flaw there (if you're going by the theory that when you're travelling back to the future the timeline you just made catches up)."

Heh, that's why I'm not using that theory (all timelines simply advance at the regular rate of time, which means all timelines have a different 'end of time' date).


"When Trunks kills Cell in his timeline, there's already a timeline with a future made by Trunks (the one with the Cell games and Trunks' participation). By using your theory, Trunks would return to that one, right?"
Um, you mean after he's already gone back in time and helped defeat Cell in the Cell games? He timejumps back to point 'X', which is exactly the same point that Cell timejumped to to create the very timeline he's from.

Well, technically the timelines don't split off from point 'X' but point 'X + the smallest possible fraction of time'. Because "as of point 'X'" he hasn't arrived yet, so it's just barely behind Cell's split in the timeline.

Of course, I just pulled that out of my ass... but it seems to work. Of course if Trunks really did end up in a timeline offshooting the one Cell made, he'd still tell Goku and whatever he did. We have no information on what happens in that timeline so it's probably fine to have a Cell (or at least a "lazy Cell") there too.


"Because he didn't, he must have the ability to choose one of the paths he's already created... and go to his timeline."

Well, he does kinda, maybe. I limited Bulma's knowledge of the 'timeline coordenites' to ones that the time machine has traveled to. Though it could be possible for Bulma to extrapolate the 'location' of the other timelines (I mean, it's Bulma).



Right now the only problem I have with my theory is that I still force Trunks to wait in the future for 3 years between timejumps.

[Xyex]

Timetravel works as follows: traveling in time creates a new timeline, back or forwards, every time, no exceptions.

I used to think that once. But it's too many time-lines to keep track of. And, beyond that, Trunks belongs in the future time-line. He's already a part of it so his presence wont change it.

Erm... there's a flaw there (if you're going by the theory that when you're travelling back to the future the timeline you just made catches up). When Trunks kills Cell in his timeline, there's already a timeline with a future made by Trunks (the one with the Cell games and Trunks' participation). By using your theory, Trunks would return to that one, right? Because he didn't, he must have the ability to choose one of the paths he's already created... and go to his timeline. Or something.

You can't go to what doesn't exist. Yes, Trunks forged a time-line with the Cell games occuring. And he forged a time-line where Cell never apperead which would be further ahead, but neither one stretches as far as the original time-line. When Trunks left to return to his time nothing had yet happened beyond the point he was leaving from. That time-line had no future yet.