"Power levels" from the Daizenshuu

[Rocketman]

Now, Piccolo seems very impressed with Vegeta's power after Dende heals him. Is there any other indication that Vegeta gets stronger than Piccolo?

Vegeta can see and dodge attacks that Piccolo can't even sense.

[superstar]

"That doesn't make any sense. If Freeza had 'extra power' and wasn't tierd becaus ehe had more transformations - then he shouldn't have seemed tierd when SSj Goku was beating him up before Freeza went 100%.Just because you can get more power, doesn't mean you have access to it now.

You are not making sense. Freeza was not tired because HE DID NOT USE ALL OF HIS TRANSFORMATIONS! thus meaning he had MORE POWER. Vegeta was stronger than Freeza's 530,000 form (which is Freeza's weakest form). So Freeza went above and beyond to his second transformation to show how he was above vegeta.

No, he wasn't. If Vegeta was stronger than Freeza (even if Vegeta was close to as powerful as Freeza) Freeza would've transformed to make the battle easier. Piccolo may or may not have been more powerful than Freeza's second form, but because Freeza wasn't walking all over him he decided to transform. Freeza doesn't like to fight - he likes to toy with 'ants'. He is quick to take out anyone who could pose a real threat to him (like Dende), but loves to play with the others.

There's no reason to think that Vegeta was anywhere close to Freeza when tey first fought.

You basically just prooved what I was saying look at your post in bold. Freeza's FIRST TRANSFORMATION was not stronger than Vegeta but his second transformations and up were stronger than Vegeta. If Freeza stayed in his FIRST TRANSFORMATION and fought Vegeta the battle could of went either way.

The point I am making is that Vegeta was stronger than Freeza's 530,000 form or just as powerful. I do not care about the other transformations we already know that Vegeta does not compare.

[The Chibi Kiriyama]

So? Scouter's don't seem to be of the highest quality. Scouter's have exploded from far less than 70,000.

There's no reason to think that Vegeta was anywhere close to Freeza when tey first fought.

Ginyu: Is this for real?! Is this...your power...?! 180,000?!

Ginyu makes that comment after using the exact new-on-market scouters on Goku when Goku's finished using the Kaio-ken. Even Jheese's scouter fails to implode upon reading Goku's power. Freeza's scouter, the same exact model, explodes when it detects Vegeta's full power. This puts Vegeta way over 180 thousand. To suggest otherwise is to suggest a massive plothole.

[Onikage725]

So? Scouter's don't seem to be of the highest quality. Scouter's have exploded from far less than 70,000.

There's no reason to think that Vegeta was anywhere close to Freeza when tey first fought.

Ginyu: Is this for real?! Is this...your power...?! 180,000?!

Ginyu makes that comment after using the exact new-on-market scouters on Goku when Goku's finished using the Kaio-ken. Even Jheese's scouter fails to implode upon reading Goku's power. Freeza's scouter, the same exact model, explodes when it detects Vegeta's full power. This puts Vegeta way over 180 thousand. To suggest otherwise is to suggest a massive plothole.

Just half of Freeza's power would be 265,000. That is way above 180,000. So that doesn't at all negate the "Vegeta was around half Freeza's strength or a little more" notion.

Also, I think the scouter's have a problem with sudden leaps, not high numbers. It isn't guaranteed, but huge increases seem to increase the chance of malfunction. I mean, even with the older models, obviously at some point Vegeta, Zarbon, Dodoria, the Ginyu, and Freeza in first and 2nd form had been scouted. Some were stated, it was obvious Cpt. Ginyu knew his team's strength, and Freeza knew his form's powers.

Also keep in mind that the ability to supress one's power is considered by them to be rare, almost unheard of. The scouters were made under the assumption that fighters were simply as strong as they were. Focusing ki to a certain point or supressing ki and raising it for battle beyond what is normally measured took the villains of the 1st two Z sagas off guard. The scouter's were made to track things like "Guy A is 857. Guy B is 2,436." They start exploding when they get things like "That guy is 11,000...no wait 12,000, 13,000, 14,000, 15,000, 16...*crack*" The fast-rising calculations seem to stress the system. How else do you explain Freeza knowing his own PL up to a million, yet we see a scouter break during Goku and Vegeta's first battle?

[desirecampbell]

You basically just prooved what I was saying look at your post in bold.

No, young sir, I didn't.

Freeza wasn't frustrated or angry after grappling with Vegeta, like he was with Piccolo. If Freeza felt he was being challanged in power by Vegeta he would've been frustrated and transformed on his own. That's an important part. On his own. Vegeta goaded him into transforming, Freeza didn't opt for his second for himself.

Freeza's FIRST TRANSFORMATION was not stronger than Vegeta

Again, we can see clearly that Freeza was more powerful than Vegeta in his first form. They attacked each other. Freeza did so half-heartedly, while Vegeta obviously went all out - I've explain this already. Vegeta was weaker than Freeza - by his own admission.

If Freeza stayed in his FIRST TRANSFORMATION and fought Vegeta the battle could of went either way

Really? Either way? Vegeta holds off Freeza for 70 seconds, after which he's gasping for breath - while Freeza acts like nothing happened. Even if Freeza was actually trying there - Vegeta couldn't win.

The point I am making is that Vegeta was stronger than Freeza's 530,000 form or just as powerful. I do not care about the other transformations we already know that Vegeta does not compare.

I know that's what you're trying to do, but look at the facts - Vegeta couldn't handle Freeza at all, an he comments on how he might be able to win with the other's help. He's not as strong as Freeza.

Ginyu makes that comment after using the exact new-on-market scouters on Goku when Goku's finished using the Kaio-ken. Even Jheese's scouter fails to implode upon reading Goku's power. Freeza's scouter, the same exact model, explodes when it detects Vegeta's full power. This puts Vegeta way over 180 thousand. To suggest otherwise is to suggest a massive plothole.

Firstly, 'plot holes'? You're worried about plot holes? In DragonBall? The train's already left on that one.

Secondly, There's no evidence to suggest that certain scouters blow up at certain power readings. That doesn't make any sense.
-edit-
Yeah, what Onikage725 said.

[Onikage725]

The dub, let alone the anime has no pertinence in this thread. It is not a deciding factor!

He was describing the animation, not analyzing the dialogue.

You wanna know whay Freeza was not breathing hard and Vegeta was? That was ONLY Freeza's first form. Freeza had more power and forms after tha Situation, but Vegeta was as strong or stronger than Freeza's first form. Whay do you think Freeza transformed to his second form right after that?

The point is Vegeta was AS strong or Stronger than Freeza's 530,000 form.

Suggesting Freeza had access to higher form power while in a lesser form pretty much negates the whole point of transforming...

I haven't seen this part of the manga, If you can show me the pages, I'd be more than happy to review it too, but as it stands the anime shows Vegeta as much weaker than a 530,000 Freeza. Read my points above, does the manga differ from this? Does the manga give any reason to think Vegeta's over 70,000?

Same impression. The overall sequence isn't as long. The rundown, off the top of my head (correct me anyone if I mix anything up): Freeza shows up and talks some smack. Vegeta retorts. He claims that the earthlings are getting stronger and stronger, especially Gohan. He also claims that he is close to becoming a Super Saiya-jin. Freeza laughs, claiming he's glad he took a moment to talk to them, as that thought is amusing. I think he asks Vegeta is he's forgotten who the hell he is, and he powers up. Gohan says something about them not being able to win, and Freeza does his whole ant/dinosaur comparison. I think Vegeta says something to piss him off. Either way, Freeza lunges, Vegeta grabs his arm. Freeza swings with the left, Vegeta grabs that. They grapple and break off. Freeza is calm, and he smirks. Vegeta is huffing. He regains composure and claims that the 3 working together can win, then he tells Freeza to go ahead and transform.

Now, Piccolo seems very impressed with Vegeta's power after Dende heals him. Is there any other indication that Vegeta gets stronger than Piccolo?

We basically just have that to go on. While I do think Vegeta was stronger than Piccolo, due to Piccolo's surprise (he said before for Dende to heal him, claiming he could handle Vegeta if need be. Then he seemed genuinely surprised at how strong Vegeta was), I would like to add in Piccolo's defense that his not seeing those early attacks likely had to do with surprise and angle. He and the others were head on. Vegeta was up and to the side. If someone wizzes a baseball at your face and catches you off guard, you stand a good chance at having your nose broken. Someone watching from the side could see the whole event pretty clearly however. Furthermore, Freeza wasn't using much power. In fact, when Vegeta could track his moves, he would pretty much be like "oh I'm sorry, I forgot to try" and then disappear from sight. Later on, 50% Freeza tries to kill Goku and Piccolo sees it and intercepts the hit for Goku. So clearly he could see attacks like that. Why he missed the first two...like I said, maybe it was surprise/fear or maybe he wasn't as alert (as opposed to later when he knew what Freeza was capable of).

[Drunken Master]

There's no way Vegeta was equal to or stronger than Freeza's first form. There's no evidence to back it up, and all the evidence against it. Why do you believe such a thing superstar? Vegeta was straining, sweating and his veins were popping out while he was grunting/yelling. Freeza however was just grappling with an angry face. He transformed to show that Vegeta could never catch up to him, also to scare him, and to easily beat them using his patented 'minimal effort' kind of fighting style that he likes to use. He likes to play with his 'food'.

[superstar]

No, young sir, I didn't.

Freeza wasn't frustrated or angry after grappling with Vegeta, like he was with Piccolo. If Freeza felt he was being challanged in power by Vegeta he would've been frustrated and transformed on his own. That's an important part. On his own. Vegeta goaded him into transforming, Freeza didn't opt for his second for himself.

Again, we can see clearly that Freeza was more powerful than Vegeta in his first form. They attacked each other. Freeza did so half-heartedly, while Vegeta obviously went all out - I've explain this already. Vegeta was weaker than Freeza - by his own admission.


Really? Either way? Vegeta holds off Freeza for 70 seconds, after which he's gasping for breath - while Freeza acts like nothing happened. Even if Freeza was actually trying there - Vegeta couldn't win.


I know that's what you're trying to do, but look at the facts - Vegeta couldn't handle Freeza at all, an he comments on how he might be able to win with the other's help. He's not as strong as Freeza.

Do you understand what you are saying? If freeza FIRST FORM was more powerful than Vegeta after all of that powering up he should have KO'D Vegeta not STRUGGLE trying to make both of his punches connect at FULL FORCE. Hell Vegeta did not attack, Freeza did and Vegeta did not go flying anywhere. Freeza got no results. The reason for Freeza's energy not depleting like Vegeta's was because Freeza had more transformations and power.

Vegeta was as strong or stronger than Freeza's first form!

[desirecampbell]

Do you understand what you are saying? If freeza FIRST FORM was more powerful than Vegeta after all of that powering up he should have KO'D Vegeta not STRUGGLE trying to make both of his punches connect at FULL FORCE.

Again, I must remind you that Freeza did not use his full force. I can't make that clear enough. Freeza never uses his full power. He doesn't really know how, he's used to "playing with his food". He only uses enough power to beat his enemy, not enough to kill him outright. Furthermore, he wasn't trying to attack a Ginyu Force level fighter (which Vegeta was, at this point), Freeza expected Vegeta to be about the same as the last time he saw him: 24,000. Vegeta's two or three times that now. Think about trying to pick up a carton of milk, thinking it was empty. You won't pick it up. You'll look like a fool who can't pick up a kilo. It's because you misjudged the weight, you used too little force. That's what Freeza did. He used enough force to hurt a 30,000 level warrior, not enough to hurt Vegeta (at that time).

Hell Vegeta did not attack, Freeza did and Vegeta did not go flying anywhere. Freeza got no results. The reason for Freeza's energy not depleting like Vegeta's was because Freeza had more transformations and power.

Again, that's just stupid. If having further forms made you invincible noone would ever transform. Please listen to me. If you say this again, I'm going to call you retarded.

Vegeta was as strong or stronger than Freeza's first form!

Please stop saying that. It makes me think you're retarded.

[Super DC]

Vegeta can't be less 180,000 first off or the new model of scouter wouldn't have shattered (the same exact model as Ginyu's). Freeza also powered up right before he charged at Vegeta. So he wasn't at a resting power any more. Vegeta also not only caught Freeza's hand but held it at bay. That would put Vegeta in the 400,000 range other wise the power gap would be to big. Look at all the other fights.

Goku and Piccolo were unable to block Raditz's punches and kicks.
Tenshinhan tried blocking someone over twice his strength and lost his arm.
Vegeta couldn't react to Goku's kaio-ken x 3.
Vegeta couldn't defend off the attacks of monster Zarbon at 24,000.

In any battle with a person being over twice the power of the other could the hero manage a grapple let alone hold the punch back.

edit: Just to add Freeza believed that Vegeta and his friends killed Ginyu and his goons. Freeza wouldn't back when he yelled out right they were going to pay. Piccolo said Freeza powered and Freeza created an aura around him. These point out Freeza was powering up and pissed at the time. Showing no reason not hold back at his humilators.

[desirecampbell]

Vegeta can't be less 180,000 first off or the new model of scouter wouldn't have shattered (the same exact model as Ginyu's). Freeza also powered up right before he charged at Vegeta. So he wasn't at a resting power any more. Vegeta also not only caught Freeza's hand but held it at bay. That would put Vegeta in the 400,000 range other wise the power gap would be to big. Look at all the other fights.

Goku and Piccolo were unable to block Raditz's punches and kicks.
Tenshinhan tried blocking someone over twice his strength and lost his arm.
Vegeta couldn't react to Goku's kaio-ken x 3.
Vegeta couldn't defend off the attacks of monster Zarbon at 24,000.

In any battle with a person being over twice the power of the other could the hero manage a grapple let alone hold the punch back.

Bah! Please read the page, all these points have been oblitterated slready.

Scouters don't seem to burst at certain levels, but at rapid increases. Freeza wasn't going full force of Vegeta - I can't explain that any better than I have.

[superstar]

Again, I must remind you that Freeza did not use his full force. I can't make that clear enough. Freeza never uses his full power. He doesn't really know how, he's used to "playing with his food". He only uses enough power to beat his enemy, not enough to kill him outright. Furthermore, he wasn't trying to attack a Ginyu Force level fighter (which Vegeta was, at this point), Freeza expected Vegeta to be about the same as the last time he saw him: 24,000. Vegeta's two or three times that now. Think about trying to pick up a carton of milk, thinking it was empty. You won't pick it up. You'll look like a fool who can't pick up a kilo. It's because you misjudged the weight, you used too little force. That's what Freeza did. He used enough force to hurt a 30,000 level warrior, not enough to hurt Vegeta (at that time).

Your analogies are not the same they are terribly wrong. Freeza POWERED UP TO HIS MAX IN HIS FIRST FORM. which means that he was going all out in his WEAKEST STATE against Vegeta. Freeza was pissed, he attacked Vegeta and STRUGGLED TRYING TO PUNCH VEGETA. Do you know what that means? Freeza did not lay a hand on Vegeta. If freeza was not going all out why was Freeza's Face straining with his teeth grinding with mad facial expressions? Freeza was NOT playing with Vegeta in his 530,000 form.

Again, that's just stupid. If having further forms made you invincible noone would ever transform. Please listen to me. If you say this again, I'm going to call you retarded.

Freeza having more forms that INCREASED HIS DAMN POWER is not stupid. Freeza did the same damn thing against PICCOLO, struggling and fighting with Piccolo in his second form and then transforming to his third form.

Please stop saying that. It makes me think you're retarded.

Please stop using cheesy analogies to support your claims, it is not working.

[desirecampbell]

Please stop using cheesy analogies to support your claims, it is not working

You, sir, are retarded. It's not cheesy, it's accurate. Looking at the episode (like I just did) you can clearly see the Freeza underestimated Vegeta's power. Freeza was not overwhelmed, he was surprised.

[Duo]

Scouters do not blow up at "rapid increases".

When Dodoria and Zarbon are reading Vegeta's Ki when powering up against Kiwi, Zarbons "older model" explodes, but Dodoria notes that his is a newer model and doesn't suffer such a problem, and easily reads Vegeta at 24,000.

You'll also notice that Raditz scouter (being used by Bulma) exploded when Goku his 22,000, and Zarbons scouter exploded at the exact same level. This proves they were the same model and topped out at 22,000.

Thus proving that lines of scouters have a certain limit to what they can read. Older, mediocre scouters top out at 22,000. Newer models can go above 180,000. Exactly how far is unknown.

[Xyex]

Do you understand what you are saying? If freeza FIRST FORM was more powerful than Vegeta after all of that powering up he should have KO'D Vegeta not STRUGGLE trying to make both of his punches connect at FULL FORCE. Hell Vegeta did not attack, Freeza did and Vegeta did not go flying anywhere. Freeza got no results. The reason for Freeza's energy not depleting like Vegeta's was because Freeza had more transformations and power.

You obviously don't understand how this works, so I'll try and explain it too. Just, please, actually read this. I'm not here to waste my time... Anyway, it's like this. When you're in a lower form, or even just supressing your power, you don't have access to the power that's up in the higher forms (or the full extent of your power if you're just supressing it).

This is easily noted in the Goku Vs. Vegeta fight. Base Vegeta is utterly exhausted and panting heavily before going Oozaru. By your views that wouldn't have happened, Vegeta wouldn't have been tired because he had more power in another form. But it just does not work that way. You have access only to the power of your current state and only to the level you are currently powered-up to (though it's a simple matter to power-up further).

So it doesn't matter if Freeza maximum power in his 4th Form was 90 trillion gazillion. 530,000 was his first form maximum and anything that would have strained that power would have strained him. Vegeta didn't come close to straining Freeza who wasn't even maxed out yet. At the most, Vegeta's power was probably 250 or 300 thousand.

Scouters do not blow up at "rapid increases".

When Dodoria and Zarbon are reading Vegeta's Ki when powering up against Kiwi, Zarbons "older model" explodes, but Dodoria notes that his is a newer model and doesn't suffer such a problem, and easily reads Vegeta at 24,000.

You'll also notice that Raditz scouter (being used by Bulma) exploded when Goku his 22,000, and Zarbons scouter exploded at the exact same level. This proves they were the same model and topped out at 22,000.

Thus proving that lines of scouters have a certain limit to what they can read. Older, mediocre scouters top out at 22,000. Newer models can go above 180,000. Exactly how far is unknown.

Maybe it was different in the manga, but I remember in the anime that Dodoria didn't have his scouter on when Zarbon's blew. He turned it on after, once Vegeta was already powered-up. So that can't even been considered as proof that it wouldn't have blown from a sudden quick increase since it didn't experience it.

Ginyu's scouter survivng to 180,000 can be attributed to the same thing. Goku was closely managing his power when he used the Kaio Ken there. He was making sure that Ginyu got a good look at his power increases so there wouldn't have been a sudden sharp increase there either.

Personally, I think it's a combonation of the two. Newer models are better and thus can handle more power and sharper increases than the older models. It's just as much how fast the power is climbing as it is how much of a power it is, IMO.

[vl]

Ginyu's scouter survivng to 180,000 can be attributed to the same thing. Goku was closely managing his power when he used the Kaio Ken there. He was making sure that Ginyu got a good look at his power increases so there wouldn't have been a sudden sharp increase there either.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Kaio-ken works this way. I thought it should increase Goku's power in an instant, therefore resulting in a pretty rapid increase that obviously didn't do anything to Ginyu's scouter.

Edit: I think Goku even mentioned something like: "My power increased a lot in an instant."

[Onikage725]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Kaio-ken works this way. I thought it should increase Goku's power in an instant, therefore resulting in a pretty rapid increase that obviously didn't do anything to Ginyu's scouter.

In the Saiya-jin Saga, yes. In the Freeza Saga it seems more like he'd mastered it and could control it to use it more as a normal power up. In the first saga it was a big deal. He'd call out, his muscles would bulge, an aura would blaze, and he'd instantly increase. When Goku fought Ginyu, he slowly charged. In fact, he didn't hit 90k til after he started (meaning he was supressing power during his scuffle with Ginyu) and we only get the 90k based on calculation from the 180k max.

And to reply to Duo about the scouters, I think newer models can handle more. However I still point out that Freeza knew his 2nd form PL. And supposedly he hasn't transformed in quite some time, implying that when he scouted himself (or had someone check him out or what have you) he wouldn't have had access to new models (well maybe new at the time, but not the ones used on Namek).

Also, the point about 22,000 is interesting but doesn't negate the fact that in both cases it didn't break until a sudden charge up. Zarbon even says it's faulty.

Let me put it another way. If scouter's auto detect (Zarbon wasn't looking directly for Vegeta and he was some distance away), then his scouter should have broken day in and day out just from being near Freeza. And Dodoria does in fact turn his on after Zarbon's explodes to check the level. One of Freeza's low-level henchmen checks for Namekians after. If it was just not counting above 22k, then his should have xploded due to Vegeta still being revved up (and, again, there is Freeza).

[Rocketman]

However I still point out that Freeza knew his 2nd form PL.

Doesn't Freeza say something like "If any instrument could read my power, it would measure over a million..." That implies no scouter can read that high, and Freeza is estimating his 2nd Form power by how it feels compared to his 1st Form.

[Duo]

However I still point out that Freeza knew his 2nd form PL.

Doesn't Freeza say something like "If any instrument could read my power, it would measure over a million..." That implies no scouter can read that high, and Freeza is estimating his 2nd Form power by how it feels compared to his 1st Form.

Great point!

Also, I have to beg the question...why would Toriyama-sensei have 2 scouters of the same model explode upon hitting the same number? He wouldn't include if not for a reason.

Also, although it wasn't instantaneous, Goku was increasing his power level by about 10,000 per second when he was displaying the Kaio-ken for Ginyu. That's monsterous compared to 2,000 per second when he was powering into Kaio-ken x3 on Earth. The only reason he didn't shoot it into 180,000 instantly was because he didn't need to, because such an instant increase would (most likely) put a bigger strain on his body. It wasn't for display, just to conserve himself.

[desirecampbell]

However I still point out that Freeza knew his 2nd form PL.

Doesn't Freeza say something like "If any instrument could read my power, it would measure over a million..." That implies no scouter can read that high, and Freeza is estimating his 2nd Form power by how it feels compared to his 1st Form.

Possibly. It's just as likely he was talking about the fact that there were no scouters around anymore.